If it's not magic, don't bother

[Cuddly]

Wtf is up with this?

I'm running a 3.5 game, and I'm constantly appalled out how screwed non-magic users are. For a fighter to be at all good at levels above 5 or 6, he has to be glowing with magic items. The best a non-magic weapon can get is a +1 to attacks. Alchemy sucks. Epic Alchemy isn't worth it, either. DC 40 for 2d6 fire damage? Yeah, right.

It's ridiculous! And leafing through the Epic Handbook... Pelor on a stick! Cool, a 100 on by balance check lets me do what a wizard does at level 5. And feats... most are totally worthless, especially the epic ones. And epic casting... why bother playing a noncaster past level 20?

Hell, why bother playing a noncaster past level 5?

And the whole world is presented as this backwards, low magic, everyone groveling in huts scenario. Yet somehow the fighter's supposed to have 50 grand of gold (that's a lot of gold!) by level 10, to spend on all the right stuff. If he doesn't he's going to die, hard. Where are all these magic weapons coming from? Is the countryside chalk full of precisely the right magic items for the heros to find? Or maybe ye olde magic vendor is traveling around, selling high level items, despite the fact that the majority of ships presented in the DMG are incapable of sailing on the open sea.

D&D is such a terrible system. I'm really irritated with it. The d20 mechanics are fine as a model for high fantasy and stuff, but the balance and fluff suck! I wouldn't mind a cohesive, monty haul high fantasy. But somehow, with 99% of the world a lvl 1 human dirt farmer, the Drow or Orc or Devils haven't taken over; there are magic items in tombs all over the place; and a worldwide market for these magic items, yet seemingly no one save 4 characters that could afford them.

Alternatively, I'd be ok with a low magic world- teleporting is dangerous and hard and a level 9 spell; clerics fear requesting their deity's intervention; save or dies sometimes backfire and hit the caster; and mundane weapons come in better flavors than masterwork.

I dunno. Maybe I should look for a different system. That no one else plays. And I have to spend money on.

[GoldDragon]

No one ever said D&D was realistic.

[Crow]

Lot of things to address there...good luck. Most of what you cite is only repairable via homebrewing. Here's hoping 4E gets it right, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

One of the houserules I always liked was having 4 grades of mundane weaponry. Inferior, Normal, Superior, and Masterwork.

[Cuddly]

No one ever said D&D was realistic.

This isn't about realism.

[de-trick]

calm down, could just be your DM

for playing fighters past 5+ so you have hitpoints, cause a wizard with only 20 hp would die. It would be a 1 hit kill if the enemys won initiative

[Solo]

ToB is widely considered to have "fixed" the martial classes by giving them a power boost, though perhaps it would have been better to tone down the casters...

[Cuddly]

Lot of things to address there...good luck. Most of what you cite is only repairable via homebrewing. Here's hoping 4E gets it right, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

One of the houserules I always liked was having 4 grades of mundane weaponry. Inferior, Normal, Superior, and Masterwork.

Yeah, I've been kicking around the idea of homebrewing a low magic world from the ground up, but I just don't have the time.

As I see, several things ought to happen:
Reduce spell power, across the board. Heavily restrict spells, let wizards choose only two schools of magic they can pull from. Get rid of all the ridiculous self buffs clerics have. Maybe make both classes half casters.

Druids get casting OR shifting OR animal companions. Not all 3.

Cut hybrid classes like paladin or ranger. Replace their class abilities with feat chains and class variants for barbarian, druid, fighter, cleric.

Bump up the power of melee characters. Replace feats like weapon focus with stuff that's actually usable.

Make multiclassing have more synergy. As it is, a wizard 20 is vastly more powerful than a wizard10/fighter10. Instead, make it so a wizard is squishy enough, and his spells not so great, that picking up a few levels of fighter would be really attractive. Alternatively, make it so a few levels of wizard or sorc would have some attractive spells that you'd see fighters dip wizard.

[Crow]

I've actually ran wizards and sorcerers with a single school (but all splatbooks available). It worked pretty damn well.

