That Da*n Crab

[pendell]

It's been a long time since I've done any active adventuring, so I have to ask:

-- what makes That Da*n Crab so Da*n bad? I mean, I read the stat sheet at WOTC and it reads like ... a really big sea monster. Why is it so terrifying?

Innocently,

Brian P.

[Green Bean]

It's been a long time since I've done any active adventuring, so I have to ask:

-- what makes That Da*n Crab so Da*n bad? I mean, I read the stat sheet at WOTC and it reads like ... a really big sea monster. Why is it so terrifying?

Innocently,

Brian P.

Take a look at the claw damage (especially on a grapple). Check the monster's CR. Compare said claw damage to the HP of a character at the crab's CR.

[Frosty]

The crab is CR 6 in my opinion.

[Chronos]

Last time it came up, someone ran the numbers and concluded that vs. a level 3 party, That Damned Crab would have a 93% chance of killing one party member on the first round of combat, then an 80% chance of getting another one on the second. At which point it retreats to the deeps to enjoy its meals, so you can't even recover the remains to raise your friends, or go through their pockets for spare change.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't necessarily kill instantly, but if it gets a hit and succeeds on its grapple check (both very likely), it's almost guaranteed to be able to keep you in the grapple for long enough for its constriction to kill you. And there's nothing that a 3rd-level character is likely to be able to do about it in the meanwhile.

[kjones]

It's not that That Damn Crab is so horrifying in and of itself. It's a reasonable encounter...

... for a party of Level 6 or thereabouts. A CR of 3 means that it should be a reasonable challenge for a 3rd level party, whereas all evidence indicates that it would be, in fact, overwhelmingly powerful.

The problem is exacerbated (as shown in Fax Celestis' threads on the subject) when That Damn Crab is advanced or given templates.

[kpenguin]

It's been a long time since I've done any active adventuring, so I have to ask:

-- what makes That Da*n Crab so Da*n bad? I mean, I read the stat sheet at WOTC and it reads like ... a really big sea monster. Why is it so terrifying?

Innocently,

Brian P.

You know, you don't have to put the asterisks there.

Anyway, let's compare the monstrous crab to a similar vermin of the same CR, the giant praying mantis.

Monstrous Crab:

Spoiler

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Monstrous Crab
Large Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 7d8+35 (66 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), swim 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+19
Attack: Claw +10 melee (1d8+9)
Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (1d8+9)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d8+9, improved grab, powerful claws
Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +2
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 14, Con 21, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: --
Feats: --
Environment: Temperate coastal
Organization: Solitary, pair, or swarm (6-10)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8-10 HD (Large), 11-21 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: --

Giant Praying Mantis:

Spoiler

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Giant Praying Mantis
Size/Type: Large Vermin
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 40 ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+11
Attack: Claws +6 melee (1d8+4)
Full Attack: Claws +6 melee (1d8+4) and bite +1 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft (4 squares)./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +0, Will +3
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 8, Con 15, Int Ø, Wis 14, Cha 11
Skills: Hide -1*, Spot +6
Feats: —
Environment: Temperate forests
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Large); 9-12 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

The crab has:

• Over double the mantis' hp
• Double the mantis' land speed
• A higher AC by 5
• Better base attack and grapple bonuses
• Two claw attacks that outstrip the mantis' claws and bite in both attack bonus and damage
• Better Reflex and Fortitude saves and only a slightly weaker Will save
• Significantly higher strength, dexterity, and constitution
• Two special abilities in addition to improved grapple

[kjones]

To that, I would add that its lower will save basically doesn't matter, as it is a mindless vermin and is thus immune to many things that would require a will save. So its "weakness" isn't really a weakness at all.

