Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

[Rater202]

So, new trailer.

We're also a month away from the release at this point.

We have what looks to be movie-quality animation, and it seems like they've added a scene of Uryu talking to his father which gives me hope that this adaption will expand on some elements from the manga that could use a bit more polish and detail.

[Ramza00]

Here are earlier threads if someone wants to get updated (do not Necro them! Threads are not allowed to be Quincys that is a Soul Reaver thing)

2021 https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...86-More-Bleach!

2020 https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...er-Bleach-ness

The spirits are forever with you *hahahaha* , see everyone in October!

[danzibr]

So, new trailer.

We're also a month away from the release at this point.

We have what looks to be movie-quality animation, and it seems like they've added a scene of Uryu talking to his father which gives me hope that this adaption will expand on some elements from the manga that could use a bit more polish and detail.

Hmm yes expand…

The ending was hella rushed. Could use some expansion.

Regardless, looking forward to it!

[Rynjin]

I'm genuinely pumped for this. Can't wait to hatewatch Bleach with my brother again, genuinely some of the most fun we've ever had together is roasting the anime.

[Anteros]

I thought this was supposed to be set in the future? This looks like it's in the past though. Am I thinking of different movies/shows?

[Psyren]

I'm excited for this. Hopefully we hear Number One again

I thought this was supposed to be set in the future? This looks like it's in the past though. Am I thinking of different movies/shows?

It definitely spans plot material from the Bleach setting's past, but chronologically it takes place after the Aizen and Fullbring stuff.

[Rynjin]

I thought this was supposed to be set in the future? This looks like it's in the past though. Am I thinking of different movies/shows?

Must be. Thousand Year Blood War is simply the final arc of Bleach; the anime never covered it because it got canceled before the manga finished.

Bleach takes place in the present day, technically, but a lot of it happens in the afterlife which is styled after feudal Japan. Only about half the series actually takes place in the mortal world (arcs 1, 4, and 5 of 6 basically).

I'm excited for this. Hopefully we hear Number One again

They made a new remix of Number One, but it fails to hit the abject majesty of the original, same as all the other remixes. Still solid though.

That's one thing you can never fault Bleach for. The story may be bad, the art may get lazy by the end, and the characterization is some of the worst in the business, but the anime salvages some of that with a soundtrack that just. don't. miss.

[Rodin]

I thought this was supposed to be set in the future? This looks like it's in the past though. Am I thinking of different movies/shows?

As far as I'm aware this arc picks up right where the anime left off. There may be a little bit of a time skip but not a major one.

I'm kinda psyched. I only ever read the first chapter of this arc when the anime completed and quickly decided that fight-focused manga are not for me.

I don't expect much out of the story, but the fights in Bleach were mostly superb. Only Aizen was truly boring, and even he got an interesting final battle.

In other words, I'm here for it as long as they nail the execution. They'll have to bring their A game though, as the standards have gone up significantly since Bleach aired.

[Rynjin]

I don't expect much out of the story, but the fights in Bleach were mostly superb. Only Aizen was truly boring, and even he got an interesting final battle.

Out of curiosity, what is it about Bleach's fights that appeal to you where other fight-focused manga don't?

In other words, I'm here for it as long as they nail the execution. They'll have to bring their A game though, as the standards have gone up significantly since Bleach aired.

Eh, Jujutsu Kaisen became the biggest anime/manga in the world by just being BleachxNaruto: This Time It's Yu Yu Hakusho, the standards haven't raised as much as you think.

[Ramza00]

Out of curiosity, what is it about Bleach's fights that appeal to you where other fight-focused manga don't?

Because they are metaphysical that deal with the concepts of death, human perception, our ability to fathom and imagine, etc.

It is a specific style. Likewise it deals with just and unjust hierarchy and how things are able to persist for better or worse.

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Of course how things are drawn, style wise, aesthetics of the fight, aural music, etc also matter.

[Rynjin]

Because they are metaphysical that deal with the concepts of death, human perception, our ability to fathom and imagine, etc.

It is a specific style. Likewise it deals with just and unjust hierarchy and how things are able to persist for better or worse.

I hear the final arc delves into this stuff, yeah, but I was more talking about the rest of the series. I stopped reading in disgust when Ichigo got his zanpakuto back near the end of the Fullbring arc so I'm interested to see the "fight and dethrone god" portion of the series.

[LaZodiac]

Gonna keep at least half an eye on this to see some very specific things, listed below in spoilers for those who don't know the manga- and I suggest you who don't know the manga but read this spoiler, keep an eye out for these moments.