[Cuddly]

I'm not a fan of ToB- it does the wrong thing. It escalates the power creep that's been going on for years. As it is, man players just cherry pick the best from a multitude of books, passing up cool stuff for good stuff. It's just... fluff and mechanics are tied together too tightly. Like prestige classes. Just get rid of those.

Oh man, what I find really, really annoying, is when you're reading through a book, and see a place where the designers were like "clearly this ability is too powerful for a fighter; why, he could swing his sword all day with that beneift! We better limit it!" Then they surreptiously slip in some crap like a guy who uses the power of rainbows for the real ultimate power.

calm down, could just be your DM

for playing fighters past 5+ so you have hitpoints, cause a wizard with only 20 hp would die. It would be a 1 hit kill if the enemys won initiative

Or you could be playing a cleric, or druid, which make fighters virtually obsolete. Hitpoints don't do anything vs. invisible opponents, flying opponents, a DC23 will save or become a gibbering idiot, or anything else that you know, is on that high shelf and no one has a ladder (except for the wizard who just conjured one into existence).

[Cuddly]

I've actually ran wizards and sorcerers with a single school (but all splatbooks available). It worked pretty damn well.

Hmm, I was thinking pigeonholing wiz and sorc into evokers; don't give them nearly as many save or dies, or ridiculous spells like rope trick and knock.

[Stam]

I agree with the above...if ToB is the answer to the problem here, I think the designers were looking at the wrong question.

Spellcasting needs some serious nerfs. Pehaps melee-stuff needs a boost as well, but ToB? ToB stuff is simply not a realistic balancing factor if you're not going to follow a supernatural theme for the abilities. Some of them work well with a mundane theme, yes...but those ones aren't going to allow you to reach that flying wizard.

[Cuddly]

I agree with the above...if ToB is the answer to the problem here, I think the designers were looking at the wrong question.

Spellcasting needs some serious nerfs. Pehaps melee-stuff needs a boost as well, but ToB? ToB stuff is simply not a realistic balancing factor if you're not going to follow a supernatural theme for the abilities. Some of them work well with a mundane theme, yes...but those ones aren't going to allow you to reach that flying wizard.

I'd like a more Conan game than a Harry Potter meets WoW. Barbarians should really get good will saves. Why would Mr. He-Man be more afraid of the charging Wyrm than the frail elf who loathes physical combat? Whatever.

Shooting flying wizards with a bow would be great... if it weren't for the fact that archery is pretty bad to spec, and the wizard didn't have a bunch of ways of avoiding arrows.

[MrNexx]

Tome of Battle fixes the caster/tank thing by making tanks into casters.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

One of the more interesting points- I saw it brought up some time ago- was a rumor/story that the original testers for the present edition focused on dealing damage with Wizards and Sorcerers.

Under this model, they actually work fine, and Sorcerers make considerably more sense.

However; fundamentally, the best way to solve this problem is limiting access to magic items, and adjusting the CR and capabilities of opponents to match. Take a leaf from Conan; magic is inhuman, but can be defeated by human thew. That's the theme to take.

I generally disallow Druids, Clerics, Wizards, and Sorcerers altogether, actually.

[Cuddly]

While changing the CR is definitely an option, I don't like the idea of limiting adventure possibilities due to a lack of magic items. That just seems... counter productive. Why not come up with a system where we can still have fun fighting dragons, rather than getting stuck with kobolds and goblins for 12 levels?

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

While changing the CR is definitely an option, I don't like the idea of limiting adventure possibilities due to a lack of magic items. That just seems... counter productive. Why not come up with a system where we can still have fun fighting dragons, rather than getting stuck with kobolds and goblins for 12 levels?

Invent an environment with:
A. Non-flying dragons
B. A built-in negation of the flight advantage.

A cave, a very traditional dragon encounter, fits B quite nicely.
Remove the dragon's spellcasting; no one has it, why should he?
Twiddle it a bit more.
You should be able to build a dragon characters without full casting can combat.

