One D&D UA #2: "Expert Classes" Survey Open 10/20 - 11/23

[Wasp]

What have they done to my Lore Bard?! No Additional Magical Secrets?!? Aaaaaa!!!

[Ignimortis]

Monk is a Warrior. Good.

Bard is a full caster yet again. Bad.

Experts, Mages and Priests are defined by special abilities they get. Warriors are defined by durability (HP) and damage (DPR) yet again. Despite the game having everyone contribute to combat at least somewhat equally for three editions now, durability being more a build thing than class thing, and damage capability being wholly dependent on build again. Can they stop?

Ranger gets Fighting Style, so that's not a Warrior feature (Barbarians and Monks didn't get that before anyway). Maneuvers are not mentioned once, either.

Use Magic Device is changed - it could be a straight buff if someone didn't decide that the old function had to go (despite it not being massively powerful in any way). Instead you have to be INT-secondary with a proficiency in Arcana to make use of its' third feature.

Feats are mostly a hot mess. Epic boons are a blazing trash fire.

[Xervous]

Rogue has to take the attack action to get sneak attack, RIP.

Archery style is laughably unchanged, sharpshooter lost the power attack but gained CQC disadv immunity and now packs a half ASI. GW style is still a turd. The main thing I’m seeing on feats is less damage, and hello 10ft blindSIGHT on skulker. Oh what’s that, skulker asks for 13 DEX?

Mageslayer lackluster at doing what you’d expect. It’s mostly just a dollop of mental LR

Grappler looks spicy for monks. No save grapple AND you get advantage on future attacks?

[Dork_Forge]

Still reading, but good lord they have absolutely butchered the Bard...

[Snowbluff]

So much like with feats, I don't really like Epic Boons being tied to levels in a specific class.

Not sure how I feel about weapon feats being 4th level feats either. A lot of people will be unhappy with the feat budget still. If their goal is to reduce complaints about feat placement, they've soundly dodged success.

Due to how subclass is written, old subclasses should still be compatible even if they don't line up with the progression on the table.

Still reading, but good lord they have absolutely butchered the Bard...

Indeed. Why are these features even moved up? This accomplishes nothing. The only substantial change is Song of Rest, which could be solved by... not making 3 generic lists of spells or at least letting classes have their own lists in addition to those.

[Psyren]

Still reading, but good lord they have absolutely butchered the Bard...

Have they? Bard looks great from where I'm sitting. Now you only have to use Bardic Inspiration when someone fails a check, and once you get FoI then if they roll a one on the inspiration die they still get to keep it. They also gained a bunch of useful spells they didn't have before like Levitate, Fly, Haste, and Contact Other Plane.

Sure you can't inspire somebody 10 minutes ahead of time anymore, but how often will they be that far away from you that you can't do it in the moment? And BI doesn't require you to make a bunch of noise either, you can silently twerk in the background while the rogue is picking a lock for instance.

[Dork_Forge]

Have they? Bard looks great from where I'm sitting. Now you only have to use Bardic Inspiration when someone fails a check, and once you get FoI then if they roll a one on the inspiration die they still get to keep it. They also gained a bunch of useful spells they didn't have before like Levitate, Fly, Haste, and Contact Other Plane.

Sure you can't inspire somebody 10 minutes ahead of time anymore, but how often will they be that far away from you that you can't do it in the moment? And BI doesn't require you to make a bunch of noise either, you can silently twerk in the background while the rogue is picking a lock for instance.

Bardic Inspiration is now = to prof bonus, hideous nerf.

Font of inspiration was pushed to 7th level, compounding the above problem...

Jack of All Trades has been pushed to 5th level, and nerfed in the process.

And the change to Inspiration means that you have another thing that is now 'what about checks that don't have blanket failure?'

The also stripped out some of their martial-ness, which doesn't really make sense when they're also crippling their ability to do Bard stuff.

[Snowbluff]

Have they? Bard looks great from where I'm sitting. Now you only have to use Bardic Inspiration when someone fails a check, and once you get FoI then if they roll a one on the inspiration die they still get to keep it. They also gained a bunch of useful spells they didn't have before like Levitate, Fly, Haste, and Contact Other Plane.

