Black Panther: Wakanda Forever

[lord_khaine]

Its true that everything is more clear in hindsight.
So while they could have had stuff that would help against aliens and mermen, its fair they didnt have it.
A lot of places dont. (doesnt change its incorrect nothing would have helped).

Fury/Shield was prudent after the first Alien invasion though. Starting to try and prepare a counter.

[The Glyphstone]

Given that Namor is in the trailer, I'm not going to spoiler mere discussion of water.

Water doesn't *absorb* force as such. Water is dense and incompressible. This makes it hard for a bullet to overcome it, but it makes explosives very, very effective, because it conducts the shock wave of the explosion directly, whereas air compresses. This is why depth charges work so well.

The US has actually conducted underwater nuclear experiments. A large blast like this underwater will create a half-mile wide bubble with no water at all in it for about a second, transmitting a truly insane amount of force far, far beyond this from all that instant displacement. After about another second, the bubble is again gone as the insane water pressure at depth slams it all back. Both forces are staggeringly huge, and such an event can easily be detected worldwide as a result.

Land vs water would be roughly as unbalanced as an orbital society vs a planetbound one. The society lower in the gravity well loses hard.
.

I'd call land vs water more a case of mutually assured destruction myself. An orbital force is the next best thing to immune to counter attack from the surface, but a submerged civilization can turn that incompressibility of water into a weapon too. Nuclear depth charges will ruin their day, but retaliatory mega-tsunamis would be apocalyptically devastating to anyone with a coastline to speak of.

[Tyndmyr]

Okay but can you do the same thing without nukes? Using more traditional things such as Depth Charges?

Yes, though at a smaller scale. The incompressibility of water still makes them lethal at great distances, and they do not need to directly hit a submarine to sink it as a result. WW2 was the last time these things were used on a truly broad scale, but the same basic principles hold true.

If you pop a 250 pound bomb fifty feet away from someone, you're looking at over 2,000 psi. For a human, that's extreme overkill. As portrayed, the Atlanteans are tougher than average, but a pistol bullet is as lethal on them as anyone else, and a pistol bullet would not generally penetrate a submarine. So, I feel fairly safe estimating that depth charge hits that would kill a submarine would easily kill an Atlantean.

A British 290 lb depth charge was said to be a sure kill within 22 feet, and within twice that distance would inflict sufficient damage to force it to the surface crippled(a status that was pretty much as good as a kill). Modern day depth charges run 400 lbs, and while I can't easily find numbers on how far they are effective, I would assume that the added punch extends the blast radius somewhat.

Specifically, Cape Verde is a set of islands the opposite side of the Atlantic from where Nakia was infiltrating the prison. The whole movie shows that Wakandans can go anywhere in the world extremely quickly. Ramonda met Namor on neutral ground to distract him. The location is in the onscreen text (Curral Velho, Cape Verde).

The map there would put Wakanda somewhere on the Turkwel river.

Ah, well, fair enough. But that doesn't change that Wakanda is portrayed as fairly coastal in this rendition. Even if we're calling them massive rivers rather than the ocean, they are surely large enough to conflict with their far inland Africa portrayal earlier, and no such bodies of water were visible in Infinity War.

The Turkwel river is not nearly so large as portrayed, especially far inland...and is often completely seasonally dry. It does not seem as if they felt very constrained by real world geography. Which, for a fictional country is kind of fine, I only really object to the inconsistency.

I'd call land vs water more a case of mutually assured destruction myself. An orbital force is the next best thing to immune to counter attack from the surface, but a submerged civilization can turn that incompressibility of water into a weapon too. Nuclear depth charges will ruin their day, but retaliatory mega-tsunamis would be apocalyptically devastating to anyone with a coastline to speak of.

Sort of, but gravity and density works against them. Depth charges are effective, but submarines do not really use counter depth charges. They must rely on far more elaborate torpedoes....and the Atlanteans have no such tech. The most advanced tech we see them use is the water grenades and face masks. They fight with strength and spears, not ships and remotely piloted weaponry. They could attack the coast, particularly where it is undefended given the advantages of their water powers, but the ability to raid and murder isn't the ability to win a war.