[Mojo_Rat]

To be honest? I get the impression that alot of the balance problems come from the playstyle of players. This isnt to say I disagree with the idea that casters ar strong but the types of opponents you present your players with and how those opponents fight matters a great deal.

Alot of the time when i hear people talk about how weak non castes are they present a situation where the non caster is made totally useless in every encounter like time and effort has been put in to make this deliberately the case as if every encounter challenges every weakness non casting Pc's have.

Yet apparently Less time and effort seems to be put into the oposite. If Flying encounters are such a big deal for non casting pc's then simply /present less flying opponents/ as an example.

Instead of having every BBEG as a flying greater invisble wizard withe veyr possible anyi melee spell memorised make it an on the ground oponent with an anti magic field.

These are just examples off the top of my head. Also if you adhere to the game design of multiple encounters rather than single large encounters it affects the balance alot.

[horseboy]

One of the more interesting points- I saw it brought up some time ago- was a rumor/story that the original testers for the present edition focused on dealing damage with Wizards and Sorcerers.

Under this model, they actually work fine, and Sorcerers make considerably more sense.

Was this your card?

To the OP, yeah, that's why I play Rolemaster.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Was this your card?

To the OP, yeah, that's why I play Rolemaster.

Correct, though I don't want to open the can of worms said thread represents.

[Cuddly]

To be honest? I get the impression that alot of the balance problems come from the playstyle of players. This isnt to say I disagree with the idea that casters ar strong but the types of opponents you present your players with and how those opponents fight matters a great deal.

Alot of the time when i hear people talk about how weak non castes are they present a situation where the non caster is made totally useless in every encounter like time and effort has been put in to make this deliberately the case as if every encounter challenges every weakness non casting Pc's have.

Yet apparently Less time and effort seems to be put into the oposite. If Flying encounters are such a big deal for non casting pc's then simply /present less flying opponents/ as an example.

Instead of having every BBEG as a flying greater invisble wizard withe veyr possible anyi melee spell memorised make it an on the ground oponent with an anti magic field.

These are just examples off the top of my head. Also if you adhere to the game design of multiple encounters rather than single large encounters it affects the balance alot.

There are a great many monsters that naturally fly. Most demons and devils can fly and spam really vicious stuff that a fighter is totally dependent on his caster buddies for.

Sure, if the DM wanted to limit the monsters to medium sized bipeds that weren't Outsiders, then yeah, a fighter without magical help/gear could do well.

[Leon]

Wtf is up with this?

I'm running a 3.5 game, and I'm constantly appalled out how screwed non-magic users are. For a fighter to be at all good at levels above 5 or 6, he has to be glowing with magic items. The best a non-magic weapon can get is a +1 to attacks. Alchemy sucks. Epic Alchemy isn't worth it, either. DC 40 for 2d6 fire damage? Yeah, right.

Dunno ive not had a problem with fighters over those levels not decked to the nines in gear, core alchemy is not given much thought - look beyond the core

It's ridiculous! And leafing through the Epic Handbook... Pelor on a stick! Cool, a 100 on by balance check lets me do what a wizard does at level 5. And feats... most are totally worthless, especially the epic ones. And epic casting... why bother playing a noncaster past level 20?

Why indeed, if its bad then dont play it.

Hell, why bother playing a noncaster past level 5?

Why bother playing a Caster, a non caster, a Hybrid?

And the whole world is presented as this backwards, low magic, everyone groveling in huts scenario. Yet somehow the fighter's supposed to have 50 grand of gold (that's a lot of gold!) by level 10, to spend on all the right stuff. If he doesn't he's going to die, hard. Where are all these magic weapons coming from? Is the countryside chalk full of precisely the right magic items for the heros to find? Or maybe ye olde magic vendor is traveling around, selling high level items, despite the fact that the majority of ships presented in the DMG are incapable of sailing on the open sea.

D&D is such a terrible system. I'm really irritated with it. The d20 mechanics are fine as a model for high fantasy and stuff, but the balance and fluff suck! I wouldn't mind a cohesive, monty haul high fantasy. But somehow, with 99% of the world a lvl 1 human dirt farmer, the Drow or Orc or Devils haven't taken over; there are magic items in tombs all over the place; and a worldwide market for these magic items, yet seemingly no one save 4 characters that could afford them.

