How much does VoP screw over Druids?

[Frosty]

VoP restricts your spell list drastically since you can't cast anything that isn't in your ordinary spell component pouch. Now granted, Druids don't derive all of their power from spellcasting, which is good, but how much are they hurt by taking VoP? Which good spells are they missing out on?

[bingo_bob]

Very, very little. Druids only rarely use components. Usually it's just Foci. And druids are monsters to begin with, anyways. Really, VoP Druid is quite powerful.

[tyckspoon]

Reincarnate, Atonement, Stoneskin, Hallow/Unhallow, Shapechange, Fire Trap. Unlike a VoP Wizard or Cleric, a Druid can still Scry: the Druid's scrying focus is a natural pool of water with no monetary value.

[deadseashoals]

So... shapechange.

A worthwhile trade unless you're starting at an extremely high level. And by worthwhile, I mean "OMG."

[Kurald Galain]

Does VoP really restrict your spell choice all that much? Seems to me there aren't that many spells with expensive material components. Yes, the raise dead line with all their big diamonds becomes tricky. But aside from that?

[littlechicory]

I'll add to what bingo_bob said-- most of the components and foci the druid uses are twigs and stuff with no cash value. I believe the rule of thumb was that VoPs may carry up to 100 gp of stuff, no more, so average set of hide armor, quarterstaff, sling & stones, low-cost animal companion, you've still got something that's gonna beat the stuffing out of everybody else.

Which would be pretty cool, if not for the fact that my group's planning to switch over to Rifts permanently soon. D:

[Ponce]

I don't believe you are allowed armor in VoP. I'd quote directly, but its probably a breach of copyright somehow.

Druids and VoP would work rather well, I think. All those tasty bonuses apply while you are wildshaped; not so with items, usually. I don't know if it expands their maximum capacity for power at all, but it certainly makes it a lot easier to achieve a higher level of power. Again, its probably much better once you get wildshape.

[Tokiko Mima]

I would say that Druid is probably the best Core class to take VoP. They can turn it most to their advantage in abilities, and don't need the utility that magic items provide because they're a full caster already.

[Chronos]

What do non-vow druids spend their money on, anyway? Most items won't work in wild shape, and there's only so much you can spend on those few things which do.

[Guy_Whozevl]

Granted, Druid with VoP is probably the most effective way to use the feat. Regardless of that, the Druid misses his favorite Wilding Clasps, which give insane versatility during wild shape. But to return to the OP's original question, I would say a decent amount until you get Natural Spell. Then, it doesn't matter if you have equipment or not; you will kick ass. The VoP bonuses when you turn into a Dire whatever only sweeten the deal for the Druid. It also seems to fit flavorwise; a Druid who has shunned material possessions to be one with nature.

[tyckspoon]

What do non-vow druids spend their money on, anyway? Most items won't work in wild shape, and there's only so much you can spend on those few things which do.

Wilding clasps to make things work in Wildshape, the Wilding/Wild/whatever it's called enchantment for armor that does the same thing, Ioun stones, and the standard assortment of scrolls, wands, metamagic rods, and pearls of power that help complete any full caster. Just because he can spend all his time wildshaped doesn't mean he has to; he can buy stuff to make use of while human-formed too.

[Frosty]

but would you say a non-VoP Druid is definitely more powerful than a VoP druid?

I'm thinking of playing a Raptoran who scoffs at all the excess of "civilization"

[namo]

but would you say a non-VoP Druid is definitely more powerful than a VoP druid?

Yes, but there is no question that a VoP druid is powerful enough compared to most builds, so go ahead !

[Leon]

Druids have penty of things to spend gold on - Dont forget that wildshape isnt the only aspect of a druid.

[Jack_Simth]

Does VoP really restrict your spell choice all that much? Seems to me there aren't that many spells with expensive material components. Yes, the raise dead line with all their big diamonds becomes tricky. But aside from that?

It's not primarily the expensive material components - it's the Divine Focus.

Yes, even though a Druid's Divine Focus has a price line of "-", that's not what the Vow of Poverty officially measures such things by. Officially, it's measured by a very short list of items - simple weapons, spell components pouch, one mundane sack, clothes, and a single day's worth of food (from memory). A Divine Focus isn't on there, for Druids or Clerics (well, a Cleric can maybe get by if you can find a deity who's Holy Symbol also happens to be a simple weapon, or something similar).

Without a house rule to the contrary (a house rule which is, frankly, quite reasonable to make), this means the Druid misses out on such staples as Greater Magic Fang, Barkskin, Summon Nature's Ally, and most the animal attribute spells.

[Jacob Orlove]

Or you could just make clothes out of Holly and Mistletoe. Maybe a hat?

[horseboy]

Wilding clasps to make things work in Wildshape, the Wilding/Wild/whatever it's called enchantment for armor that does the same thing, Ioun stones, and the standard assortment of scrolls, wands, metamagic rods, and pearls of power that help complete any full caster. Just because he can spend all his time wildshaped doesn't mean he has to; he can buy stuff to make use of while human-formed too.

