New Games of Thrones TV Series Premieres on Sunday

[Ramza00]

A very mixed bag, I think the best scene was the council at the start. There were a few others, but the casualness of the conspirators 'of course, we were plotting. This was always the plan regardless of what you or the king wanted.' was just perfect.

I thought the final sequence was horrible. It's big dumb DRAMA, final season GOT not first season. Complete spectacle over any semblance of reality. It wasn't even say lawful stupid, just stupid stupid.

Are you asking the Queen Who Never Was…

Spoiler: What are we asking?

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…to engage in the profane act of Kinslaying? The most vile act possible in the eyes of gods and men?

Yes I am asking her to do it, she can have a little Fratricide as a treat.

[Thomas Cardew]

Are you asking the Queen Who Never WasÂ…

Spoiler: What are we asking?

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Â…to engage in the profane act of Kinslaying? The most vile act possible in the eyes of gods and men?

Yes I am asking her to do it, she can have a little Fratricide as a treat.

Spoiler

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[In universe] (1) Kin-slaying is moderated by degree. Even given the circular nature of the family tree, Rheanys is their 2nd cousin once removed. Kinslaying is a matter of degree and Robert Baratheon isn't reviled as a kinslayer despite killing his 2nd cousin and seizing the throne. No one made any comment on Daemon killing his first cousin once removed a single episode ago. So we're well within the realm of acceptable societal degree as presented in the show.

(2) She's already decided to fight against them, by escaping and informing Rheanya. The preview of the next episode makes it clear she thinks the greens are 'coming for your children' for her nominal and actual grandchildren. She lets the threat to her grandchildren survive instead of ending it.

(3) The 'queen who never was who was'. A woman willing to sacrifice her claim for peace and the good realm, who is at peace with that decision, who is shown to not care about legacy, is going to refrain from killing the 6 people who responsible for an inevitable war? A war that she's already decided to join the other side of? She really wouldn't sacrifice her reputation to end a war in its cradle?

[Out of universe] This show has complete failed to show in ANY way that it considers kinslaying as 'the most vile act possible'. It's presented as something that's EXPECTED to happen not an unthinkable act. If you're going to pretend there's a social taboo strong enough to cause someone to take insanely stupid actions you need to SHOW that. Instead, we get a smart character acting in a stupid way for no reason and a nonsensical scene for the sheer spectacle. Have her flee on a ship. Or show her flying away on the dragon. Having it burst through the floor and be literally a word away from stopping the ensuing chaos is stupid spectacle for spectacle's sake that requires a character to make stupid choices that are out of character for her.

[KorvinStarmast]

Spoiler

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[In universe] (1) Kin-slaying is moderated by degree. Even given the circular nature of the family tree, Rheanys is their 2nd cousin once removed. Kinslaying is a matter of degree and Robert Baratheon isn't reviled as a kinslayer despite killing his 2nd cousin and seizing the throne. No one made any comment on Daemon killing his first cousin once removed a single episode ago. So we're well within the realm of acceptable societal degree as presented in the show.

(2) She's already decided to fight against them, by escaping and informing Rheanya. The preview of the next episode makes it clear she thinks the greens are 'coming for your children' for her nominal and actual grandchildren. She lets the threat to her grandchildren survive instead of ending it.

(3) The 'queen who never was who was'. A woman willing to sacrifice her claim for peace and the good realm, who is at peace with that decision, who is shown to not care about legacy, is going to refrain from killing the 6 people who responsible for an inevitable war? A war that she's already decided to join the other side of? She really wouldn't sacrifice her reputation to end a war in its cradle?

[Out of universe] This show has complete failed to show in ANY way that it considers kinslaying as 'the most vile act possible'. It's presented as something that's EXPECTED to happen not an unthinkable act. If you're going to pretend there's a social taboo strong enough to cause someone to take insanely stupid actions you need to SHOW that. Instead, we get a smart character acting in a stupid way for no reason and a nonsensical scene for the sheer spectacle. Have her flee on a ship. Or show her flying away on the dragon. Having it burst through the floor and be literally a word away from stopping the ensuing chaos is stupid spectacle for spectacle's sake that requires a character to make stupid choices that are out of character for her.

OK, now that you put a little more meat onto that bone, I admit that I fully expected

Spoiler: I have not read the prequel books so I don't know what is supposed to happen

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For the dragon to breath and to melt down those on the dias/by the throne.

That she chose otherwise may be explained in the next episode, but doing what I expected to see would have been a satisfying choice (to me) given what the plotters had been up to and what they were trying to pull off not to mention

Spoiler: A brief scene much earlier in the show

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Making her a prisoner in her own room

That her grandkids by Rhaenyra are illegitimate was covered in a previous episode when she had that discussion with Corlys, and she seems (to me) to be at peace with that truth.