[Guy_Whozevl]

Last time it came up, someone ran the numbers and concluded that vs. a level 3 party, That Damned Crab would have a 93% chance of killing one party member on the first round of combat, then an 80% chance of getting another one on the second. At which point it retreats to the deeps to enjoy its meals, so you can't even recover the remains to raise your friends, or go through their pockets for spare change.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't necessarily kill instantly, but if it gets a hit and succeeds on its grapple check (both very likely), it's almost guaranteed to be able to keep you in the grapple for long enough for its constriction to kill you. And there's nothing that a 3rd-level character is likely to be able to do about it in the meanwhile.

Not exactly true. A Cleric with the Travel domain can activate a Freedom of Movement effect as the domain ability and get the heck out of there. That has to count as something...

[Frosty]

Perhaps that says more about the cleric than anything else?

We should stat out mock battles between that crab and all other CR3 creatures and see if any other non-flying CR3 can beat it

Can an optimized level 3 group beat it without deaths I wonder...

[Foeofthelance]

Can an optimized level 3 group beat it without deaths I wonder...

Sure. A bunch of rangers with longbows should be able to stay ahead of it long enough to whittle it down, and a party of mages might be able to hit it with enough direct damage. (What's the range on Scorching ray? 16d6 every round for 2-3 rounds should kill it.) I don't know if that counts as optimized or not, esepcially considering how the forum frowns on Evocation, , but it might be doable.

But as with most things the question isn't can we make four characters capable of taking down the crab at level 3, its can we make four characters who can take down the crab as part of a standard dungeon at level 3?

[Shadowdweller]

Not exactly true. A Cleric with the Travel domain can activate a Freedom of Movement effect as the domain ability and get the heck out of there. That has to count as something...

Nope. The Travel domain ability applies to magic effects only.

[Draz74]

To that, I would add that its lower will save basically doesn't matter, as it is a mindless vermin and is thus immune to many things that would require a will save. So its "weakness" isn't really a weakness at all.

Not entirely true ... a Level 3 Wizard can have Glitterdust, and being Blind would hinder the Crab a bit, would it not?

[goken04]

Last time it came up, someone ran the numbers and concluded that vs. a level 3 party, That Damned Crab would have a 93% chance of killing one party member on the first round of combat, then an 80% chance of getting another one on the second. At which point it retreats to the deeps to enjoy its meals, so you can't even recover the remains to raise your friends, or go through their pockets for spare change.

Over Thanksgiving break, I ran a low-level one-shot for my players back home. They just wanted to do some combat, so I told them I wanted to show them how powerful this one monster was and that it would probably eat them alive; they said go for it.

They fought three other CR 3 encounters before TDC. Only once did any of them take any HP damage. ONCE! My players are great optimizers (when it comes to melee, anyways...). Then they fought TDC... It went just like Chronos said: Charge and grab the barbarian. Next round: grabbed the druid. Retreat to water (which took a few rounds as my brother's Psion/Wizard dropped some serious speed-reducing powers on him with jacked saves). That's okay, because no one was able to do enough damage to him before he got in the water, anyways. The end.

Oh, and did I mention that I gave them max-HP, 300 extra starting gold, and they were gestalt. TDC does, indeed, stand a fantastic chance of killing off two level 3 characters in any encounter it has with a level 3 party.

EDIT:

Not entirely true ... a Level 3 Wizard can have Glitterdust, and being Blind would hinder the Crab a bit, would it not?

Not if it's already retreating. It can only move at half speeds, sure, but that's the only RAW movement restriction. Way I ruled it (since there's no rules that dictate how great/little an idea a blinded character has of where it intends to go), since crabs just walk sideways, he had no trouble (besides the reduced movement) heading for the ocean.

[pendell]

So why was it given CR 3 originally in the first place?

Silly question ... but is TDC *supposed* to be played intelligently? I mean, it doesn't have an int score, right? Is it supposed to be played with the kind of intelligent strategy that says 'grab the barbarian first, then the druid' -- I mean, c'mon, it's a *crab*.