The World is what the DM makes it - if he chooses to use that model then so be it but it is but one facet of what is possible with the infomation that is provided

Alternatively, I'd be ok with a low magic world- teleporting is dangerous and hard and a level 9 spell; clerics fear requesting their deity's intervention; save or dies sometimes backfire and hit the caster; and mundane weapons come in better flavors than masterwork.

Aside from the Low magic (which its not) Try Iron Kingdoms on for size

I dunno. Maybe I should look for a different system. That no one else plays. And I have to spend money on.

If you hate this one so much then yes, try another Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is a one that i'd recomend.

[Pronounceable]

OP has hit the nail on head for so many times it broke.

The "standard default generic DnD setting" is ridiculously offending to common sense and logic. "But it can be fixed." is not a valid defense. It should come "fixed" out of the package, since it costs money. People who like DnD as is, and don't care about the flaws play the game, but those of us who DO care about them are better off not playing DnD AT ALL.

HBing a system more suiting one's taste is only a little bit harder than making DnD work for you, and that's free of charge. Plus, there are others systems out there.

Main problem is one of marketing. DnD is the most well known (just like Windows), so most people play it. So when you say: "No, I don't want DnD." you don't find people to play with.

If WotC policies until now are any indication (ELH, ToB), the problems will not be solved by 4E. So I'd encourage people dissatisfied with DnD to use other systems or make their own, not try to fix DnD.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Wtf is up with this?

I'm running a 3.5 game, and I'm constantly appalled out how screwed non-magic users are. For a fighter to be at all good at levels above 5 or 6, he has to be glowing with magic items. The best a non-magic weapon can get is a +1 to attacks. Alchemy sucks. Epic Alchemy isn't worth it, either. DC 40 for 2d6 fire damage? Yeah, right.

It's ridiculous! And leafing through the Epic Handbook... Pelor on a stick! Cool, a 100 on by balance check lets me do what a wizard does at level 5. And feats... most are totally worthless, especially the epic ones. And epic casting... why bother playing a noncaster past level 20?

Hell, why bother playing a noncaster past level 5?

And the whole world is presented as this backwards, low magic, everyone groveling in huts scenario. Yet somehow the fighter's supposed to have 50 grand of gold (that's a lot of gold!) by level 10, to spend on all the right stuff. If he doesn't he's going to die, hard. Where are all these magic weapons coming from? Is the countryside chalk full of precisely the right magic items for the heros to find? Or maybe ye olde magic vendor is traveling around, selling high level items, despite the fact that the majority of ships presented in the DMG are incapable of sailing on the open sea.

D&D is such a terrible system. I'm really irritated with it. The d20 mechanics are fine as a model for high fantasy and stuff, but the balance and fluff suck! I wouldn't mind a cohesive, monty haul high fantasy. But somehow, with 99% of the world a lvl 1 human dirt farmer, the Drow or Orc or Devils haven't taken over; there are magic items in tombs all over the place; and a worldwide market for these magic items, yet seemingly no one save 4 characters that could afford them.

Alternatively, I'd be ok with a low magic world- teleporting is dangerous and hard and a level 9 spell; clerics fear requesting their deity's intervention; save or dies sometimes backfire and hit the caster; and mundane weapons come in better flavors than masterwork.

I dunno. Maybe I should look for a different system. That no one else plays. And I have to spend money on.

Congratulations! You too have discovered the might of magic and suckitude of everything else in D&D, as well as its general lack of balance!

[Feralgeist]

If you like lower magic, or fighters being badass, play iron heroes

[Nowhere Girl]

ToB is widely considered to have "fixed" the martial classes by giving them a power boost, though and perhaps it would have been better to also tone down the casters...

Fixed.

[Charles Phipps]

It depends really on where you're adventuring. D&D's "generic world" is Greyhawk, at least until 4E, and that means that it's a world where you have the Circle of Eight along with Iuz the Omnipotent with Vecna amongst god knows how many other ancient Wizard/Demigods lying around.

