Who is (in your opinion) the best Villain OOTS has faced so far?

[strikeeagle]

Whose the best villian?

We've got
Xykon - The first and primary antagonist, who intends to subjugate the world to him via arcane means and rule like a God for ever. His favorite things include watching his TeeVo and watching people die helplessly even if they are his own minions.

Redcloak - In comparison to the his one dimensional moustache twirling boss Redcloak has been involved in a decades long con to trick Xykon into letting him get access to the portals seeking to improve the lot of Goblinkind throughout all the world and save his people regardless of the sacrifice he personally has to make. He posses a whole souled devotion to elevating Goblinkind everywhere.

Nale - Elan's twin brother with a goatee, Nale is the lead of the Linear Guild, and the evil opposite of Elan. Thrice he has sought to vanquish the Order of the Stick, and thrice been defeated. Nale's ambition is to "rule the world" but seems to be much more myopically focused on defeating his good twin brother Elan. He loves Sabine a succubus from the Lower Plans and complicated elaborate plans, as well as gloating.

Tarquin - Elan's evil father, he serves as the real power behind the throne of all of the Western Kingdoms and is bent on building an evil empire, however unlike Xykon who prefers mystical means to accomplish it, Tarquin is attempting to do so by forging a lasting empire through blood. Like his good son he loves dramatic moments and stories, enjoying life's pleasures, and being in charge. Unlike his evil son he also is willing to compromise for long term plans, and shows respect even to his opponents so long as his goals are not hindered.

Miko Miyazaki - Originally a paladin of the Sapphire Guard she become the living embodiment of Lawful Stupid, driven to fanaticism by her belief that all around her had been corrupted by evil she eventually ended up slaying Lord Shojo, causing her to fall as a Paladin, right as the Hobgoblin army of Redcloak arrived at Azure city, depriving the city of leadership and contributing to its downfall. She enjoys nothing as she sees any form of indulging in the pleasures of the flesh as a form of weakness and corruption.

Who am I missing, who did I mis-characterize, whose the best villain?

[Peelee]

Who am I missing

Hel, Kubota, Samantha, Adult Black Dragon, Vampire Durkon, probably more I cant think of at the moment.

[strikeeagle]

I'll give you I forgot Kubota and Samantha.

Would Vampire Durkon be considered a villian though, or would Hel be the primary protagonist of that adventure?

[Fyraltari]

Hel, Kubota, Samantha, Adult Black Dragon, Vampire Durkon, probably more I cant think of at the moment.

Bozzok, the Archfiends, Malack and the vampire Exarch come to mind.

I'll give you I forgot Kubota and Samantha.

Would Vampire Durkon be considered a villian though, or would Hel be the primary protagonist of that adventure?

Durkon* had his own agenda (kill Roy and make the dwarves pay) beyond Hel's was the main antagonist to be defeated gfor a significant portion of the book, so yes.

Edit: Also I should probably answer the question: For now my vote would be Durkon* he was clever, by far the most closely linked to a member of the Order and his defeat and whole concept was excellent and very well executed.

However, Redcloak and Xykon aren't far behind and their story isn't over yet so I am liable to change my mind.

Also, are we counting side-books villains?

[KorvinStarmast]

Whose the best villian?

Who's the best villain? Maybe take one off of the list:
Miko Miyazaki
She's an antagonist, not a villain.

My vote is for Xykon. He's lasted through multiple books.

Durkula had an interesting arc with Durkon, but I found the character mostly annoying and the book a bit bloated. (The whole demigods / broken table / meeting bit was IMO long and drawn out.

Tarqin had a few decent moments but only lasted one book and ended up 'meh' by the time it was over.

Redcloak has too many issues.

[DrGoblyn]

For me it's Tarquin. He's the best schemer, is truly ruthless, knows how to make things happen while staying in the shadows, and has the resources, companions, knowledge, and intelligence to reach his goals.

Plus I think he's just the most compelling character aside from Redcloak. His motivations, and his execution of those motivations, are interesting, attainable, lofty, and hugely consequential without falling into a classic trope as far as I can tell.

[brian 333]

Therkla. As an half orc, she has always felt inferior.Craving praise and validation, she allowed herself to be manipulated by Kubota, performing his dirty deeds for the occasional proverbial pat on the head.
When she was assigned to murder Elan, her world changed. His beauty and charm was the opposite of everything she saw in herself, and an immense personal attraction rendered her mission impossible to perform.
Defeated by love, which was only strengthened by Elan's acceptance of her as a person. Elan made no pretense that he could ever reciprocate her affection, which only strengthened her unrequited love for him. Her final wish was granted as she died in his arms, defeated, but victorious.

[Mike Havran]

Tarquin is the finest villain the comic has, because his plot elevates the actual concept of villainy to an entirely different level and perspective. The fact his ego prevents him from realising the full potential of his plan as of now is neither here nor there.