[Ramza00]

Spoiler

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[In universe] (1) Kin-slaying is moderated by degree. Even given the circular nature of the family tree, Rheanys is their 2nd cousin once removed. Kinslaying is a matter of degree and Robert Baratheon isn't reviled as a kinslayer despite killing his 2nd cousin and seizing the throne. No one made any comment on Daemon killing his first cousin once removed a single episode ago. So we're well within the realm of acceptable societal degree as presented in the show.

(2) She's already decided to fight against them, by escaping and informing Rheanya. The preview of the next episode makes it clear she thinks the greens are 'coming for your children' for her nominal and actual grandchildren. She lets the threat to her grandchildren survive instead of ending it.

(3) The 'queen who never was who was'. A woman willing to sacrifice her claim for peace and the good realm, who is at peace with that decision, who is shown to not care about legacy, is going to refrain from killing the 6 people who responsible for an inevitable war? A war that she's already decided to join the other side of? She really wouldn't sacrifice her reputation to end a war in its cradle?

[Out of universe] This show has complete failed to show in ANY way that it considers kinslaying as 'the most vile act possible'. It's presented as something that's EXPECTED to happen not an unthinkable act. If you're going to pretend there's a social taboo strong enough to cause someone to take insanely stupid actions you need to SHOW that. Instead, we get a smart character acting in a stupid way for no reason and a nonsensical scene for the sheer spectacle. Have her flee on a ship. Or show her flying away on the dragon. Having it burst through the floor and be literally a word away from stopping the ensuing chaos is stupid spectacle for spectacle's sake that requires a character to make stupid choices that are out of character for her.

This is a Mourning Play / a Trauerspiels

Spoiler: Theory which I try my best to make fun

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This is a Mourning Play / a Trauerspiels … which is a type of Tragedy but different than Aristotle tragedy with its rules, it’s formal structures, patterns, and repetition.

The most famous version of a Mourning Play is Shakespearean tragedy, but the genre is actually defined by less famous and less talented writers and Shakespeare was the most exemplar of this style.

… In their obsessive focus on courtly intrigue and princely bloodlust, these playwrights break with the mythic tradition of classical tragedy and create a new aesthetic based on the tense interplay between Christian eschatology and human history. Foreshadowing his later interest in the concept of history, Benjamin concludes that, in these plays, history "loses the eschatological certainty of its redemptive conclusion, and becomes secularized into a mere natural setting for the profane struggle over political power."

So it is always full of doubt, contradiction, crossroads, tensions, dynamics, etc. GRRM favorite quote on writing comes from William Faulkner “The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself”

So back to your points. Yes kinslaying in history of Westeros both in the past and the later future is often found ways to be justified. Justified to your individual human heart, justified to the body politic such as the small folk and the nobles who extract resources, time, and taxes from the small folk, justified to the faith, and justified to the king / warlord at the top of the heap.

[In universe] (1) Kin-slaying is moderated by degree. Even given the circular nature of the family tree, Rheanys is their 2nd cousin once removed. Kinslaying is a matter of degree and Robert Baratheon isn't reviled as a kinslayer despite killing his 2nd cousin and seizing the throne. No one made any comment on Daemon killing his first cousin once removed a single episode ago. So we're well within the realm of acceptable societal degree as presented in the show.

(2) She's already decided to fight against them, by escaping and informing Rheanya. The preview of the next episode makes it clear she thinks the greens are 'coming for your children' for her nominal and actual grandchildren. She lets the threat to her grandchildren survive instead of ending it.

(3) The 'queen who never was who was'. A woman willing to sacrifice her claim for peace and the good realm, who is at peace with that decision, who is shown to not care about legacy, is going to refrain from killing the 6 people who responsible for an inevitable war? A war that she's already decided to join the other side of? She really wouldn't sacrifice her reputation to end a war in its cradle?

It is still kinslaying, even if one can find ways to justify it, but all conflict is about ways of justifying it. Treason, Kinslaying both taboo, Desire and Drive, Fear and Guilt.

[Out of universe] This show has complete failed to show in ANY way that it considers kinslaying as 'the most vile act possible'. It's presented as something that's EXPECTED to happen not an unthinkable act. If you're going to pretend there's a social taboo strong enough to cause someone to take insanely stupid actions you need to SHOW that. Instead, we get a smart character acting in a stupid way for no reason and a nonsensical scene for the sheer spectacle. Have her flee on a ship. Or show her flying away on the dragon. Having it burst through the floor and be literally a word away from stopping the ensuing chaos is stupid spectacle for spectacle's sake that requires a character to make stupid choices that are out of character for her.

I can not really answer this here to my satisfaction with the rules of this forum talking about real life history, society, culture, and politics. Furthermore it is speculation, even if I feel it is settled enough even if this stuff is contested.

But to answer and not answer this aspect of European culture is modeled after the words tied to Guest and Host (also variants to the word Host like Hospitality, Hospice, Hotel) in many European languages. But even though there is a common origin, thousands of years removed, each culture over time modified these customs to the challenges of the day. They found new ways to justify them, yet we still see those language artifacts even though there are dozens of variations of this concept.