Sure you can't inspire somebody 10 minutes ahead of time anymore, but how often will they be that far away from you that you can't do it in the moment? And BI doesn't require you to make a bunch of noise either, you can silently twerk in the background while the rogue is picking a lock for instance.

They lost most of their "divine spells" and multiple features are several levels than they were later.

Font of Inspiration was at 5. Jack of All Trades was at 2. Magical Secrets was at 10. There's no substantial reason why any of these needed to be moved.

FoI Mk II new benefit gets worse as you level, due to bard die size increases, so it's like... whatever.

[Psyren]

They lost most of their "divine spells" and multiple features are several levels than they were later.

They get back a bunch of them via Songs of Restoration.

Font of Inspiration was at 5. Jack of All Trades was at 2. Magical Secrets was at 10. There's no substantial reason why any of these needed to be moved.

FoI is much less necessary now that you only need to spend dice on failures. They got a bunch of useful new spells (like the ones I listed) so Magical Secrets is less necessary too. And with how easy proficiencies are to get in 1DD, JoAT is nearly a ribbon now.

The also stripped out some of their martial-ness, which doesn't really make sense when they're also crippling their ability to do Bard stuff.

"Crippling," really?

[Snowbluff]

They get back a bunch of them via Songs of Restoration.

I saw. My statement is still true. .-.

Actually is Song of Rest just otherwise deleted then? It only gives more spells. There was a whole feature here that's just gone. It wasn't my favorite or anything, but it shouldn't be pasted over.

FoI is much less necessary now that you only need to spend dice on failures. They got a bunch of useful new spells (like the ones I listed) so Magical Secrets is less necessary too. And with how easy proficiencies are to get in 1DD, JoAT is nearly a ribbon now.

So it might not be immediately obvious, but they are meant to serve the same function as a rogue in their archetypal party. But they don't get thieve's tools as a proficiency innately. Filling in with JoAT would have at least let them do this.

[Dork_Forge]

"Crippling," really?

How about you try addressing the issues rather than replying snidely?

The Bard now has no input into how many inspirations they have and can do it significantly less for the majority of their career.

A Bard not being able to do the defining thing that makes them a Bard anywhere as near as much, especially when their subclasses also rely on that resource, is crippling.

[Psyren]

They've released a series of videos contextualizing the changes:

Bard Dev Interview

Ranger Dev Interview

Rogue Dev Interview

Feats Dev Interview

[PhoenixPhyre]

They've released a series of videos contextualizing the changes:

Bard Dev Interview

Ranger Dev Interview

Rogue Dev Interview

Just going to say, I find putting this info (the context and developer thinking) in videos is (although a modern thing) to be utterly user hostile. Now it's "wade through 10s of minutes of video, no ability to search, reference, or otherwise refer back to unless you save specific timestamps". What's wrong with, you know, written documentation for a tabletop game?

[Dork_Forge]

I explicitly did; they don't need to do it as much, because it's going to be wasted a lot less. You haven't replied to that yet.

They made it easier to give people inspiration by making it a reaction.

They gave a new default option with the healing.

It still fuels subclasses and is meant to be backwards compatible.


'wasting it less' isn't good enough for extreme restriction, especially when they made it much easier to spend it.

A 5th level Bard using Bardic Inspiration three times a day doesn't feel like you're a Bard a 5th level Bard at all.

And a 19th level X taking a dip into it with a 13 Cha and getting a full 6 Inspirations, is utterly bizarre.

[Snowbluff]

Just going to say, I find putting this info (the context and developer thinking) in videos is (although a modern thing) to be utterly user hostile. Now it's "wade through 10s of minutes of video, no ability to search, reference, or otherwise refer back to unless you save specific timestamps". What's wrong with, you know, written documentation for a tabletop game?

If it makes you feel better, they didn't say a lot.
Half of this is just him spelling out the features.

It does feel like a waste of time for something that could a sidebar though.