[Crimsonmantle]

See username.

Therkla was great and would have made a fine girlfriend but she's a lot less of a 'villain' than Miko.

Other personal favorites include Thog, Jirix and the pet iguana.
Edit: And Tsukiko.

[Precure]

Tarquin, with Kubota as a close second.

Miko and Therkla weren't actual villains, and they didn't really "face" Redcloak yet.

[LadyEowyn]

For me it’s Redcloak. I love tragic villains with a sympathetic greater cause - especially when, as in the case of OOTS, the cause they’re fighting for is treated as valid by the narrative. And on top that he’s dangerous and his funniest lines are when he’s being a nerd (“Some of got passing grades in chem…”). He’s the only villain I’ve seen who had a transformative moral realization about the value of life…that only made him more dangerous (War & XP). Just a fantastically-written character.

Tarquin’s a great concept too, though.

[Alcore]

I feel it is Xykon with Nale following close behind. They are the only ones with depth. Tarquin seems to personally make himself flat being trope/narrative aware. The rest are “man behind the man” (Redcloak sort of fits apart of dragon status) or strawmen.

[Fyraltari]

I feel it is Xykon with Nale following close behind. They are the only ones with depth. Tarquin seems to personally make himself flat being trope/narrative aware. The rest are “man behind the man” (Redcloak sort of fits apart of dragon status) or strawmen.

I don't understand what you mean by "strawmen" in this context. The characters don't really represent any real-world position?

[Alcore]

I don't understand what you mean by "strawmen" in this context. The characters don't really represent any real-world position?

Have you checked the gaming community? Frequently seen player and character types? Not everything is about politics…

[hamishspence]

Miko and Therkla weren't actual villains, and they didn't really "face" Redcloak yet.

Miko was a villain in the same sense that Javert was a villain - and The Giant had no problem stressing that Javert was a villain to him, and not a mere "antagonist".

I absolutely consider Javert a villain, full stop. And not in a weak, "All antagonists are villains," sort of way. I mean I find Javert's actions (and especially his inactions) over the course of the novel to be villainous.

I thought Javert was "supposed" to be Lawful Neutral (Hugo didn't use alignments). In fact, I think the only way he could be more Lawful Neutral is if he wore a sign saying "I'm Lawful Neutral". You saying Lawful Neutral people are villains?

No, I'm saying they can be villains, based on their actions. In the same way that Miko is a villain. Maybe not mustache-twirling do-it-for-the-lulz villains, but villains nonetheless.

Given that context, I'd have to say Miko belongs on a list of OOTS villains.

[Peelee]

Have you checked the gaming community? Frequently seen player and character types?

No, I haven't. What does it mean?

[Fyraltari]

Have you checked the gaming community? Frequently seen player and character types? Not everything is about politics…

I mean, Miko is obviously "how not to play a paladin" the character*, so if I squint I see how you could call her a strawman, but beyond her? Is Malack representative of a kind players? Is Bozzok? Kubota? Tsukiko?

*And there's an interpreation of Tarquin as a railroading GM, too.

[Precure]

Miko was a villain in the same sense that Javert was a villain - and The Giant had no problem stressing that Javert was a villain to him, and not a mere "antagonist".





Given that context, I'd have to say Miko belongs on a list of OOTS villains.

I disagree with him because villain shoud be evil, at least in D&D context.

[strikeeagle]

Realized I forgot the most important villain of all.

The trees. Massive hit points, numerous limbs with which to make an attack and enemies of Thor and all Dwarven kind.

[Precure]

Realized I forgot the most important villain of all.

The trees. Massive hit points, numerous limbs with which to make an attack and enemies of Thor and all Dwarven kind.

Also not villains.

[dancrilis]

No, I haven't. What does it mean?

I think it might be like looking at a cloud - it means what you want it to mean.

The closest I could logic myself into was 'a character that is thinly fleshed out - and as such may as well be a strawman (i.e a character who's 'realness' falls apart on scrutiny)'.

[brian 333]

I was thinking character types used so often they become stereotypes without much else to support them.

[hamishspence]

I disagree with him because villain shoud be evil, at least in D&D context.

Despite the name, the Exemplars of Evil 3.5 D&D splatbook specifically states that villains do not have to be Evil - that Non-Evil villains do exist, as one "villain archetype".

And, conversely, Champions of Valor states of Valorous Heroes that "most are Good, some are Neutral, and a rare few are evil, but recognise that some evils must be battled".

In D&D, you can have an Evil valorous hero - accepting that you can have a Neutral (or even Good, in the case of early Miko, and Gin-Jun from the O-Chul story) villain is not a stretch - D&D is not a straightforward "heroes are always Good, villains are always Evil" universe.