Consider a regular attack aircraft flying at altitude. With the exception of Nemo, they can do nothing to it, and it can kill them at will. Anything well outside of spear shot is basically safe. Nemo himself can alter that fight a great deal, but someone like, say, War Machine would gut their army swiftly.

[Ramza00]

Side note on the subject of depth charges and related things.

The water grenades / Talokanil Water Bombs seem to break the conservation of mass rule we assume the MCU rules on. They are able to add more water to the room than the size of a grenade, making a skyscraper “flooded” full of water, when a few grenades were the inciting item and were able to be carried by a single man.

=====

Spoiler: Back to the point I was making earlier

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Weapons of mass destruction is always an option, but I do not think the story would go there for it is not the type of story the MCU wants to tell. There are no heroes in such a story, only monsters.

But since MAD is always an option, and the goal, and the type of tech both sides possess I foresee a conflict being peace laden with a Wakanda and Talokanil alliance. What the surface world wants is Vibranium but it is a extremely high risk and high reward conflict for attempting to obtain undersea Vibranium will escalate so quickly. One can not “posses” it without quickly flirting with MAD, the whole oxygen problem for both sides prevents the creation of permanent bases, footholds, etc.

Especially if Talokanil and Wakanda form an alliance and they have a working Vibranium detector with Wakanda. Anytime a terrestrial land source gains Vibranium that is not part of the Wakanda inventor it will be so easy to do a reprisal preventing this foothold. Neither side can not possess what they want, without mass death, their ways of life are too far apart, and there will be quick escalation to MAD if someone tries to subvert the status quo.

[lord_khaine]

The water grenades / Talokanil Water Bombs seem to break the conservation of mass rule we assume the MCU rules on.

No we dont? that rule gets broken so often its barely a lose guideline.

[Talakeal]

No we dont? that rule gets broken so often its barely a lose guideline.

Pretty much.

Pym particles? Nano-Tech Iron Man Armor? The Incredible Hulk?

What conservation of mass?

[Peelee]

The Incredible Hulk?

Like plants, most of The Incredible Hulk's mass comes from the carbon dioxide in the air (hence why he is green). This also explains why storylines involving Bruce Banner transforming into the Hulk and then being taken off planet are popular, as they are often cited as an environmentally friendly carbon reduction method.

[thatSeniorGuy]

Like plants, most of The Incredible Hulk's mass comes from the carbon dioxide in the air (hence why he is green). This also explains why storylines involving Bruce Banner transforming into the Hulk and then being taken off planet are popular, as they are often cited as an environmentally friendly carbon reduction method.

... I'm 99% sure you're joking, but given how comics books are I can't entirely dismiss what you're saying.

[Sapphire Guard]

By far the most effective thing Wakanda has are those invisible jets, which is why they have to keep forgetting they exist.

It's always hard to tell how much superhero suits can be mass produced. What do they cost to produce and maintain, how much training do you need to pilot them, how many people will you lose to training accidents, how many androids will shake off their programming and become Ultron.

Spoiler

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And Namor and Thanos would be able to take them anyway.

[lord_khaine]

Thanos in his prime fought an out of shape Thor, Captain America wielding Mjølner, and Iron Man at the same time.
So i find it excusable if your defense plan dont account for him.

I dont know how badass movie Namor is. But comic Namor goes toe to toe with the thing.
Who himself is strong/tough enough to survive all out brawls with Hulk and Thor.
So i also find it excusable if your defense plan dont account for handling him.

But their armies is another matter i think.

Something that also makes we wonder who there are actually left to handle Namor, or jerks like him.
Basically all the heavy hitters of the Avengers are dead, gone, or no longer really a combatant.

[Tyndmyr]

Thanos in his prime fought an out of shape Thor, Captain America wielding Mjølner, and Iron Man at the same time.
So i find it excusable if your defense plan dont account for him.

Yeah, most militaries cannot reasonably take on Thanos, though....they probably should have tried the nuke plan. Might not have worked, given stones and all the BS they invoke. That said, all of Infinity War happens over a very short time span, because teleportation is awesome. So, it kind of makes sense that conventional forces are largely irrelevant to it. Not much they can do outside of scrap with the army of minions. And that's portrayed, so...kinda fair, yknow?