But that's nerfing, I suppose.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Badgerish]

it's still deadly with an accurate level of intelligence.

are both claws full?
if yes: run to water, hide and eat
if no: is there prey within reach + 5' step?
if yes: 5' step, attack nearest, improved grab
if no: is there prey within charging distance?
if yes: charge nearest, attack, improved grab
if no: run or double-move towards prey

repeat as needed

even if the nearest person is a defence-focused knight with fullplate and shield, this is hardly a bad tactic

this simple programming does have a weakness though, summoned animals/monsters or zombies make easy distractions while the party runs away (summons do disappear when killed though, freeing up claws again)

i'm happy with this monster as a CR 5 or 6.

[Ryshan Ynrith]

It doesn't matter particularly which characters it targets, the point is that even on instinct, it wants to grab two people and then retreat to the ocean to eat them, and you essentially cannot stop this at third level.

[Emperor Demonking]

Yeah it has the right tactics for its int and is far too powerful.

[mostlyharmful]

Add to this that it's written as an ambush predator, the only way a party of 3rd level has a prayer is if they have advanced warning and room to move out of the way. in which case it just slips back into the water. Not exactly my idea of overcoming a challenge. Otherwise it's rolls all round and bright shiney new character sheets.

[Frosty]

Maybe Some Entangles combined with Grease on the ground. anything to really hamper its movement will help.

Wonder who'd win between it and the Fleshraker. Grapple checks are just too high even for the raker I bet.

[Chronos]

Is it supposed to be played with the kind of intelligent strategy that says 'grab the barbarian first, then the druid'

It's more like "Grab the closest thing first". I imagine that in goken04's game, the closest characters just happened to be the barbarian and the druid. And yes, that's the tactic that's described in its entry, so with a non-int, that's really the only way you can justify it fighting.

[Telonius]

It's more like "Grab the closest thing first". I imagine that in goken04's game, the closest characters just happened to be the barbarian and the druid. And yes, that's the tactic that's described in its entry, so with a non-int, that's really the only way you can justify it fighting.

Makes sense for the Barbarian to be closest. Charging up is kind of their thing.

[Signmaker]

Maybe Some Entangles combined with Grease on the ground. anything to really hamper its movement will help.

Wonder who'd win between it and the Fleshraker. Grapple checks are just too high even for the raker I bet.

I could see this working well if TDC was played outside of its natural environment (Beach, water, etc.), but the concept of greasing sand never did really click with me...

[Lyinginbedmon]

Okay, obviously I've missed something interesting. What is That Damn Crab?

[Captain van der Decken]

You can find it here.

[puppyavenger]

Monsteros crab from the WOTC website, stats are already posred.

[Lyinginbedmon]

Yeah, I see what you mean. The Grapple check plus Constrict damage is insane for a CR 3

[Frosty]

It's mroe than insane. It's Impossible(tm)

[CartesianDaemon]

Question: Improved Grab in the SRD says "-20 to not use whole body for grapple, just use attacking limb, attacker not considered grappled", which I infer is what the crab is doing. Does that -20 apply to the grapple modifier? Is it already taken into account in the number given?

If not, the net grapple modifier is +19-20 = -1, which is more like a 50/50 chance to escape (or better for a melee character).

Is that the case? If so, it's still insane, it just takes four rounds to kill two characters rather than two.

[Yakk]

Laugh! I think you are right!

The combat description implies that it just uses the claw, which means it grapples at a total modifier of -1 instead of +19.

So:
Attack @+10 (tends to hit) for 1d8+9 damage (avg 13.5).
Free Grapple Check @ -1 for 1d8+9 damage (avg 13.5).

So the claws tend to hit, but the grapple tends to fail. It is still nasty, but not godly. :)

Note that if the crab does grapple you, you are in deep ****: 27 damage each round on average. (It does both claw-attack and constrict damage, from my reading of the improved grab ability...)

[Cuddly]

So That Damn Crab isn't that damned; Fax just wasn't playing the game right?