When all of life is uncertain, when your psyche life and mind is full of tensions, a defense mechanism is creating obsessions, rituals, projections, etc, etc. It is like there is a Totem and a Taboo!. These magical artifacts, these totems, represent the kings power incarnated, his legitimacy. Likewise there is taboos tied to these rituals. Why is the blackfyre sword special? Well ritual and repetition, but before the ritual there was this king Aegon, and then Aegon made that Valyrian sword special while concealing the secret ritual about his Valyrian dagger.

It is all ritual, till someone breaks the wheel (of drive). A mourning play has different rules of repetition with its tragedy than an Aristotle tragedy. It is not the gods who create the taboo, it is man in its repetition who sustain the taboo (until they break it) regardless of the origin of the taboo. The origin does not really matter, there is no true mythical origin no certainity of redemptive conclusion. Complaining one genre’s repetition is not following another genres rules with repetition is like complaining House of the Dragon is not a romantic comedy 🎭

[Thomas Cardew]

OK, now that you put a little more meat onto that bone, I admit that I fully expected

Spoiler: I have not read the prequel books so I don't know what is supposed to happen

Show

For the dragon to breath and to melt down those on the dias/by the throne.

That she chose otherwise may be explained in the next episode, but doing what I expected to see would have been a satisfying choice (to me) given what the plotters had been up to and what they were trying to pull off not to mention

Spoiler: A brief scene much earlier in the show

Show

Making her a prisoner in her own room

That her grandkids by Rhaenyra are illegitimate was covered in a previous episode when she had that discussion with Corlys, and she seems (to me) to be at peace with that truth.

Spoiler

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I agree that's what SHOULD have happened. But it makes for a very short show since it's a civil war between the two sides, and you can't have one side get melted at the start. That's why they shouldn't have put the characters in a position where that's what SHOULD have happened.

I doubt they'll explain it. Supposedly in the BTS post credit stuff, the directors said she did it 'because she didn't want to do that to another mother.' Which makes me think it'll never be brought up again. It's just standard Hollywood plot armor/ idiot ball carrying, which is why I compared it to late season GoT instead of the early seasons.

Her grandsons aren't legitimate/blood yes and she was/is at peace with that. But her granddaughters (from Daemon + Leanna) are legitimate and she wanted the land/titles to pass to them. Since Daemon married Rhaenyra those granddaughters are a weaker but still plausible and dangerous claim to throne for the Greens. And when they come to eliminate the threat as she KNOWS they're coming to do, they are going to be thorough.

[Vahnavoi]

Uh, guys. Hey guys. This isn't rocket science. One woman had a moment with another and decided to spare them out of sympathy. To paraphrase what one of the characters says in the very show you're watching, "refraining from murder is not weakness". Nor is it stupidity. Unlike us the audience, Rhaenys does not act with full foreknowledge of how it will all come to an end. Some decisions that make sense to her will of course make us cringe, as is usual for tragedy and dramatic irony.

[KorvinStarmast]

Her grandsons aren't legitimate/blood yes and she was/is at peace with that. But her granddaughters (from Daemon + Leanna) are legitimate and she wanted the land/titles to pass to them. Since Daemon married Rhaenyra those granddaughters are a weaker but still plausible and dangerous claim to throne for the Greens. And when they come to eliminate the threat as she KNOWS they're coming to do, they are going to be thorough.

Good point. I'd forgotten that wrinkle.

One woman had a moment with another and decided to spare them out of sympathy. To paraphrase what one of the characters says in the very show you're watching, "refraining from murder is not weakness".

She was one of the potentially flaming lumps of flesh. Unlike Blanche, she relied on the kindness of strangers political enemies. So did the two nobles who got walked out, under armed guard, from the throne room.

Unlike us the audience, Rhaenys does not act with full foreknowledge of how it will all come to an end. Some decisions that make sense to her will of course make us cringe, as is usual for tragedy and dramatic irony.

I am pretty sure that Rhaenys is under no illusions of what a succession crisis triggers: murder or exile of those not in the 'correct' faction (depending on the faction one is allied to).
We also got to see in this episode Allicent making an appeal, or an attempt to build a bridge, to Rhaenys.
That was gonna be tough

Spoiler: how she had been treated

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given how the 'lock her up in her room for a while' bit went.

[Ramza00]

Uh, guys. Hey guys. This isn't rocket science. One woman had a moment with another and decided to spare them out of sympathy. To paraphrase what one of the characters says in the very show you're watching, "refraining from murder is not weakness". Nor is it stupidity. Unlike us the audience, Rhaenys does not act with full foreknowledge of how it will all come to an end. Some decisions that make sense to her will of course make us cringe, as is usual for tragedy and dramatic irony.

Yes it was “mercy”, but mercy works better if both recognize it and operate with it as future alliances, or you are a king / power and it is making peace.