I dont know how badass movie Namor is. But comic Namor goes toe to toe with the thing.
Who himself is strong/tough enough to survive all out brawls with Hulk and Thor.
So i also find it excusable if your defense plan dont account for handling him.

MCU Namor is quite powerful, albeit in a flying brick sort of way. Not portrayed as overly smart. And even strength wise, I would not say as powerful as Thanos. Thanos goes toe to toe with...pretty much everyone in the MCU. Often many at once. Namor can definitely chuck around, say, a train car sized mass, but so could Spiderman. Spiderman being a lot more clever, Spidey probably wins head to head v Namor in the MCU. Spidey definitely cannot solo Thanos.

Something that also makes we wonder who there are actually left to handle Namor, or jerks like him.
Basically all the heavy hitters of the Avengers are dead, gone, or no longer really a combatant.

We are kind of missing the unity of the early MCU. Despite having shown replacements for pretty much all the original Avengers, they haven't had a teamup movie or the like. The concept of the Avengers appears to have just...largely vanished post-Blip?

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler: MCU Namor

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MCU Namor's power depends on how much water is nearby, but he still beat BP after being put through a drying machine, although he broke out before the process was complete. So it's going to fluctuate a lot.

Shuri tried to move him to a desert and failed. He's more or less indestructable if there is water nearby.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah, most militaries cannot reasonably take on Thanos, though....they probably should have tried the nuke plan. Might not have worked, given stones and all the BS they invoke. That said, all of Infinity War happens over a very short time span, because teleportation is awesome. So, it kind of makes sense that conventional forces are largely irrelevant to it. Not much they can do outside of scrap with the army of minions. And that's portrayed, so...kinda fair, yknow?

I was thinking about a stoneless Thanos. With stones its GG.
While for the conventional forces. They were to a large degree reliant on foreign super heroes for that.

MCU Namor is quite powerful, albeit in a flying brick sort of way. Not portrayed as overly smart. And even strength wise, I would not say as powerful as Thanos. Thanos goes toe to toe with...pretty much everyone in the MCU. Often many at once. Namor can definitely chuck around, say, a train car sized mass, but so could Spiderman. Spiderman being a lot more clever, Spidey probably wins head to head v Namor in the MCU. Spidey definitely cannot solo Thanos.

That does seem about an order of magnitude stronger than Spiderman?
Who could catch a thrown car with a bit of effort.

[GloatingSwine]

That does seem about an order of magnitude stronger than Spiderman?
Who could catch a thrown car with a bit of effort.

Most things undersell Spider-Man. Catching cars is pretty easy for him.

[ecarden]

Most things undersell Spider-Man. Catching cars is pretty easy for him.

I mean, a lot of this assumes constant power levels/strength, which just...isn't the case in either the comics or the MCU? This is most obvious in stuff like 'what does peak human mean?' Does it mean basically olympic athlete, or does it mean can hold down a helicopter with his bare hands? And in some cases (Namor/Hulk for instance) it can be justified in universe. But mostly characters are exactly as strong as they need to be for the plot to work. Why can Captain America fight Loki for longer than a second? Because he's a main character and that's what the author wants.

[lord_khaine]

Most things undersell Spider-Man. Catching cars is pretty easy for him.

Not Movie Spiderman. Catching cars seems to be close to the upper limit of his ability.

[Tyndmyr]

I mean, a lot of this assumes constant power levels/strength, which just...isn't the case in either the comics or the MCU? This is most obvious in stuff like 'what does peak human mean?' Does it mean basically olympic athlete, or does it mean can hold down a helicopter with his bare hands? And in some cases (Namor/Hulk for instance) it can be justified in universe. But mostly characters are exactly as strong as they need to be for the plot to work. Why can Captain America fight Loki for longer than a second? Because he's a main character and that's what the author wants.