Why do they bother changing/nerfing articles? I feel like a lot of this could have been left alone to better effect. Like does PAM need to preclude spears? It's almost like they're making a lot of intentionally bad changes so they could look better when they're reverted or something.

[Xervous]

Just going to say, I find putting this info (the context and developer thinking) in videos is (although a modern thing) to be utterly user hostile. Now it's "wade through 10s of minutes of video, no ability to search, reference, or otherwise refer back to unless you save specific timestamps". What's wrong with, you know, written documentation for a tabletop game?

I may be cynical enough to point to it being YouTube getting them engagement metrics, like how you need a Google (or Apple) account for D&DB.

But yes, no relevant visuals? No video.

[Dienekes]

Just going to say, I find putting this info (the context and developer thinking) in videos is (although a modern thing) to be utterly user hostile. Now it's "wade through 10s of minutes of video, no ability to search, reference, or otherwise refer back to unless you save specific timestamps". What's wrong with, you know, written documentation for a tabletop game?

I will say it does allow me to put it on in the background while I work, which is a nice benefit.

But I do agree there are some downsides. I can’t say how many times I’ve tried to reference a part of a video, see that it’s somewhere between 10 minutes to an hour and just give up with the reference of “just trust me they say it somewhere in all this nonsense.”

[Psyren]

Moved this quote out of the video post to keep it clean for linkage in the OP:

How about you try addressing the issues rather than replying snidely?

The Bard now has no input into how many inspirations they have and can do it significantly less for the majority of their career.

A Bard not being able to do the defining thing that makes them a Bard anywhere as near as much, especially when their subclasses also rely on that resource, is crippling.

I explicitly did; they don't need to do it as much, because it's going to be wasted a lot less. You haven't replied to that yet.

Just going to say, I find putting this info (the context and developer thinking) in videos is (although a modern thing) to be utterly user hostile. Now it's "wade through 10s of minutes of video, no ability to search, reference, or otherwise refer back to unless you save specific timestamps". What's wrong with, you know, written documentation for a tabletop game?

I don't disagree which is why I've been helping out with timestamps and such. I'll do that again here when I have time.

They made it easier to give people inspiration by making it a reaction.

They gave a new default option with the healing.

It still fuels subclasses and is meant to be backwards compatible.


'wasting it less' isn't good enough for extreme restriction, especially when they made it much easier to spend it.

A 5th level Bard using Bardic Inspiration three times a day doesn't feel like you're a Bard a 5th level Bard at all.

And a 19th level X taking a dip into it with a 13 Cha and getting a full 6 Inspirations, is utterly bizarre.

A new option it didn't have before doesn't really matter, because if you still want to use it for inspirations and subclass features - your only options previously - you haven't lost the ability to do that.

PB/SR might take a bit longer to get to, but once you do it's quite a lot. And you're correct that Bard is more multiclass-friendly now which I like.

I'm not out to discount your feelings, put it in the survey. I do still believe "crippling" is hyperbolic/hysteric though.

[Jervis]

What have they done to my Lore Bard?! No Additional Magical Secrets?!? Aaaaaa!!!

Yeah but magical secrets from the base class was buffed into the stratosphere. I’m not sure how I feel about bards. Inspiration was nerfed a little. Their general casting is probably a lateral move even if I don’t think they get fairy fire any more. The fact they prepare spells now is a insane buff and late game the magical secrets rules will make them borked beyond belief. Also did they seriously make spell preparation this simple? I have mixed opinions, I need to see how they handle sorcerers but i’m not against changing spells prepared to be equal to spells per day.

Thank god for the sharpshooter nerf. Didn’t expect PAM and CBE to make it out of this untouched and the hit to damage with GWM is something I have mixed opinions on. I need to see how they do fighters but so far it seems like damage for melee fighters over all is dropping.

[Unoriginal]

Grappler looks spicy for monks. No save grapple AND you get advantage on future attacks?

And you get to deal both damage and grapple with one of your unarmed attacks, instead of one or the other.

That's seriously good.