What’s the tv show but not the book line that littlefinger uttered? “We only make peace with our enemies. That's why it's called 'making peace'.”

Edit, what are the gifts of the seven again? Mother grant one Mercy. Father is judgement. Warrior is Courage (a specific type of strength). Smith is the mender of Strength. Maiden is forgiveness and innocence. Crone is wisdom and guidance. The Stranger is rarely prayed too.

[2D8HP]

Queen Alicent nee Hightower gave the theme away when she spoke of “guiding the men to peace” to Auntie Targaryen, and this is the tragedy of it, all three Queens are sympathetic (well Auntie’s dragon likely did stomp on some small folk, but we didn’t see them in close up), but the men around them they are acting through are far less so.

My guess is the nominally Valerian but likely Strong boys will be the most sympathetic of the males (the younger Targaryens certainly aren’t), and that brings to mind Viserys “the Peaceful” Targaryen, who is presented as being a good King (or at least not malevolent) in regards to the small folk, which seems unusual for his line.

There’s also foreshadowing of a brother vs. brother twins on opposite sides of a civil war if I don’t miss my guess.

All in all, I think this is actually better than “Game of Thrones” was

[runeghost]

Queen Alicent nee Hightower gave the theme away when she spoke of “guiding the men to peace” to Auntie Targaryen, and this is the tragedy of it, all three Queens are sympathetic (well Auntie’s dragon likely did stomp on some small folk, but we didn’t see them in close up), but the men around them they are acting through are far less so.

My guess is the nominally Valerian but likely Strong boys will be the most sympathetic of the males (the younger Targaryens certainly aren’t), and that brings to mind Viserys “the Peaceful” Targaryen, who is presented as being a good King (or at least not malevolent) in regards to the small folk, which seems unusual for his line.

There’s also foreshadowing of a brother vs. brother twins on opposite sides of a civil war if I don’t miss my guess.

All in all, I think this is actually better than “Game of Thrones” was

In its first season, HotD is giving its predecessor's best seasons a run for their money.

One difference I'm really enjoying that in GoT (both Martin's stories and the TV show), what we see happening is ultimately all driven by events years earlier around Robert's Rebellion. While finding out what really happened is interesting, it also ends up very drawn out, preventing us from really understanding all the underlying drives for people's actions. With HotD, and its timeskip, we started from a point of calm and peaceful unity (Viserys as king, with everyone accepting him, and hope for a an eventual peaceful succession), and watched the patterns, the actions, relationships and motivations, that end up driving the coming civil war from small events years earlier. It's quite an achievement, and I think they're actually improving on the source material on average. (Their version of Helaena, for example, has a lot more character than the book's version.)

[Callos_DeTerran]

Queen Alicent nee Hightower gave the theme away when she spoke of “guiding the men to peace” to Auntie Targaryen, and this is the tragedy of it, all three Queens are sympathetic (well Auntie’s dragon likely did stomp on some small folk, but we didn’t see them in close up), but the men around them they are acting through are far less so.

My guess is the nominally Valerian but likely Strong boys will be the most sympathetic of the males (the younger Targaryens certainly aren’t), and that brings to mind Viserys “the Peaceful” Targaryen, who is presented as being a good King (or at least not malevolent) in regards to the small folk, which seems unusual for his line.

There’s also foreshadowing of a brother vs. brother twins on opposite sides of a civil war if I don’t miss my guess.

All in all, I think this is actually better than “Game of Thrones” was

Three queens? What?

Also Rhaenera? Sympathetic? That's a big no from me, haha. Alicent? Sure. The old woman, if that's who you're referring to as the third queen? Can definitely see that! But the daughter of the King who was being handed the throne despite little indication she deserved it and who spent her entire childhood willfully spitting in her father's face and fractured the realm out of personal lust? That's not sympathy coming from my end. The only redeemable thing I've seen from Rhaenyra is....er....she let her beard live instead of killing him? And that might not have been intentional from her mind, that's not super clear. Also she loves her kids, but that's to be expected from a mother. Is she cool? Kind of, yeah. But not sympathetic. Right now she has a lot in common with Cersei which is a fine argument for a good villain but not a sympathetic character.

[KorvinStarmast]

But the daughter of the King who was being handed the throne despite little indication she deserved it and who spent her entire childhood willfully spitting in her father's face and fractured the realm out of personal lust? That's not sympathy coming from my end. The only redeemable thing I've seen from Rhaenyra is....er....she let her beard live instead of killing him?

I got the impression, based on a brief conversation between the two, that Rhaenyra and Laenor intended to beget kids (and do their duty to their respective families) but either could not or didn't follow up much beyond a perfunctory consummation after the marriage.
As to Laenor's disappearance:
I looked at it from a slightly different angle. She and he got along well enough, so she didn't want him killed, and she cared for him enough that she was happy to set him free ... which is what he wanted! As I see it, she was aware of, and in on, the plot for the fake assassination with Daemon.