Yeah, that's most definitely a thing in the MCU. Gotta kind of judge characters by a broad average of what they do. Cap holding back Thanos at all shouldn't be doable, they're wildly out of scale with one another. But comics gonna comic.

On the average, Spidey is treated as really strong. He doesn't rely on it in the way that the Hulk does, he's very much about using his wits first, but examples like him holding the ferry together or holding back a collapsing building are pretty common to just about any movie he's in. It's definitely somewhere significantly north of car level, though he can also definitely lift a car. He usually will dodge attacks even if he could tank them, though, and is very agile. Namor is sort of similar in that he's also nimble, and both move in 3d space effectively. Namor might be slightly stronger, but he also might just rely on strength more. We don't see him do anything terribly clever. Of the two, Spidey is definitely more likely to pull his punches.

[Delicious Taffy]

We are kind of missing the unity of the early MCU. Despite having shown replacements for pretty much all the original Avengers, they haven't had a teamup movie or the like. The concept of the Avengers appears to have just...largely vanished post-Blip?

We have uhhhhhh, and ummmmm, and I think Spider-Man and Doctor Strange are still active, and then there's uhhhhhhhh.

I haven't seen anything newer than Loki, show-wise, so I guess the title characters of whatever's out right now? Things sorta fell apart after they beat Thanos, honestly. Like, there's probably a bunch of heros still, but I can name maybe 3 if Sam is still active.

[Tyndmyr]

We have uhhhhhh, and ummmmm, and I think Spider-Man and Doctor Strange are still active, and then there's uhhhhhhhh.

I haven't seen anything newer than Loki, show-wise, so I guess the title characters of whatever's out right now? Things sorta fell apart after they beat Thanos, honestly. Like, there's probably a bunch of heros still, but I can name maybe 3 if Sam is still active.

Given that Thor has been off doing GOTG stuff and does not appear to be active on Earth at present, let's see....

Sam, as Falconcap.
Bruce Banner, in theory. I guess She-Hulk might be handing off the mantle, but I didn't watch anything after the pilot, so I have no idea if Hulk is written out or not.
War Machine, I guess? He hasn't been super focal, but I guess in theory he's around.
Captain Marvel, albeit mostly in the "brief cameo to explain that I've been offplanet" sense.

Everyone has either been written out/replaced or gone their own way, pretty much.

Like, Ant-man is around, in theory, but he's always bit a bit of an outsider to the Avengers, and it appears that in his upcoming sequel, he's working with the cast of his previous solo movies, not the Avengers. Maybe it'll tie back in through Kang eventually?

[Dragonus45]

Given that Thor has been off doing GOTG stuff and does not appear to be active on Earth at present, let's see....

Sam, as Falconcap.
Bruce Banner, in theory. I guess She-Hulk might be handing off the mantle, but I didn't watch anything after the pilot, so I have no idea if Hulk is written out or not.
War Machine, I guess? He hasn't been super focal, but I guess in theory he's around.
Captain Marvel, albeit mostly in the "brief cameo to explain that I've been offplanet" sense.

Everyone has either been written out/replaced or gone their own way, pretty much.

Like, Ant-man is around, in theory, but he's always bit a bit of an outsider to the Avengers, and it appears that in his upcoming sequel, he's working with the cast of his previous solo movies, not the Avengers. Maybe it'll tie back in through Kang eventually?

Sam and Bucky are still doing their paramilitary buddy cop thing yea.

Bruce is not written out and actually is getting new plotlines opened up for him.

Spoiler: She Hulk spoilers for anyone who actually cares

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He only leaves for the duration of the She-Hulk plot and now he is back with Skaar in tow.

Rhodey has always been more of a secondary character to Stark's stuff and the actual replacement moving forward will probably be Riri if she tests well enough since Spider-Man's story turned out to be about him ultimately losing the safety net and position as Stark's successor he had had and Don Cheadle is getting old enough that a long term stint as an action star is unlikely. But he apparently will have a big role in Secret Wars so we will see.

Captain Marvel was never an original Avenger, she has been pretty clearly set up for this new iteration of the team more then anything else.

Yea, we are waiting on Kang to tie all this stuff together. The new MCU plan has been a disparate scattershot of ideas waiting for something to pin it all together, because ultimately Marvel is waiting to see what works.