D&D presumes, essentially, that magic is something that is found in abundance like Tolkien's Middle Earth. The irony is that, while Tolkien was low key about his spells, the place was littered with the assumption that your average Elvish Soldier was wielding a +1 blade and +1 armor. Likewise, Dwarf Craft is expected to be SOOOooooo ridiculously good that it's able to work legendary things.

Plus, the Gods work like Clash of the Titans by sending down their champions to get Helmets of Invisibility, Sandals of Flying, and Swords +5.

And frankly, the irony of D&D is that the generic worlds tend to actually be more advanced than the actual Renaissance. Most of the towns that you encounter in D&D seem to be composed of freemen with Serfdom relatively rare plus VAST hordes of Castles along with fortified ruins.

You rarely see the Thatched Hut in my games.

But yes, in my games, you never "commission" magic items really. Instead, the majority of them are gifts from the gods or things created by Generic Super Racial Craftsmanship.

[Nowhere Girl]

I'm not a fan of ToB- it does the wrong thing. It escalates the power creep that's been going on for years. As it is, man players just cherry pick the best from a multitude of books, passing up cool stuff for good stuff. It's just... fluff and mechanics are tied together too tightly. Like prestige classes. Just get rid of those.

I agree about the cherry-picking (especially with the tons of feats, which are oddly often total crap sometimes, and at other times so ridiculously powerful when used in certain ways that they become must-haves in various "builds") and even the prestige classes, but I disagree about the ToB classes. I think, rather, that they're the one thing with meleers that WOTC has done right.

Look -- ToB finally makes fantasy warriors look like fantasy warriors. Okay, yes, real-life warriors couldn't leap 20 feet into the air, slash you nine times in the blink of an eye, and cut through solid concrete as though it were butter, but this is fantasy. Maybe it's just that I'm an anime fan and can appreciate over-the-top swordplay, but if I'm going to believe for one minute that any warrior can remotely stand up to the likes of a dragon, he/she had better be able to do the impossible. And look good doing it!

ToB maneuvers are flashy and exciting, the kinds of things that inspire me to go into great detail about my combat action. They're fun. They keep combat interesting and more tactical, because each round is very different from the last, rather than being more of "I swing my sword. Again." Whereas Leap-Attacking, Shock-Troopering, Pounce-Charging Barbarian Chargy McCharger and his spiked chain-using friend Trippy O'Trip are both boring, petty and one-dimensional, ToB fighters are exciting, cinematic and, at times, surprising.

[Cuddly]

...it's just that I'm an anime fan....

Well that explains why you like quasimagical displays of swordsmanship named floating lotus blossom and iron chef julep. Me... not so much. I would be completely fine with feats that scaled with a fighter's level. So improved grapple gives you +4 grapple now. In another 4 levels, it will give you another +4 grapple. And so on. That way, you can tear a gargantuan beasts arm of, Beowulf style.

The real problem is magic- Freedom of Movement means never worrying about getting held down, ever. It totally negates anything control-wise a fighter could do. Things that provide bonuses tend to be fine. Things that let you fly, become undetectable, avoid confrontation, are all vastly stacked in the caster's favor. Rather than come up with depleted uranium spin kick or kidney explosion lunge, just keep the magic a caster does within the sphere of what a fighter can do.

So sure, you're up there and flying and stuff. Oh, no wait, you're getting shot full of holes. Or the barbarian threw a tree at you. And none of that windwall crap- it shouldn't flat out deny attacks. A penalty, sure (that could be negated if the ftr decided to take the feat "shoot this bow in a hurricane"), but not a "ranged characters are screwed."


Not to disparage your watermelon carp song stuff, I feel that the flavor is a little off. I'd rather have a mechanic that was "here are the bare essentials- now apply your own fluff." So a monk's grapple could be a judo arm bar or a WWE bear hug, depending on what sort of monk you wanted. For instance, stunning fist could be described as a vulcan neck pinch, or Indiana Jones punch a Nazi in the face without shattering his handbones on the Kraut's teeth.