Spoiler: Thousand Year Blood War arc spoilers

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Kenpachi and Unohana's endless dance.
Mask du Masquline vs Renji; the ultimate Heel Wins wrestling match.
Everything involving Giselle if only because I want to see how close to the original publication they go and how people will react to Problematic Trans Rep Giselle "She Loves Corpses No Seriously She LOVES Corpses" Gewelle.
Kenpachi is literally stronger than a person can imagine is possible.
Awful science man makes his baby eat a giant right hand.
Hat and Clogs being a genuinely really awful person to the ninja cat girl, again like the above Giselle stuff mostly because I wanna see how people REACT to it.

[Rodin]

Out of curiosity, what is it about Bleach's fights that appeal to you where other fight-focused manga don't?

I didn't say I liked Bleach's fight-focused manga. I said I don't like fight-focused manga period. Fight-focused anime on the other hand...

As to why Bleach? I found the fights well choreographed with awesome music and some utterly fantastic dialogue. The grand story to Bleach kinda sucked, but the individual fights stood out. Lommari Le Roux's rant on the arrogance of Soul Reapers while being totally off the mark about why Byakuya was fighting him. Mayuri Kurotschi and Szayzelapporo having a "mad scientist off" ending in an excellent speech about the downsides of perfection. Tousen and Komamura's fight which was so filled with emotion.

The framing which held these fights together did not work as the story fell apart after the Soul Society arc. The fights themselves are probably my most re-watched in anime history, and I still go back and binge favorite fights.

Eh, Jujutsu Kaisen became the biggest anime/manga in the world by just being BleachxNaruto: This Time It's Yu Yu Hakusho, the standards haven't raised as much as you think.

...you know what? Fair. Jujutsu Kaisen is in exactly the same boat as Bleach. Great fights with fantastic music tied to a sub-par story that isn't really necessary to watch the show.

[Rynjin]

I didn't say I liked Bleach's fight-focused manga. I said I don't like fight-focused manga period. Fight-focused anime on the other hand...

Ahhh, I see what you mean. I shortcircuited a bit and didn't make the connection between "don't like manga" and "do like anime". Yeah, Bleach's animation has always been top notch, especially for a weekly ongoing series. Where Naruto could be sporadic starting with Shippuden (the original series is impeccable) and One Piece started to go slideshow mode after the timeskip, Bleach maintained a consistent quality.

Honestly the manga and the anime are kinda tied up in my head when it comes to fights. The manga, when it started, had some absolutely stellar paneling that made the action flow so well it almost seemed animated. Sadly the series lost this over time, leaving the anime as sort of the definitive experience, which is kind of weird for one of these long running shonen.

The framing which held these fights together did not work as the story fell apart after the Soul Society arc. The fights themselves are probably my most re-watched in anime history, and I still go back and binge favorite fights.

For me, I need either really good framing to make up for lack of any particular combat depth (see: Megalo Box; terrible combat series, excellent show overall) or the series to have extremely good choreography and strategy (which shows like JoJo and some parts of Naruto do well).

So when Bleach's narrative started to falter, I began to lose interest in John Bleach getting a new "bigga numbahs" powerup every arc, and the combat started to fall flat for the most part. Some side characters do get some excellent battles though.

My favorite fight in the series is probably Starrk vs Kyouraku, even if it doesn't QUITE live up to its potential. Starrrk was the only Espada I really connected with and hoped would live.

I wish Ichigo had been allowed to learn Kido techniques. Would have spiced up the series HUGELY but Kubo's worldbuilding made it kind of impossible.

[Rodin]

Ahhh, I see what you mean. I shortcircuited a bit and didn't make the connection between "don't like manga" and "do like anime". Yeah, Bleach's animation has always been top notch, especially for a weekly ongoing series. Where Naruto could be sporadic starting with Shippuden (the original series is impeccable) and One Piece started to go slideshow mode after the timeskip, Bleach maintained a consistent quality.

Honestly the manga and the anime are kinda tied up in my head when it comes to fights. The manga, when it started, had some absolutely stellar paneling that made the action flow so well it almost seemed animated. Sadly the series lost this over time, leaving the anime as sort of the definitive experience, which is kind of weird for one of these long running shonen.

It's certainly possible that if I read Bleach at its prime I'd have a better opinion of fight manga. I've only read a chapter here and there of different well-known properties.

I think it's deeper than that though. If I'm reading, my brain is engaged. I'm there for story, and fights are generally light on that. Since I'm used to anime I'm also missing out on the voice acting and music - the main fight I go back to in Jujutsu Kaisen simply doesn't work without the score and Asami Seto devouring the scenery. I think it isn't a coincidence that another favorite fight of mine from Bleach is Kenpachi and Nnoitra hamming it up.