[Wintermoot]

Given that Thor has been off doing GOTG stuff and does not appear to be active on Earth at present, let's see....

Sam, as Falconcap.
Bruce Banner, in theory. I guess She-Hulk might be handing off the mantle, but I didn't watch anything after the pilot, so I have no idea if Hulk is written out or not.
War Machine, I guess? He hasn't been super focal, but I guess in theory he's around.
Captain Marvel, albeit mostly in the "brief cameo to explain that I've been offplanet" sense.

Everyone has either been written out/replaced or gone their own way, pretty much.

Like, Ant-man is around, in theory, but he's always bit a bit of an outsider to the Avengers, and it appears that in his upcoming sequel, he's working with the cast of his previous solo movies, not the Avengers. Maybe it'll tie back in through Kang eventually?

How is any of this different than how the MCU has always been?

Prior to the first avengers you had Iron man doing two solo adventures, Thor briefly visiting earth then leaving again and Captain America in 1945 then waking up in current time. The connecting point was SHIELD which was the big power defending earth from threats foreign and domestic up until that point. They had a few super agents current (Black Widow and Hawkeye) and former (Antman and the Wasp in the 80s) and in process (Thunderbolt Ross's military program for recreating the super soldier process that birthed the Hulk)

Then the heroes got together to fight Loki and the Chitauri Invasion that really shook up the world (and Tony Stark) by showing that alien life exists and is hostile.

After that, we had another Iron Man solo adventure where he "hung up the tights" (for about 5 minutes), another thor adventure where he lost the ability to travel back to earth at the end (for about 5 minutes) and a captain america adventure where he DISMANTLED SHIELD revealing that it was hopeless corrupt from within and secretly evil all along.

Then we had the second avengers movie, which was the first time it was indicated that the heroes were still workign together as a team. Nothing in the three solo adventures between 1 and 2 signaled that. And we find out that Tony and Bruce have built a massive robot army to serve as a new protection element only to have it go evil and have to be destroyed. At the end of Avengers 2 we establish that Thor goes off world again, Iron man retires (again) and Cap and Black widow start a new team of avengers that includes Scarlet Witch, Vision, Falcon and War Machine.

Great. We never see any work done by this group until Captain America Civil War (Avengers 2.5) where this team is immediately dismantled and splits up with half the heroes being forced underground.

So then we have a couple years where presumedly Cap, Falcon, Widow and Scarlet Witch are doing hero stuff secretly and Iron Man, Rhodey and Vision are the entirity of America's accepted Avengers doign stuff with Thunderbolt Ross like building prisons and official superhero works. But, again, we don't really see that its just implied.

Then we have the big Thanos project of Infinity War and Endgame where... woof... the world is just destroyed for five years then has to rebuild (most of which, as expected, is glossed over)

So who do we have now?

Captain America and the Winter Soldier are still out there doing heroics both officially and unofficially.
SHIELD is back in action or near enough
Doctor Strange, Wong and his Hundreds of Wizards are taking a more active role in protecting the world,
Hulk is still doing science hero things, much more openly.
Rhodey is still working for the army and doing iron man things.
Wakanda has build outreach centers and are helping out in places
New Heroes are working quietly (Eternals, Shang Chi, Daredevil, She-Hulk, Spiderman, Ms Marvel etc)
Antman, based on the preview, has become a celebrity so presumedly he's doing hero work.
Hawk-guy is active sporadically when needed.

And we see, in the Shang Chi post credit scene, that they are working together sporadically when Wong, Captain Marvel and Hulk all meet holographically to discuss the 10 rings.

Rather than living in one club house, they are each working alone but keeping each other informed, the same way they did in the blip period when Black Widow was running the collaboration.

We know there are two new Avengers movies (Kang Dynasty and Secret War) coming up in 2024, so that will be the next time we see them all working together, which I would assume will be a collaboration using a lot of these new toys along with the remainder of the old toys.

