OOTS #1270 - The Discussion Thread

[gbaji]

Sunny was literally the next encounter the Order was supposed to face in Dorukan's Dungeon after the intellectual property issue with the squiddy-faced brain-eater guy. Sunny worked for Dorukan.

Yes. And the flashback scene in strip 1270 occurs immediately before the events in that strip (32). I don't think anyone was disputing this. What does it have to do with whether they came to the dungeon together, or who knew Dorukan was dead at that point or not?

All of the assumptions made based on what you call fact are similarly flawed. They are your speculation based on what you want to believe. Is that not the heinous crime of which I am guilty? But, no, I admit I am speculating.

Flawed similar to what? You said "similarly flawed". What are my assumptions similar to, and in which way are they flawed? Heck. Which assumptions are you talking about?

And no. They are not speculations based on what "I want to believe". They are reasonable extrapolations based on what has actually been written into the comic itself. I'm assuming that if Serini says something that indicates strongly that she didn't know Dorukan was dead at that point in time (immediately before strip #32), then the most reasonable interpretation of that is... wait for it.. that she didn't know Dorukan was dead at that time.

My "speculations" are merely responses to other people's speculations designed to dispute or dismiss things stated pretty clearly in the comic, by merely pointing out that there are far simpler explanations which allow them to be true than would allow us to conclude they are false. Are they still speculations? Sure. Some of them are. But the burden of speculation is a lot higher if you're attempting to buck the default assumption within a narrative (declaring that Serini must be lying to Sunny for example), then it is for merely supporting it.

If I was playing Serini, I would have been curious enough to learn a bit more than is shown. I am glad that you support my previous speculation about repeated interrogations of the paladins.

It's odd that you previously speculated this (it seemed obvious to me that they were interrogated multiple times using the amnesia potion the very first time I read that strip, and have been gobsmacked at all the people attempting to come up with Occam's razor bashing explanations for it instead), and yet you still followed up with the statement in this thread that she had intimate knowledge of what Xykon was doing in the throne room of Azure city, as support for an allegation that she must therefore have known that Dorukan was dead prior to the flashback scene (and therefor must have lied to Sunny for some reason). Dunno. I'd think that you'd be pushing the opposite argument if that was what you believed happened instead of rushing down a long series of leaps that only works if you assume one of the differing opinions (that she has epic scrying, or intelligence capabilities, or was physically sneaking around there, spied on the folks on the island, etc).

And I *do* think Serini was curious. Right up until she saw that the lich that curb stomped her was the one involved.

Are you certain that is how she did it? It's not shown in comic, so it's just speculation. So far as we know for a fact, the only time she spoke to the paladins after the dart episode was when they woke up in shackles.

Sure. We only know for sure what was shown in comic panels. But it seems pretty absurd to assume that they just slept for three days. They were darted right here. Oh. I was wrong. ETA was two days, not three. Still seems absurd that she just kept them there for all that time, woke them up and talked with them for like 5 minutes, and then ran off to go ambush the Order, when she absolutely had time for dozens of similar length sessions and could have collected a ton of information from them.

It's speculation, but it's very reasonable speculation. It explains every single thing she knew, and doesn't require anything to support it other than what is literally shown to us right in the scene itself. Every other explanation as to how she knew about O'Chul's actions in the throne room require massive speculation and introduction of completely new and unstated assumptions. Again. Occam's razor applies here (well, the common interpretation anyway).

And literally every door in Monster Hollow has a teleportation device. Why would she set up literally hundreds of them, yet forget to set up a few that went to important places she might want to visit? Is she stupid? Or just lazy after having already built so many?

We don't know exactly how those devices work. Probably pretty short range, and likely from/to specific defined points built into the dungeon itself. It's one thing to hire someone to create something like that for you. It's another entirely to build a global network of such things.

Let's also not forget that she was the one who insisted on the "no visiting" rule. Why would she have put in teleportation points near the other gates? I mean, she could have, but again we're in "wild speculation" territory here IMO.

And that is my issue. That's what is bugging me. Any halfway decent rogue has informers, contact info for experts for hire, and even a few handy magic items. But, from what is shown, Serini has chilled at the North Pole while 80% of the defences holding her reality together fall.