Here's where I think Rhaenyra, narratively, is being protrayed as an utter fool. She's got a dragon. Daemon has a Dragon. They both want each other. She could now and again dally with him, using dragons to venture off to assignations nobody else can trace, and then her kids would look like a Targaryen with the white hair and all that. Granted, there's still probably the melanin issue that would eventually be the 800 pound gorilla in the room, but at least the kids would bear substantial marks of the Targaryen line.

The careless and extended affair that she had with the father of her three brats/kids was blatant foolishness. But that does fit how, in the show, she's a spoiled and self centered child of the king. (Kind of like Alicent's oldest son).

And that might not have been intentional from her mind, that's not super clear. Also she loves her kids, but that's to be expected from a mother. Is she cool? Kind of, yeah. But not sympathetic. Right now she has a lot in common with Cersei which is a fine argument for a good villain but not a sympathetic character.

Yeah, she's the proclaimed heir but she has three problems: the partriarchy, the Hightower led scheme/plot, and her own foolishness.

[Ramza00]

Here's where I think Rhaenyra, narratively, is being protrayed as an utter fool. She's got a dragon. Daemon has a Dragon. They both want each other. She could now and again dally with him, using dragons to venture off to assignations nobody else can trace, and then her kids would look like a Targaryen with the white hair and all that. Granted, there's still probably the melanin issue that would eventually be the 800 pound gorilla in the room, but at least the kids would bear substantial marks of the Targaryen line.

The narrative is no matter what the system of feudalism breeds some form of lack and loss in the individual, even if they are in a place of material plenty, something is always missing in ones psyche life.

Of course you can try to solve it like you did, like it is a puzzle piece. But ones psyche inner life is not like that. They live in a world of gift giving and gift taking (especially violent force) yet perhaps the heart wants a world of social equals, maybe not with the entire world as social equal (egalitarian democracy or some other combination of words) but one wants a relationship of egalitarian equals with at least half a dozen people.

=====

The narrative is like this for if one reads Fire and Blood or any other collection of medieval history one sees a common pattern, and if it wasn't "this issue" it would be another. Viserys messed up his kid when he killed his wife and part of Viserys psychically is still stuck in his 2nd year of his reign when Aemma died. Viserys wants / wanted to freeze time and everyone else in his family rebelled against this. Yes Rhaenyra screwed up, yes Alicent screwd up, yes a dozen other people screwed up. But if it happens across generations and it involves more than a dozen people, than perhaps it is not the individual choices making the crisis points but instead the pressures of the system itself.

( a system in crisis that is constantly breaking and a system that rebuilds itself is still a system. People die along the way, but death and life are kind of a human thing )

[KorvinStarmast]

Spoiler: a musing post

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The narrative is no matter what the system of feudalism breeds some form of lack and loss in the individual, even if they are in a place of material plenty, something is always missing in ones psyche life.

Of course you can try to solve it like you did, like it is a puzzle piece. But ones psyche inner life is not like that. They live in a world of gift giving and gift taking (especially violent force) yet perhaps the heart wants a world of social equals, maybe not with the entire world as social equal (egalitarian democracy or some other combination of words) but one wants a relationship of egalitarian equals with at least half a dozen people.

=====

The narrative is like this for if one reads Fire and Blood or any other collection of medieval history one sees a common pattern, and if it wasn't "this issue" it would be another. Viserys messed up his kid when he killed his wife and part of Viserys psychically is still stuck in his 2nd year of his reign when Aemma died. Viserys wants / wanted to freeze time and everyone else in his family rebelled against this. Yes Rhaenyra screwed up, yes Alicent screwd up, yes a dozen other people screwed up. But if it happens across generations and it involves more than a dozen people, than perhaps it is not the individual choices making the crisis points but instead the pressures of the system itself.

( a system in crisis that is constantly breaking and a system that rebuilds itself is still a system. People die along the way, but death and life are kind of a human thing )

I disagree with your final point, that it's the system that is the problem - we can agree that it is a part of the problem but the characters and their choices is what makes a story regardless of what social structure they are inserted into.

The rest of the word salad does not appear to be a coherent response to what I wrote - it came across more like a general musing.

What I should probably have included in my character critique was that we see Daemon and Rhaenyra formally becoming a couple - I think his title is consort or something as spoken during the ep - after his wife (with whom he has had children) self immolates via dragon. We already know there is a powerful attraction between them (it's a bit pervy, all said and done) before she is married off to Laeron for political reasons (As was Rhaenys all those years ago).

Rhaenyra's betrothed (Laeron) knew she'd be seeking her pleasures elsewhere (and he his); that's agreed between them right up front before the seven day celebration is curtailed (thanks to the fist-to-face-dinner-party).
The introduction of Rhaenyra's off-brand dalliance (again, I didn't read the books, nor am I likely to) that produces three children is a sustained case of stubborn foolishness.
Unlike Robert Baratheon, who had his illegitimate spawn put aside or hidden, Rhaenyra flaunts hers. There would still be a succession crisis when the King dies, based on what Rhaenys had told Rhaenyra long before she bore any children. All she, the proclaimed heir, did was add fuel to the flame. (Mind you, the Hand did additional damage to a stable succession in the positioning of his daughter to be the 'surprise' second bride of the king who did not want to remarry at all).