[Abracadangit]

For those who haven't watched the videos explaining their class design decisions, here are some snippets from the Bard video to give you an idea of what they're like. These are real excerpts, verbatim. I am 100% not making these up.

Crawford: Here's the thing about Bards -- are we changing them? Yes. Are they receiving updates, in the form of modified class features? Also yes. But are these changes improvements? I'm glad to say -- the answer is also yes.

Todd: Wow.

Crawford: Let's take a look at Bardic Inspiration, a beloved class feature. It's still got all the features players crave -- it's helping friends boost their rolls, with the use of dice -- but now it's bringing so much more to the table.

Todd: Wow.

Crawford: Before, sometimes you'd use Bardic Inspiration, and it wouldn't be enough. Your teammate would roll their d20, then roll the Bardic Inspiration die, and they'd still fail, because the combined total would be less than the necessary DC, in which case that would mean their roll wouldn't succeed. After some serious playtesting, we decided to make some changes, and here's what we came up with, get ready for this -- you now use Bardic Inspiration as a reaction, when your teammate fails a roll.

Todd: Wow.

Crawford: This means a lot has changed. For starters, instead of it using your action, it now uses a reaction. That's not just on your turn, for those keeping track at home -- reactions can be used on ANYONE'S turn. This is some next-level stuff.

Todd: Wow.

Crawford: And by using it as a reaction when your teammate fails a roll, you're given this greater sense of getting more for your resource. Which resource am I talking about?

Todd: Wow.

Crawford: That's right, Todd -- Bardic Inspiration.

Todd: Wow.

Sarcasm aside, it was like watching molasses. Clearly they have to hit some desired runtime for these videos, and it felt like every sentence was given more words for the sake of more words. Oof. Maybe there are some valuable nuggets in the other videos, but I think I'm good.

I'm sort of on the same page as Dienekes -- some of these changes are cool (Rangers' non-concentration Hunter's Mark is rad), but this feels like things being shuffled around while my big gripes (not enough exploration/social across all classes, martials getting access to cooler moves in general) are probably too rock-the-boaty for 5.5. I'll hold final judgement until everything's said and done, but for now it's wild to see how things are moving in a slightly more Pathfindery direction, i.e. how "Influence" checks are now spelled out in a formalized way in the glossary. Interesting times!

[Dienekes]

I don't disagree which is why I've been helping out with timestamps and such. I'll do that again here when I have time.

The work of a champion, Psyren.

[Psyren]

Yeah but magical secrets from the base class was buffed into the stratosphere. I’m not sure how I feel about bards. Inspiration was nerfed a little. Their general casting is probably a lateral move even if I don’t think they get fairy fire any more.

They lost Faerie Fire (and some other things like Shatter) but gained Haste, Fly, Rope Trick, Mirror Image, Telepathic Bond, and a bunch of other goodies. I'd personally call it a buff overall but will need to go through the spell lists in more detail.

The fact they prepare spells now is a insane buff and late game the magical secrets rules will make them borked beyond belief. Also did they seriously make spell preparation this simple? I have mixed opinions, I need to see how they handle sorcerers but i’m not against changing spells prepared to be equal to spells per day.

I too wonder whether Sorcerer will be prepared, or the only spontaneous caster, or if they'll do something else to make them stand out.

[DarknessEternal]

I don't like that the dual wielder feat no longer allows 2 non-light weapons.

And Polearm Master is still disgustingly too strong for allowing bonus action attacks.

[paladinn]

Ok, I had a chance to briefly peruse the new UA. Forgive me if a lot of this has been discussed already. Here's what stuck out to me:

1. It definitely seems that all spells will be prepared going forward. Both bards and rangers used to have "spells known"; now they are prepared. Not a bad thing methinks.

2. The number of spells prepared now equals the number of available slots at each level. In 5e, your number of spells prepared were figured separately based on your spellcasting attribute+level or such. Now, evidently, if you have 5 L1 slots, you can prepare 5 L1 spells. Am I reading that right? It does simplify some things. But it also makes your attribute less important. A smarter wizard should be able to prepared more spells, IMO

3. Bards are said to be limited to Arcane spells of certain schools. But many of their "Restoration" spells aren't on that list. Is this chalked up to Magical Secrets or ?