Edit:

I should also note that Ichigo does not feature heavily in my list of "favorite fights". Honestly, he's the most boring character in his own series. His only good fight was him v. Byakuya.

[Rynjin]

I'll also give some credit to Ichigo vs Grimmjow 2: Electric Boogaloo. That was one of Bleachigo's better fights too, and his final battle with Aizen is solid too.

Argh. Grimmjow's character design is so wasted on such an insignificant character though. He was my favorite Bleach character when I was a teen just because he looked SO COOL. I played a dumb auto-battler gacha game with Bleach and Naruto characters in it and I usually played as him.

[Ramza00]

I hear the final arc delves into this stuff, yeah, but I was more talking about the rest of the series. I stopped reading in disgust when Ichigo got his zanpakuto back near the end of the Fullbring arc so I'm interested to see the "fight and dethrone god" portion of the series.

What everything that Rodin said applies to the final arch which is several hundred chapters. In some ways it is even more pure than what comes before. Everything about soul society is "arrogance" and conceit as Rodin would say, and that is kind of what Soul Reavers are, they deal with death and to develop their powers they must find a way to reject the world or reject society and their Zanpakutou is a crystal manifestation of "this rejection." Put simply Soul Reavers are :censored: , but we read for such beings are interesting.

Likewise the Hell Arc Quincy are just as obnoxious but in different ways. No Spoilers though

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Soul Society is a dystopia, and it is an interesting setting for the "limiting principles" of normal human society does not apply to Soul Society. While everyone that is not a soul reaper may live in squalor, they also do not need to eat and so on, starvation, death, and disease do not apply to you unless you have spiritual energy.

Now if you have spiritual energy you are cursed but also gifted for you can do all these magical things, like become a Soul Reaper but you also need to eat, and Soul Society is a parallel society of haves and have nots and they figured out a way that if you are a lucky person / unlucky person with spiritual energy you gotta work in a way the Soul Society forces you too. Pure dystopia fuel.

Likewise the Soul Society is built on metaphysics, that makes it necessity / but perhaps not, that we as the reader is barely aware of. Thus there is a mystery aspect of is this social relations is truly needed or not. In sum the metaphysics turn the story into a mystery box.

=====

And this returns to Ichigo and his personality. He is really a chill guy and not arrogant or haunty, he takes things in with equanimity and non judgement. Almost like a buddhist zen. Is this his personality type, is this a trauma response, or is it something else.

Yet Ichigo also has a firecracker personality, the choleric temperament, where he can not stand injustice and bullying. A person who has high reactions and high impressions when they sensory and intellectually take in the world. (put another way high neurotic and more extroverted in "response" than introverted in response.) Now this can be written boringly Ichigo's personality but if you can put the right type of society flaws, or haunty arrogant people in front of him that are bullying then you have a good story, but if you do not have such a conflict than Ichigo's "arrow-ness" with direct flight is boring.

Back to Soul Society, the story would be fundamentally different if we have more point of view time via Uryudu who thinks differently than Ichigo, likewise Chad, Orihime, Rukia, Urahara the Shop-owner, etc. It only works as a series for Ichigo does not know how things work, he is an outsider, and he is a non-judgemental person until someone starts hurting and then his hot headed care lord personality comes out.

Now I haven't listed the flaws of bleach, that is like two dozen things, and I still like the series but I am not trying to spread negative vibes with nit picks and so on

[Psyren]

I'm loving MHA both from a story and fight perspective. I'm switching to the manga to get caught up since the anime took a break.

The one manga I really wish had gotten animated is my namesake

[danzibr]

Ahhhhh yeaaaahhhh all the new bankai we get to see.

To generally comment on what others have said… Bleach did do quite a good job in the animation and music department. Fell sorta flat in others, but hey still one of my favorites.

[Rater202]

I'm hoping that when they get to the reveal about the true nature of Zangetsu that they add in some flashbacks to the events that foreshadowed it.

A lot of people called it an asspull or an unearned power up or whatever but that was foreshadowed from the moment those characters first showed up.

And I think that was becuase the foreshadowing was so long ago prior to the reveal that a lot of people just up and forgot.

[Rynjin]

I'm hoping that when they get to the reveal about the true nature of Zangetsu that they add in some flashbacks to the events that foreshadowed it.

A lot of people called it an asspull or an unearned power up or whatever but that was foreshadowed from the moment those characters first showed up.