GRR Martin's books (GoT series) and the show(s) from them all deal with the bad choices that a variety of people make. What is good about both the SoIaF books and this show (not sure about the books) is how broad the cast of characters making mistakes can be, and has been, included in mistakes that impact the plot.

And one last, unrelated point: that foot fetish scene was gratuitous perviness. Was it intended to be for comic effect?

[Lemmy]

This was probably the worst episode of the series. The foot fetish scene and Rhaenys murdering a bunch of innocent civilians just to make a grand exit were so stupid and detract so much from the characters it makes it feel like those scenes would better fit the last 2 seasons of GoT.

Well... At least Aegon and Aemond got a little more nuance added to them. They are still not likable people by any means, but it's possible to understand them a little better.

All in all, still better than anything other recent series have done... But definitely a pretty serious downgrade compared to other episodes.

[KorvinStarmast]

This was probably the worst episode of the series. The foot fetish scene and Rhaenys murdering a bunch of innocent civilians just to make a grand exit were so stupid and detract so much from the characters it makes it feel like those scenes would better fit the last 2 seasons of GoT.

Well... At least Aegon and Aemond got a little more nuance added to them. They are still not likable people by any means, but it's possible to understand them a little better.

All in all, still better than anything other recent series have done... But definitely a pretty serious downgrade compared to other episodes.

It took me a second look at that scene to grok that the dragon broke through the floor of the throne room/ceiling of the dragon lair, to make that grand entrance.

In one respect, that's kind of cool - that's how you make an entrance! - but in another respect (here I agree with you) "so a few hundred commoners die, I'll escape on my dragon" only adds another layer of what {censored}'s the Targaryens are as a group in terms of using and abusing their subjects.

[JadedDM]

But the daughter of the King who was being handed the throne despite little indication she deserved it..

What does that even mean, 'deserved it?' You aren't under the impression that merit has anything to do with Westeros succession, I hope? Do you believe Aegon II 'deserves' it more?

Here's where I think Rhaenyra, narratively, is being protrayed as an utter fool. She's got a dragon. Daemon has a Dragon. They both want each other. She could now and again dally with him, using dragons to venture off to assignations nobody else can trace, and then her kids would look like a Targaryen with the white hair and all that. Granted, there's still probably the melanin issue that would eventually be the 800 pound gorilla in the room, but at least the kids would bear substantial marks of the Targaryen line.

I've never had an affair before, but somehow if I did, I don't think the choice of who I'd have the affair with would be made with such cold logic. Affairs tend to be acts of passion. if Rhaenyra had said, "I must make sure I choose my paramour to have the right hair color so nobody suspects anything if I should produce a bunch of illegitimate children," I'd think she was a weirdo. Nobody does that.

Also, you seem to be forgetting that Daemon wasn't around for that point of time. He was in exile across the sea with his wife and daughters. Even with dragons, it would take some doing to meet each other regularly. (And also, them taking off for days or even weeks at a time on their dragons strikes me as far more conspicuous.)

And one last, unrelated point: that foot fetish scene was gratuitous perviness. Was it intended to be for comic effect?

It didn't seem to me to be meant to be funny. And I don't recall it being in the book. I think the point of the scene was to further emphasize Rhaenys' point about her being a tool for the patriarchy. Alicient is the most powerful woman in Westeros, and she still is beholden to the wants of the men around her, despite them being of lower station than herself. She is still nothing more than a 'thing' to possess, control or just lust after.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've never had an affair before

This isn't 'an affair.' She and her husband are both agreed on an open relationship due to their tastes being different and they both know it.

Also, you seem to be forgetting that Daemon wasn't around for that point of time.

I am not forgetting anything, and unlike most of Westeros, both he and Rhaenyra are dragon mobile, but perhaps my mental picture of the time and distance involved doesn't match yours.

He was in exile across the sea with his wife and daughters.

The show does not make clear what that distance is, but maybe a better map would give me a different picture. Heck, in GoT Danerys flies from one continent to the other on dragon back. If Daemon is in Pentos (is that where he is?) he can do likewise. And they don't have to have their 'weekend of torrid passion' very often. Now and again would also feed the "absence makes the heart grow fonder" aspect of their passion, yadda yadda.
EDIT: heck, it just occurred to me that she likes older men. Corlys knows his son's preferences; Rhaenyra could have a now and again with Corlys to produce an heir from the correct blood line. Auntie Rhaenys need never know ...