4. Rangers still have D10 HD and a fighting style. This is good, but doesn't quite fit the "Expert" mold. I wonder what's going to be distinct/common to the Warrior group. Rangers also have less fighting style options, which I don't agree with.

5. Favored Enemy is way better in terms of effects. At-will Hunter's Mark with no concentration? Awesome! I do think this has lost a little of the Favored Enemy "flavor" though. Used to be rangers got big bonuses fighting all humanoids. This still needs some work.

6. Rangers get cantrips! This is sure to please those who like ranger-with-spells. I'm not one of them, but oh well. And I wonder why they don't get evocation spells.. Hmmm..

Those are my ponderings thus far.. I'm sure more are to come.. lol

[Hurrashane]

They lost Faerie Fire (and some other things like Shatter) but gained Haste, Fly, Rope Trick, Mirror Image, Telepathic Bond, and a bunch of other goodies. I'd personally call it a buff overall but will need to go through the spell lists in more detail.

Shatter is transmutation now, so bards still have it. Thunderwave also is now transmutation... A few spells have had their school changed

[wrn]

Some feats have received pretty interesting things (war caster force pas certain saves per LR, ritual caster normal speed ritual per LR, skulker blindsight). I am worried that the power attack feats have lost the power attack part. It seems they might be making it fighter-only or something...

[Hurrashane]

Some feats have received pretty interesting things (war caster force pas certain saves per LR, ritual caster normal speed ritual per LR, skulker blindsight). I am worried that the power attack feats have lost the power attack part. It seems they might be making it fighter-only or something...

That could be the warrior only thing. Maybe all warrior classes get a more generic power attack mechanic?

That could be interesting.

[Segev]

Having read the pdf of the UA, I find myself...largely pleasantly surprised by how much is well-done. There's decent amounts of clean-up, and the obvious-seeming flaws were cleansed by the glossary of what rules have changed.

I don't like Bards being prepared casters, but I also am unsure if it's not simply that every caster will be, now. I am curious what this means for sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards, if so. If they remain known-spells and spellbook-bound classes, then suddenly Bards are better spellcasters than any of them, which is a problem.

That said, it's kind-of interesting that they're making class spell lists out of the Arcane/Divine/Primal + School matrix. This implies no class-specific spells, but the Ranger (and its Hunter subclass) hints that (sub)class features can take iconic spells and make them something special in the right hands, while leaving the availability to other classes for those who want a dabbling of the flavor. Perhaps Paladins will get find steed automatically, and will get to do things with it other classes cannot.

Rogue had a lot of its interesting stuff moved forward just enough that I think mid-game Rogue is actually potentially, maybe worth pursuing all the way, rather than being a slog of levels 5-8 that you constantly have to debate multiclassing out of for more fun and cool things elsewhere that would let you do your concept at least as well. Not 100% sold, but it's an improvement. Sneak Attack has been nerfed to the extent that it no longer works off-turn, but dual wielding is now a property of Light weapons, and doesn't cost your bonus action (just giving you that no-mod-to-damage extra attack with the off-hand weapon as part of the attack action), so it's still there for the rogue to get two bites at the sneak attack apple with, right from level one. And now without having to sacrifice Cunning Action to do it.

Ranger is a spellcaster from level 1, which is nice. Prepared, which I think actually makes sense for them (Rangers being a spells-known caster was always a weird choice, to me, in 5e).

Favored Terrain is just plain gone; Favored Enemy is the old UA Favored Foe: Rangers automatically know hunter's mark and, for them, it doesn't require Concentration. I still would have preferred multiple-choice class features based on Favored Enemy / Terrain that were useful in most walks of the game (e.g. Favored Terrain: Desert might give resistance to fire damage, thus making the heat of the climate not a problem). Maybe that's something that can be done in subclasses. The Arctic Ranger, the Desert Ranger, the Seacoast Ranger. Same for Favored Enemies, perhaps: The Slayer subclass might get the mix-and-match features, or just make a series of X-Slayer subclasses: Aberration Slayer, Dragon Slayer, Beast Slayer, etc.