[Swordguy]

I agree about the cherry-picking (especially with the tons of feats, which are oddly often total crap sometimes, and at other times so ridiculously powerful when used in certain ways that they become must-haves in various "builds") and even the prestige classes, but I disagree about the ToB classes. I think, rather, that they're the one thing with meleers that WOTC has done right.

Look -- ToB finally makes fantasy warriors look like fantasy warriors. Okay, yes, real-life warriors couldn't leap 20 feet into the air, slash you nine times in the blink of an eye, and cut through solid concrete as though it were butter, but this is fantasy. Maybe it's just that I'm an anime fan and can appreciate over-the-top swordplay, but if I'm going to believe for one minute that any warrior can remotely stand up to the likes of a dragon, he/she had better be able to do the impossible. And look good doing it!

ToB maneuvers are flashy and exciting, the kinds of things that inspire me to go into great detail about my combat action. They're fun. They keep combat interesting and more tactical, because each round is very different from the last, rather than being more of "I swing my sword. Again." Whereas Leap-Attacking, Shock-Troopering, Pounce-Charging Barbarian Chargy McCharger and his spiked chain-using friend Trippy O'Trip are both boring, petty and one-dimensional, ToB fighters are exciting, cinematic and, at times, surprising.

For what definition of "Fantasy" though? That seems to be the crux of the argument. I'd postulate that a lot of people who want to play a "Fantasy Fighter" want to play Boromir, Thorin, Beowulf, Sigurd or Sigmund, Roland, Brynhildr or other such melee'ers considered to be "fantasy". None of these guys does really, really superhuman feats with any real degree of regularity. They have a few superhuman things under their belts which give them the status of epic heroes, but even Beowulf mentions that the "swimming in full armor for 5 days" wasn't a cakewalk, and wasn't something he'd do every day.

You don't see these guys leaping 20 feet in the air and cutting through solid rock as though it were butter a bunch of times an encounter. If they do something like this, it's a big climatic one-time thing.

In fact, I can't think of a major Western fantasy epic offhand where characters routinely DO do the stuff we see in ToB. I can name a half-hundred references in Eastern-themed media (of which anime is a part, to be true).

Somebody mentioned earlier about heroes facing down a dragon. Aside from Saint George, can anyone name a major Western epic fantasy or mythological protagonist who does face down a dragon in melee and live to tell about it in anything more than a death monologue? Beowulf dies. Neither Bilbo, Sigurd , nor Bard face one in melee. The Dragon of Wawel Hill died from a water overdose after being poisoned. Y Ddraig Goch gets buried alive after being induced into a drunken stupor. Python was killed only by a god (Apollo). Frotho I kils a dragon in the Gesta Danorum through the expedient of sneaking up on it and stabbing it through the back of the skull. Saint Martha tamed the tarasque (originally a dragon) by means of hymns and prayers and it is then killed.

This leads me to think that walking up the dragon and telling it to leave before it gets hurt (and to leave all the gold as well) may not be what people are supposed to be able to do...

[Yami]

Hell, why bother playing a noncaster past level 5?

Because someone has to clean up, unless you don't mind wasting your spell slots on hunting down everything. And sometimes, every now and then, you even run across a golem!

Think about it. The fighters and skillmonkies save you precious spell slots. Without them you'd be resting far more often. And then there are the few occasions where the DM cries "Epic Battle!" up ends a bag of M&Ms on the battlemap for mooks. At times like that a properly cared for Barbarian is a must to mop up those pesky survivors your all powerful magic misses. Or usually misses, (There are some builds out there, considered subpar but outthere none-the-less, who excell in such situations. Most don't consider them though.)

As has been noted, every system has it's faults. I'd suggest giving Warhammer a try for a few campaigns until you learn to hate it, perhaps switching to a Mechwarrior later for gameworld change and that need to find that elusive perfect system. You can then proceed to bounce around trying new and wonderous games, all with thier own perks and flaws, until in the end, some years down the road, your friends run up to you all starry-eyed with a shiny new copy of 4E D&D in thier hands.