It didn't seem to me to be meant to be funny. And I don't recall it being in the book.
I think the point of the scene was to further emphasize Rhaenys' point about her being a tool for the patriarchy.
Alicient is the most powerful woman in Westeros, and she still is beholden to the wants of the men around her, despite them being of lower station than herself. She is still nothing more than a 'thing' to possess, control or just lust after.

Did Rhaenys have that conversation with Allicent as well as with Rhaenyra? The one that sticks in my mind was the conversation early in the season with Rhaenyra, but if Rhaenys had the same conversation with Allicent then yes, that's a good point and it does make sense. (to me, anyway)

That foot scene struck me as neurotic on both of their parts: she needed him as her 'gray man' learning and doing things (a less overt version of Varys in the GoT/SoIaF stories) and he needed her due to his yearnings, desires to have influence/connection, and so on).

[JadedDM]

Did Rhaenys have that conversation with Allicent as well as with Rhaenyra? The one that sticks in my mind was the conversation early in the season with Rhaenyra, but if Rhaenys had the same conversation with Allicent then yes, that's a good point and it does make sense. (to me, anyway)

Yes, I was referring to the scene Alicient and Rhanys have in this episode, where the latter says (and I'm paraphrasing), "You don't want to escape your prison, you want to build a window for it."

That's generally been my impression of the main conflict between Alicient and Rhaenyra, at least as far as the show is concerned. Rhaenyra bucks the system and does what she wants. She is heir, even though she's a woman. She can sleep with whoever she wants. Sex, for her, is about pleasure, not duty. Alicient, on the other hand, follows the rules. She does what she is told. Sex is a boring but necessary chore. She has sacrificed so much, so seeing Rhaenyra flaunt those rules drives her up the wall, because it implies all of her sacrifices were unnecessary. If women are capable of leading, of making their own choices, of living their own lives, then Alicient gave up her childhood, her agency and her future for no reason.

Consequently, Alicient does not seek the throne, does not seek power for herself. She is, after all, 'just a woman.' She is, ultimately, a pawn of the patriarchy.

So I feel that having this scene where Alicient, the Queen Mother, one of the most important and powerful women in Westeros, being made to humiliate and debase herself for a man beneath her station really drives home that point.

[KorvinStarmast]

So I feel that having this scene where Alicient, the Queen Mother, one of the most important and powerful women in Westeros, being made to humiliate and debase herself for a man beneath her station really drives home that point.

Hmm, I thought it was more of her putting up with a useful tool (as people put up with Varys in GoT) who is, in a lot of ways, a bit of a tool in a different sense of the word. While I understand your meta take on this, I think it's a little bit of a reach. She ought to be the most powerful woman in Westeros, and one of the most powerful people in Westeros, but she's perhaps unaware of her power, and is for sure uncomfortable with her power despite some others pointing her in that direction (Rhaenys included).
Mind you, Rhaenys is a tough nut to crack as she's got her own kids and grand kids that she'd like to promote by whatever means necessary ... and she's got a dragon.

Alicent doesn't have a dragon. The relationship between Rhaenyra and Alicent is a complex one - friend turns into stepmother? Awkward!

Alicent's (core) problem is that her father has used her as a tool since he first got her to befriend Rhaenyra, and then slid her into the king's empty emotional life, and it took her a while to figure that out. That guy needs a serious comeuppance.

[Lemmy]

She wasn't "made" to do anything, though. She wasn't a "tool'... She wanted something from him and exchanged sexual favors for it.

That scene detracts from both characters... Turning a great villain-esque character into just a perv... And having the queen prostituting herself for his favors. Then we have Princess Rhaenys killing a bunch of people just for a dramatic exit...

These scenes are so bad, character-wise, that they kinda ruin the episode... It's the weakest in the season by far.

[JadedDM]

She wasn't "made" to do anything, though. She wasn't a "tool'... She wanted something from him and exchanged sexual favors for it.

Do you think Otto has to do that kind of thing when he wants something from someone? If not, consider why that might be.

[KorvinStarmast]

She wasn't "made" to do anything, though. She wasn't a "tool'... She wanted something from him and exchanged sexual favors for it.

Are you referring to how her father used her to gain influence with the King (that is what I was talking about in terms of her being used as a tool) or are you talking about the scene with the foot fetish deal? FWIW, I don't think "exchanged sexual favors" is a fair assessment for what Alicent did, since I don't think she got anything sexual out of it while Larys seems to have gotten his kicks. _{(I admit when she said his name I heard it as Varys - let's blame that on my TV's sound system and old ears )}

That scene detracts from both characters... Turning a great villain-esque character into just a perv.

I agree with you! And yes, it degrades her as well for acquiescing to that price to pay for his help/aid/spying/information. There are so many other ways to have written that kind of transaction a sort of quid pro quo.

[Lemmy]

(...) or are you talking about the scene with the foot fetish deal? FWIW, I don't think "exchanged sexual favors" is a fair assessment for what Alicent did, since I don't think she got anything sexual out of it while Larys seems to have gotten his kicks.