And I think that was becuase the foreshadowing was so long ago prior to the reveal that a lot of people just up and forgot.

The issue with pointing to "foreshadowing" in Bleach is that it's reeeeally hard to tell when something has actually been foreshadowed or not. Kubo's greatest narrative strength is taking small, insignificant details and making future plot points around them, when he had no intention of doing that before.

The single best example of this is Aizen. Remember that Aizen was supposed to ACTUALLY be dead when he is "killed" in the Soul Society arc. He was written and killed with the intention that everything about him could be taken at face value. He actually was a kindhearted man who wanted to solve a mystery and right an injustice, and he was killed for it.

Except at the last minute Kubo looked at what he had written down and decided that revealing Aizen was still alive, and was the main villain, not only MADE SENSE but was a superior twist to his original intention (having Kisuke Urahara be the primary overarching villain of the series). The only thing he needed to do was whip the right overpowered effect for Aizen's Shikai out of his ass and any minor inconsistencies like him being dead are smoothed over.

It is a genuine master stroke of narrative and one of the best villain reveals of all time. And was completely done on the fly in a week or two before the end of the arc.

I genuinely, sincerely doubt the Zangetsu reveal was actually intended and deliberately set up in the same arc he didn't even know who his main villain would be. It's just that he did a really good job recontextualizing a ton of scenes meant for something else.

[danzibr]

The issue with pointing to "foreshadowing" in Bleach is that it's reeeeally hard to tell when something has actually been foreshadowed or not. Kubo's greatest narrative strength is taking small, insignificant details and making future plot points around them, when he had no intention of doing that before.

The single best example of this is Aizen. Remember that Aizen was supposed to ACTUALLY be dead when he is "killed" in the Soul Society arc. He was written and killed with the intention that everything about him could be taken at face value. He actually was a kindhearted man who wanted to solve a mystery and right an injustice, and he was killed for it.

Except at the last minute Kubo looked at what he had written down and decided that revealing Aizen was still alive, and was the main villain, not only MADE SENSE but was a superior twist to his original intention (having Kisuke Urahara be the primary overarching villain of the series). The only thing he needed to do was whip the right overpowered effect for Aizen's Shikai out of his ass and any minor inconsistencies like him being dead are smoothed over.

It is a genuine master stroke of narrative and one of the best villain reveals of all time. And was completely done on the fly in a week or two before the end of the arc.

I genuinely, sincerely doubt the Zangetsu reveal was actually intended and deliberately set up in the same arc he didn't even know who his main villain would be. It's just that he did a really good job recontextualizing a ton of scenes meant for something else.

Holy smokes that’s gnarly. Where’s this information from?

I remember seeing at some point a collection of panels which foreshadowed the whole Zangetsu thing, and it was quite a few. Man I should reread the entire thing, in Japanese. This also applies to what we learn in the most recent chapter, just how much was it foreshadowed? Or does it seem like an afterthought, pulled out of whatever orifice for the manga to go on?

[Vahnavoi]

Hat & Clogs totally is the main villain and Aizen did nothing wrong.

But, like LaZodiac, I'm mostly looking out for my favorite characters {Scrubbed}. I can already see the Twitter outrage with my mind's eye. "Not the queer we wanted!"

[Rater202]

Re: Foreshadowing, Kubo is on record that he had a more or less finalized outline by the time he finished the Soul Society Arc and deviations from that were either editorial demands or just his own memory issues.

Spoiler

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At the very least, the way The Old Man taught Ichigo to airwalk uses a very similar phrasing to Uryu later explaining the Quincy movement technique, and Ichigo's hollow mask manifesting to protect him early on in the arc and White Ichigo appearing as a figure meant to

Edit: And as for Giselle... Yeah, strap in folks. The Manga makes a point of not confirming whether or not she's trans so not only are there going to be problematic representation arguments but arguments about whether or not she's "really" trans.

...Kubo confirmed in a Q&A that she is, by the way. But that's an authorial statement and people seem oddly intent on ignoring those.

[LaZodiac]

Hat & Clogs totally is the main villain and Aizen did nothing wrong.

But, like LaZodiac, I'm mostly looking out for my favorite characters {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}. I can already see the Twitter outrage with my mind's eye. "Not the queer we wanted!"

Please understand that I'm excited for how people react to that from the position of positivity and liking being queer. It's going to be very funny to see people argue that Giselle isn't a girl (she blatently is) and ALSO very funny seeing people try to wrestle with the fact that she's so very very very bad a person, and that Yumachika (resident actual gay) is a huge bigot to her, but that she is still trans rep. This sorta thing amuses me.