I don't really see how they are in worse shape now than they were at any point between the prior collab movies honestly. Thor was ALWAYS off planet. Iron Man was always retired except when he wasn't. Sam has replaced Cap, Rhodey has replaced Tony, Hulk and Dr Strange are more prominant in their roles. *shrug*

[Dragonus45]

How is any of this different than how the MCU has always been?

Because previously they pretended to have a plan, so when they threw a lot of things at the wall to see what stuck they could say they meant it all along and a wider public not used to comic book backfill retcon chicanery ate it up like candy thinking there really was a master plan at work, because at bare minimum they had an upfront through line that started with "We are making the Avenger movie" and from there they built up Thanos for years as a clear endpoint. Now though, they have the budget and the platform to really stretch out and try new things and put out all these series half of which would have been better paced and more interesting as movies and they are still just tossing out to see what works but the cracks are showing and I mostly blame it on them feeling like they don't need to hide them anymore.

[Tyndmyr]

How is any of this different than how the MCU has always been?

Sure, arguably it has always been at least a little improv and slapdash. Early on, though, there were a relatively small number of established heroes.

It makes perfect sense that Hulk and Iron Man are not working together, because Hulk is in hiding early on. Cap is an ice cube, and Thor shows up from space. In every case, you have the sense that people notice the new development, and there are at least small nods to continuity. Hawkeye appears in Thor, for instance, and you've got all the SHIELD glue.

Everybody is getting together, and while it makes sense initially that they are not familiar, phase 1 has a very sound buildup towards the Avengers.

I'd argue that IM 3 and Thor 2 were...off a bit. A weak point before they again found their footing. Neither film fits in very well, and they are probably among the less favored films in the MCU, or at least, were until this latest batch. New hero introductions mostly worked around this time. Ant-Man has good reasons why he's sort of laying low, GotG are off in space, so that's solved.

The problem is that now we have a ton of characters for them to keep straight, and it feels as if "just ignore it" is the de facto answer. This is further complicated by the "we've always been here" setup of new powers. There's no reasonable way to explain the events of Eternals not attracting attention from other heroes. There's no reasonable way to explain everybody just ignoring Nemo and his underwater army.

Sure, we're willing to tacitly overlook TV shows like Inhumans that have yet another race of MCU superbeings that don't mesh well anywhere, but it feels as if the entire ball of plot has gotten overly convoluted and lacking in direction. The previous weak point was two directionless films. We're on eight films since Endgame, and Kang has only really gotten attention in a TV show.

[GloatingSwine]

The problem is that now we have a ton of characters for them to keep straight, and it feels as if "just ignore it" is the de facto answer. This is further complicated by the "we've always been here" setup of new powers. There's no reasonable way to explain the events of Eternals not attracting attention from other heroes. There's no reasonable way to explain everybody just ignoring Nemo and his underwater army.

They're kinda at the point of critical mass where they have to just ignore it otherwise every title has to spend more time explaining why such-and-such isn't turning up than it does on its own plot.

Ignoring the problem is how the comics have handled it for decades.

[Tyndmyr]

It's mostly an issue with every plot being a "save the world" type thing.

Nobody really has an issue with the more street level comics, or adventures like Strange's where other heroes have no real way to participate.

Big ol' world threatening apocalypses are harder to justify. Both in comics and on screen, some comics are definitely frigging crazy, no argument there.

[Giggling Ghast]

I saw this today. My brother was surprised to hear me rate it at 6.5/10. I thought it was enjoyable and I particularly applaud the new BP design, but I had some niggling issues with the plot and the implications of Talokan from a worldbuilding perspective.

For instance, if Talokan has always been around, then wouldn’t the city have been affected by Thanos’ Snap like the rest of universe? Why didn’t the erasure of half their population prompt Namor to come to the surface to ask “Why the heck did half my people just turn into dust?”

Also, regarding the death of the Queen, I feel like that could have been done a little better. She was only in the water for a few minutes; it feels like that was the world’s fastest drowning. Also, Wakanda lacks the technology to bring back a recent drowning victim?

On a final note, Martin Freeman’s Agent Ross could have been cut down to a single scene without losing anything, and Riri Williams was either poorly-cast or poorly-written because that was a spectacularly unimpressive debut.