Yes, the sexual favor was for him. Perhaps I should've used the word "sell" instead of exchange.

Do you think Otto has to do that kind of thing when he wants something from someone? If not, consider why that might be.

No. she but scould just as well give him an order the same way Otto can. We see plenty of noble ladies and queens giving orders that are promptly followed. Including Alicent herself. Anything Otto could've done to acquire Larys' services, Alicent could do as well.
Hell! Cersei has a whole "Power is Power" scene in GoT that is very iconic.

Alicent and Larys learly have a deal there. It's obviously not the first time it happened and it's obviously something she agreed to. He gives her information and does the dirty work for her... And she act as his porn fodder.

He clearly didn't force her to do it either. She does it because she wants what he has to offer and is willing to do what he asked in exchange for it. It's prostitution, not forced labor.

The scene detracts from both characters. And not in a "oh, look they are not as good as we thought" way, but in a "this makes both characters look weaker as people and less interesting as characters" way. Now instead of being an ambitious guy with grey-at-best morality, Larys is just a guy who does what he does because of a kink... And the queen debases herself in a way that is completely unnecessary, unfit for her station and, worst of all, inconsistent with her characterization so far.

[hamishspence]

Anything Otto could've done to acquire Larys' services, Alicent could do as well.
Hell! Cersei has a whole "Power is Power" scene in GoT that is very iconic.

Book Cersei also "bribed low-ranking minions with her body", so to speak (the Kettleblacks) to get them to do what she wanted. What Alicent did at least had no physical contact, making it a lot safer for her than what Cersei was doing - no risk of pregnancy or disease.


It might be a bit out of character for series Alicent so far - but it's worth remembering that a lot of the incidents are at least loosely based on "Mushroom's version" of events rather than "Eustace's version" or "the Grand Maester's version"

And Mushroom painted Alicent as having done similar kinds of favours for the Old King, Viserys's grandfather, in the hope of gaining power this way.

[KorvinStarmast]

And the queen debases herself in a way that is completely unnecessary, unfit for her station and, worst of all, inconsistent with her characterization so far.

I find 'debase' to be the just right term that I wasn't able to conjure up this morning. It fits.

It might be a bit out of character for series Alicent so far - but it's worth remembering that a lot of the incidents are at least loosely based on "Mushroom's version" of events rather than "Eustace's version" or "the Grand Maester's version"

Is this from the books?

[hamishspence]

Is this from the books?

That particular incident with Larys, no - Larys is a bit more mysterious in the books. But as I said - there's a reference in Fire and Blood that paints Alicent as willing to do stuff with the Old King in order to get ahead, at least according to Mushroom.

One incident in the show that's based heavily on "The Mushroom version" is the whole "Daemon teaches her a great deal about sexuality, but stops short of actually sleeping with her" thing - Eustace claims, by contrast, that the two went all the way.

[Lemmy]

Book Cersei also "bribed low-ranking minions with her body", so to speak (the Kettleblacks) to get them to do what she wanted.

Yes. She did that. And Cersei was doing exactly the same thing... Prostituting herself in exchange for something. And it fits her characterization.

It might be a bit out of character for series Alicent so far - but it's worth remembering that a lot of the incidents are at least loosely based on "Mushroom's version" of events rather than "Eustace's version" or "the Grand Maester's version"

And Mushroom painted Alicent as having done similar kinds of favours for the Old King, Viserys's grandfather, in the hope of gaining power this way.

But we are not reading the book. We are watching the series... You'd have a point if the series was framed as Mushroom (or someone else) telling a story, but that's not the case... The story is being framed as factual events happening in real time.

Inconsistent characterization is still inconsistent even if it matches a different version of the story. The characters in the show have to be consistent with how they're portrayed in the show, not in other versions of the story containing other versions of the characters.

That scene doesn't say "Alicent is oppressed by the patriarchy". Larys has no power over her. It says "Alicent is either lazy, stupid or both".

[hamishspence]

Given how murderous Show Larys is -

Spoiler

Show

having killed his own father and brother just to get Otto back into the position of King's Hand

I think Alicent knows how precarious her safety is in any dealings with him - and tries to strike a balance between "humouring the dangerous, unstable ally" and "avoiding doing things she finds unacceptably debasing".

[Ramza00]

This is not the first time with Alicent and Larys, Eagle eyed fans noticed in previous episodes Alicent has taken off her shoes around Larys.

But look at it from her point of view. She is not selling anything, she per her own words had no one in her corner prior to her father returning and becoming hand. Something she confessed to Larys and he took advantage of with his arranged murder. She got her family back and soon after the shoe thing started happening.

Likewise it is not selling herself, she is trying to protect her children and feels she is desperate. The wonderful Helaena, the brash Aemond (notice his name is an anagram of Dameon), and her first born who is a sexual abuser. And now Alicent also has three grandkids as well. (Non bastards, more than the 3 if we count bastards.)