But I am always 100% for queer representation. If that was mistaken.

Re: Foreshadowing, Kubo is on record that he had a more or less finalized outline by the time he finished the Soul Society Arc and deviations from that were either editorial demands or just his own memory issues.

Spoiler

Show

At the very least, the way The Old Man taught Ichigo to airwalk uses a very similar phrasing to Uryu later explaining the Quincy movement technique, and Ichigo's hollow mask manifesting to protect him early on in the arc and White Ichigo appearing as a figure meant to

Edit: And as for Giselle... Yeah, strap in folks. The Manga makes a point of not confirming whether or not she's trans so not only are there going to be problematic representation arguments but arguments about whether or not she's "really" trans.

...Kubo confirmed in a Q&A that she is, by the way. But that's an authorial statement and people seem oddly intent on ignoring those.

I share your opinion that Kubo probably did plan a lot more of this than we think, but also I do agree that I hope the anime makes it all flow together better.

The people who are going to be hating Giselle are gonna find themselves on the side of the guy that's all but confirmed gay and the people who rise to defend this incredible mess of a character are going to find themselves face to face with one of the sickest characters in the series. It's hilarious.

I still think it's cool and good Giselle exists though. Bleach has a pretty decent amount of queer coded characters so it's not like Giselle is the only one, so it doesn't strike me as bad, and in a proper future there'll be trans villains as well as heroes. We've got the little bee assassin girl, Yumechika, probably a few others I'm blanking on, so Giselle isn't standing alone as representation.

Of course it's just as likely no one will notice because Bleach did initially get cancelled to make room for the Chibi Rock Lee series. I'm not sure the mass public audience will catch onto the Thousand Year Blood War arc.

[Rater202]

I still think it's cool and good Giselle exists though. Bleach has a pretty decent amount of queer coded characters so it's not like Giselle is the only one, so it doesn't strike me as bad, and in a proper future there'll be trans villains as well as heroes. We've got the little bee assassin girl, Yumechika, probably a few others I'm blanking on, so Giselle isn't standing alone as representation.

The sequel novel has Hikone Ubuginu, who is gender ambigious. Hikone is referred to with male pronouns in official media but claims to be neither male nor female and is later established to lack sex, in a biological sense, entirely.

(Hikone is an artificial being. His creator decided that such things were unneusary.)

It's honestly not clear if Hikone is nonbinary and male pronouns are used as a default or if Hikone identifies as male and was referring specifically in terms of biology when he said otherwise. Considering that Hikone is a literal child in both mind and body and a rather sheltered one at that it's entirely possible that he doesn't have the context to know the difference.

[Rynjin]

Holy smokes that’s gnarly. Where’s this information from?

I genuinely don't remember, I just recall it was info that came out around the time the series ended (maybe in an interview somewhere?) and has just kinda seeped into the public consciousness at this point.

The sequel novel has Hikone Ubuginu, who is gender ambigious. Hikone is referred to with male pronouns in official media but claims to be neither male nor female and is later established to lack sex, in a biological sense, entirely.

(Hikone is an artificial being. His creator decided that such things were unneusary.)

It's honestly not clear if Hikone is nonbinary and male pronouns are used as a default or if Hikone identifies as male and was referring specifically in terms of biology when he said otherwise. Considering that Hikone is a literal child in both mind and body and a rather sheltered one at that it's entirely possible that he doesn't have the context to know the difference.

There's a pretty decent amount of this in shonen, actually. That's basically Crona's (from Soul Eater) deal as well.

Japan has a much different relationship with gender and identity than the West overall.

[LaZodiac]

I genuinely don't remember, I just recall it was info that came out around the time the series ended (maybe in an interview somewhere?) and has just kinda seeped into the public consciousness at this point.



There's a pretty decent amount of this in shonen, actually. That's basically Crona's (from Soul Eater) deal as well.

Japan has a much different relationship with gender and identity than the West overall.

True enough, though modern editions of Soul Eater have them (properly) using nonbinary pronouns for Crona, so that's cool.

[Rater202]

My understanding of Crona is that referring to them with male pronouns was exclusively an issue of translations and that they were only ever referred to with gender-neutral terms in the Japanese."

Which apparently resulted in some clunky dialog in places.

[LaZodiac]

My understanding of Crona is that referring to them with male pronouns was exclusively an issue of translations and that they were only ever referred to with gender-neutral terms in the Japanese."

Which apparently resulted in some clunky dialog in places.

This is also true!

On another topic: the advanced animation techniques of today are going to do

Spoiler

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the dance between Unohana and Kenpachi

incredible, right?