[Ranxerox]

For instance, if Talokan has always been around, then wouldn’t the city have been affected by Thanos’ Snap like the rest of universe? Why didn’t the erasure of half their population prompt Namor to come to the surface to ask “Why the heck did half my people just turn into dust?”

Maybe, Namor was dusted and the remaining people of Talokan were too busy with the effects of losing him and half their population to even wonder about what the people on the surface were doing.

Despite Thanos' Snap being a huge thing, people aren't going just ask everyone they meet how they spent the Blip. So, we the fans need to either stop asking these questions or just get use to having to supply our own explanations, like the one that I just gave to you.

[Psyren]

We are kind of missing the unity of the early MCU. Despite having shown replacements for pretty much all the original Avengers, they haven't had a teamup movie or the like. The concept of the Avengers appears to have just...largely vanished post-Blip?

There's no unifying meta-threat yet. The Infinity Stones were that for Phase 1, which later got transitioned to the guy most successful at collecting them (Thanos). Now they are no more and there's nothing to "avenge."

I think Quantamania will be our first glimpse at the next such threat. (Well, Loki kind of was, but it also wasn't.)

[Deadkitten]

There's no unifying meta-threat yet. The Infinity Stones were that for Phase 1, which later got transitioned to the guy most successful at collecting them (Thanos). Now they are no more and there's nothing to "avenge."

I think Quantamania will be our first glimpse at the next such threat. (Well, Loki kind of was, but it also wasn't.)

I agree. I'm not sold on kang being the new Thanos. I'm kinda leaning towards them just giving him the Ultron treatment and he is gone after the next avengers or gets sidelined to occasional shenanigans

[M1982]

Spoiler: The New Black Panther and Wakandan Royalty

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I don't like Shuri as the new Black Panther, even putting all my issues with her actress aside that I won't elaborate on here. Physically, she's nowhere near ready for the role; she's as skinny as a twig, she doesn't look at all believable in melee, her suit is lame (come on, you're the gadget queen, couldn't you add one new feature to it?) and her fighting style doesn't incorporate any kind of cool agility or techniques. And for the role itself, she takes the power for all the wrong reasons - desire for revenge, lack of respect for the spiritual aspects, and worst of all, putting herself at colossal risk with an untested herb despite being the only one with a prayer of synthesizing more of it in the whole kingdom. And don't get me started on her getting Killmonger's spiritual endorsement of all people, which to me suggests her tenure won't be long, or the fact that Wakanda now has a succession crisis in the making if she ever ends up having children of her own (maybe her fake herb will nip that in the bud, no pun intended, by making her sterile though.) Oh wait, they might have one anyway, since I guess M'Baku is running unopposed for the throne now too? What if he has kids? I can't help but think about this stuff!

Actually I don't see a problem here. Or at least don't see how the problem got any bigger. There whole succession system seems to be based on any member of a tribe leader family being allowed to fight for the right to become king on every royal succession. It's more a matter of having been diplomatically successful so that no other eligible claimant actually steps forward to challenge your heir and/or having your heir being trained well enough to beat the snot out of any challenger.

With the whole Killmonger incident it seems even worse, as obviously that's not even limited to just the occasion of a succession, but rather any eligible claimant can step forward to challenge the living reigning king at any time?

So

Spoiler: FFA

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T'challa junior, any potential offspring of Shuri and any potential offspring of M'Baku (whether or not he has a stint as reigning king) and any yet unknown heir of any other tribe leader could duke it out at any time totally independent of Shuri's deeds

In Wakanda's defense, I think they fared better than most conventional militaries would have against the likes of the Children of Thanos or a race of aquatic supersoldiers with seemingly infinite ordnance.

The super powered children? Maybe.

Against the actual army they were leading definitely not. Warmachine was way more effective by essentially being a small version of what a conventional military would unleash on them.

Also against the aquatic supersoldiers the few Spec Ops on the oil rig seemed better at killing them than the Wakandians. They were overwhelmed due to being only a dozen or so strong and grossly outnumbered, but they sold themselves more effectively than then Wakandans