[Liquor Box]

I agree that Miko is an antagonist, not a villain. I don't know whether the Giant is right that Javert is a villain, but either way it's not relevant to whether Miko is or not.

Miko has no evil plan, she intends to accomplish no horrible deeds. She does do one clearly evil thing, but it is not really important to the plot. While all villains can be antagonists, not all antagonists are villains.

A few people mentioned characters who the OP didn't nominate. But IMO, even if they are villains, they are not realistic contenders for the best villain in the comic. The have been minor characters compared to Nale&co, Xykon, Reddy and Tarquin&co.

I think Xykon is the best villain by some margin. He's hilarious, he's really smart and is often a step ahead of the party, he has a real sense of menace, he's inextricably linked to the heroes, he has charisma, he's a near overwhelming threat in combat.

Redcloak, Tarquin and Nale are ok, but I feel like the party always had their number. I reckon the Order would have defeated them all quite quickly, not just from a combat perspective, but because they all seem to have such easily exploited weaknesses.

[hamishspence]

I agree that Miko is an antagonist, not a villain. I don't know whether the Giant is right that Javert is a villain, but either way it's not relevant to whether Miko is or not.

Miko has no evil plan, she intends to accomplish no horrible deeds.

You don't need an evil plan, to be a "D&D villain". Javert is relevant, as a "You don't need to be evil yourself to be a villain" starting point - "Javert is a villain", followed by "LN character characters can be villains" followed by "Miko is a villain".

I thought Javert was "supposed" to be Lawful Neutral (Hugo didn't use alignments). In fact, I think the only way he could be more Lawful Neutral is if he wore a sign saying "I'm Lawful Neutral". You saying Lawful Neutral people are villains?

No, I'm saying they can be villains, based on their actions. In the same way that Miko is a villain. Maybe not mustache-twirling do-it-for-the-lulz villains, but villains nonetheless.

[Liquor Box]

You don't need an evil plan, to be a "D&D villain". Javert is relevant, as a "You don't need to be evil yourself to be a villain" starting point - "Javert is a villain", followed by "LN character characters can be villains" followed by "Miko is a villain".

You say D&D villian, but I'm not sure the term means anything different in a D&D story than in any other media.

I'm not sure there's much to be gained by talking about whether precisely where the definition of a word like villain begins and ends - especially since it is the word describing something so nebulous. She doesn't fall within what I think of as a villain, or some others it seems. But others (like the Giant) appear to disagree.

It's not settled, and I see there is much discussion on the villain status of Javert:
https://www.quora.com/Was-Javert-the...is%C3%A9rables

If anything is determinative, it's the OP including Miko in his list of potential options. So I suppose when he posed the question he meant to villain to be wide enough to include Miko. So if you want to pick Miko, go for it.

[Bedinsis]

Well since Miko was allowed to be labelled villain in this thread, I'd say Miko. She thought she was doing the right thing.

[Mic_128]

No one's suggested The Snail? A totally underrated villain.

[brian 333]

Javert and Miko have some points in common, but what makes them both villains is, they both do what they do for extremely selfish reasons.

Jean Valjean is a stain on his reputation. How dare he defy Javert's authority? He must be punished! It has nothing to do with law or justice. Everything Javert does is based on his obsession and conviction that in his righteous judgement he cannot be wrong. It's all about Javert.

The Order is a stain on Miko's reputation. How dare they defy her authority? They must be punished! It has nothing to do with law or justice. Everything Miko does is based on her obsession and conviction that in her righteous judgement she cannot be wrong. It's all about Miko.

Assumption of the power of absolute judgement
Obsession and assumed infallibility
Incapacity to believe they can be wrong
Assuming everything is about, or a reflection on, them

Yes, indeed, both have the traits of a villain.

[Fyraltari]

Javert and Miko have some points in common, but what makes them both villains is, they both do what they do for extremely selfish reasons.

Jean Valjean is a stain on his reputation. How dare he defy Javert's authority? He must be punished! It has nothing to do with law or justice. Everything Javert does is based on his obsession and conviction that in his righteous judgement he cannot be wrong. It's all about Javert.

That's not true at all. When the Jean Valjean lookalike is arrested in his stead, Javert goes to M. Madeleine (the real Valjean) and offered his resignation for having suspected him of being Valjean. When confronted with catching either Valjean or Thénardier and the Patron-Minette gang, he went after the gang because he recognizes that they are worse than Valjean by every metric.

His unrelenting desire to capture Valjean comes from his need to believe the French legal system is infaillible, because he was raised in prison. He joined the police because he was taught from infancy that, as the son of criminals (and very likely as half-Romani) he was destined to be a criminal and so, set himself to be as lawful as humanly possible. He based his entire worldview around the idea that to be a good person is to abide the law and it is the realization that Valjean could be a good person and a criminal that drives him to suicide.