Jump is now an action. Anything less than 5 feet is 'difficult terrain,' and more than that is a Strength (Athletics or Acrobatics) check, DC 10, with the successful roll setting the long jump distance in feet (or the high jump distance in half of those feet, rounded down). Doesn't count against your movement, but can't be longer distance than your Speed, so it's basically a harder-to-pull-off Dash. It looks like the RAW mean you can't use Climb or (more importantly, considering Cloak of the Manta Ray and creatures known for leaping out of the water) Swim speeds as the limit, though I could see DMs ruling otherwise and it is worth bringing up in feedback to WotC whether that's intentional or not.

Climb Speeds explicitly can be used any time regular Speed could be. Swim Speeds lack such an explicit option. This may seem "obvious," but it actually gets weirdly important, because if you have a special speed (climb, fly, or swim are listed), you must choose which one you're using when you start a move. You can interrupt a move, still, with actions, then keep moving; that hasn't changed. But if you start off using your speed, you can't shift to using your climb or swim speed when you reach a wall or a pond.

Movement difficulties now are phrased as "each foot costs an extra foot," rather than as any sort of doubling. This is consistent wording, so difficult terrain is +1 foot per foot, and climbing or swimming is +1 foot per foot, and being Slowed is +1 foot per foot (you are Slowed, for example, when grappling a creature and dragging him around). So if you're climbing through difficult terrain, that's 3 feet per foot. If you're dragging a grappled creature up a cliff that counts as difficult terrain, while using your normal speed, that's 4 feet per foot.

Climb speeds and Swim speeds, obviously, remove that +1 foot per foot penalty in the respective kinds of movement. But if you start 10 feet from a pond, and want to go dive in because you're a Triton with a 30 foot swim speed, you may or may not be able to use your swim speed on land (it doesn't say you can't, but unlike climb, it doesn't explicitly say you can). If you don't, and use your normal speed, when you dive into the water, you're stuck using your normal speed and thus costing yourself +1 foot of available movement per foot actually swum, despite having a swim speed.

This does make class features that say, "Climbing and swimming do not cost you extra movement," actually better than having a feature that says, "You have a climb/swim speed equal to your speed." (Though a climb speed equal to your regular speed can juts mean you go ahead and use your climb speed all the time, since it can be used explicitly whenever your normal speed applies.)

But it is weird, and awkward. (Oh, and if you Dash, creating a second source of movement, each movement source can be a different speed. So you could use your land speed to get to the pond, swim 10 feet in the lats 20 feet of it, then Dash to get 60 feet of movement from your Cloak of the Manta Ray.)



Hiding is now a flat DC 15 Dexterity(Stealth) check, and you still record a successful roll because what you rolled is the DC for others to use the Search action to spot you with the Wisdom(Perception) check involved. This makes hiding a lot easier, because now it explicitly takes an action for even high-perception creatures to notice you. You only had to make a DC 15, and if they don't take the action, a passive perception 19 creature just doesn't get to spot you.

The Hidden and Invisible conditions both grant "Surprise," which means that if you are under them when you roll initiative, you get advantage on the initiative roll.

Invisible still has the wording that many have argued means that, even if you can "see" them despite their invisibility (e.g. with Blindsight or true seeing), the Invisible creature still has advantage on attacks against you and you still have disadvantage on attacks against him. The invisible creature also still gets advantage on initiative even though you can see him just fine. While it seems obvious to me that Invisible is a relative condition, I do hope they add clauses or rules that specify that these advantages only exist against those who can't see you, and "surprise" doesn't work if anybody on the enemy side can see you.

[huttj509]

3. Bards are said to be limited to Arcane spells of certain schools. But many of their "Restoration" spells aren't on that list. Is this chalked up to Magical Secrets or ?

There's a separate class feature at level 2 which is "bards get these restoration spells on their spells list, always prepared, not counting against spells prepared."