Druids have a human form?!?!

[Jack_Simth]

Druids have a human form?!?!

Yes, it's useful for those low-level campaigns (1st through 4th) or in those high-level intrigue campaigns (a thousand faces at 13th+). Prior to level 8, a Druid is unfairly forced into a base-race form for at least a few hours per day.

[Frosty]

Right. Assuming that thy Focus is allowed without questions, how many earth-shattering spells will I be missing? I know I can't cast Tsunami anymore. Out of Reincarnate, Atonement, Stoneskin, Hallow/Unhallow, Shapechange, and Fire Trap, I'm not sure I care too much about any of those. Shapechange is nice I guess, but I can already wildshape which is nearly as good. The rest are very situational.

[deadseashoals]

What do non-vow druids spend their money on, anyway? Most items won't work in wild shape, and there's only so much you can spend on those few things which do.

Wilding clasps, which are a 3.0 item that people somehow manage to sneak into their campaigns. Periapt of wisdom. Monk's belt, which should be renamed "druid's belt." Wild armor, which works while wildshaped. And of course, a large +5 quarterstaff and +5 animated heavy wooden shield for their legendary ape form.

[bugsysservant]

A bit off topic, but if you do go VoP druid, make sure you pick up exalted wild shape with one of your bonus feats. Shift to a Blink Dog, and get their supernatural abilities. One of which is, of course, Dim Door at will. Very convenient for when you don't have access to teleport.

[Jack_Simth]

Wilding clasps, which are a 3.0 item that people somehow manage to sneak into their campaigns.

It made the Magic Item Compendium, which was released March 2007, and is officially a 3.5 source. That, and theoretically 3.0 items are valid for 3.5 unless they've been updated.

[Frosty]

On a side note, I also know that it's usually more optimal to keep on replacing your animal companion as you level. If I choosed a Fleshraker and decided to stick with it, when will it start becoming obsolete?

[Ditto]

If you put a magical item on and then wildshape, the item is melded into you and rendered ineffective. What happens if you put a belt on when you're, say, a monkey, what happens to the belt?

[Sequinox]

... What the heck is VoP? Now that someone has mentioned it I wanna know what it is.

And what is this doing on an oots thread? Shouldn't this be under the game rules discussion thingymagiggle?

[ZeroNumerous]

If you put a magical item on and then wildshape, the item is melded into you and rendered ineffective. What happens if you put a belt on when you're, say, a monkey, what happens to the belt?

Wildling Clasp. It makes stuff work in Wild Shape.

Frosty: Fleshraker will start to suck in late levels due to high Fortitude Saves outpacing it's poison DC.

If you want a silly animal companion.. Get a Dire Tortoise from Sandstorm. Guess what: It always acts during the surprise round. Even if there is no Surprise Round. If you're playing a Druid 10/Master of Many Forms 10, then this becomes your ultimate traveling form.

[MrNexx]

... What the heck is VoP? Now that someone has mentioned it I wanna know what it is.

And what is this doing on an oots thread? Shouldn't this be under the game rules discussion thingymagiggle?

Vow of Poverty, from Book of Exalted Deeds.

And it is in the Game Rules Discussion.

[Illiterate Scribe]

... What the heck is VoP? Now that someone has mentioned it I wanna know what it is.

Vow of poverty - an exalted feat that grants you some nifty abilities on the proviso that you sell all your equipment, and never use a magic item.

Also, people, remember that all these spells with expensive components can be paid for with XP - the 'Other Ramifications of Poverty' gives this at a 1XP:5gp rate. You can burn through them quite quickly if you're not careful, but in my opinion, it's almost a better deal - no diamonds on you? Hah, 1000 XP beam!

[leperkhaun]

it actually doesnt hurt their spell casting much. for VoP you have to give up a big chunk of your share of loot, but not ALL of it. Whats left over could be used by the party for the matriel components for those high level spells.

So the party can buy the components for the spell Rencarnate, keep the components, then give them to the druid to rencarnate a downed party member.

However where it gets tricky is in a spell like shapechange, where the 1500 gp circlet is kept withe the druid (or spells like tensers transformations, a wizard spell example, that require the consumpton of a magic potion or somesuch).

In my group if the party buys the expensive components, the druid can use them, as long as he does not carry them on him and the components are consumed during the casting.

Anyhow, most DM's and players tend to overlook the HEAVY roleplaying requirements of the feat. VoP is actually rather balanced.

[littlechicory]

However where it gets tricky is in a spell like shapechange, where the 1500 gp circlet is kept withe the druid (or spells like tensers transformations, a wizard spell example, that require the consumpton of a magic potion or somesuch).

Actually, drinking a magic potion is one of the few magic items VoP allows, provided the potion was given to the VoP by a friend. I imagine a DM could also house-rule in that items can be "borrowed" by the VoP for the purpose of spellcasting, then returned to whoever carries them normally.