She's retired. She also seems to have shifted her focus away from the hustle and bustle of civilized society and more or less dropped off the grid. Honestly, it seems as though all of the Scribblers more or less retired to their various gate locations and disconnected with the rest of society in order to guard them. She seemed to have at least intended to continue the adventuring life, and presumably did so. But that was still a long time ago. How active are her contacts today? Those are somewhat "use it or lose it" type things.

If she were an actively operating epic rogue, I'd be inclined to agree with you. For someone who appears to have retired a decade or two ago (which is still long after the rest of her original party retired), not so much.

She's not that stupid. And, as this comic shows, she has not simply waited on the sidelines. We don't know what she has or has not done, but I utterly reject the notion that she has done nothing. It is out of character for Serini.

I didn't say she did nothing at all. And hey. It's entirely possible that she involved herself in a bunch of other stuff going on at the other two gates as well that all occurred in the background and we just never knew about it. No way to know unless a strip shows us. But it's also quite possible that she only went to check out Dorukan's dungeon after she was attacked, knowing she was in violation of "the rules", but wanting to take that risk (and maybe poach some monsters while there), just to "see what was going on". And when she found out Dorukan had been killed, and there was a super powerful lich behind it (same one who attacked her), and he was on a mission to capture a gate? She may have retreated at that point to her own gate to defend it (that was the whole part of her plan originally anyway, right?).

Dunno. I'm just following up from what we've seen of her. She's scared of Xykon. She's probably been just hoping that he'll either be destroyed, or capture another gate and never get to her. But when that didn't work out? She had to get involved herself. And that didn't work out for her either. You don't have to be "stupid" to be mistaken, or to be scared. She's behaving like a real person. Flaws and all.

[Liquor Box]

Sunny was literally the next encounter the Order was supposed to face in Dorukan's Dungeon after the intellectual property issue with the squiddy-faced brain-eater guy. Sunny worked for Dorukan.

All of the assumptions made based on what you call fact are similarly flawed. They are your speculation based on what you want to believe. Is that not the heinous crime of which I am guilty? But, no, I admit I am speculating.

If I was playing Serini, I would have been curious enough to learn a bit more than is shown. I am glad that you support my previous speculation about repeated interrogations of the paladins. Are you certain that is how she did it? It's not shown in comic, so it's just speculation. So far as we know for a fact, the only time she spoke to the paladins after the dart episode was when they woke up in shackles.

And literally every door in Monster Hollow has a teleportation device. Why would she set up literally hundreds of them, yet forget to set up a few that went to important places she might want to visit? Is she stupid? Or just lazy after having already built so many?

And that is my issue. That's what is bugging me. Any halfway decent rogue has informers, contact info for experts for hire, and even a few handy magic items. But, from what is shown, Serini has chilled at the North Pole while 80% of the defences holding her reality together fall.

She's not that stupid. And, as this comic shows, she has not simply waited on the sidelines. We don't know what she has or has not done, but I utterly reject the notion that she has done nothing. It is out of character for Serini.

Everyone is speculating. But there is speculation that is consistent with what has been shown in the comic, and speculation that either contradicts what has been shown in the comic or requires some improbable leaps of faith to explain.

People have proposed lots of possible explanations for how Serini could know the things she knows, and not have known about Dorukon's death. I don't think anyone has said that they are certain of how she knows what she does - so they/we are all speculating too. But that speculation is consistent with what we have seen of her, so it would seem a plausible explanation.

I think a lot of people are objecting to your speculation because they think (as do I) that it is not consistent with what we have seen, or requires an improbabl interpretation of aspects of the comic (and in particular the latest strip). So most people (including me) are of the opinion that your speculation is not plausible.

[hamishspence]

Sunny was literally the next encounter the Order was supposed to face in Dorukan's Dungeon after the intellectual property issue with the squiddy-faced brain-eater guy. Sunny worked for Dorukan.

1270 recontextualises 32. In 32, the presumption is that the Order would have fought Sunny next.


In 1270, the idea is that Sunny was to go over and help the Order deal with the Mind Flayer - but before Sunny could do that, the Lawyers dragged the mind flayer off, and Sunny was not needed.

The constant description by Sunny of Serini as "Mom" and Sunny stating that Serini was the one who raised them - is what leads me to conclude that Serini brought Sunny with her on her trip into Dorukan's dungeon.

[danielxcutter]

I wonder if Sunny was primarily raised by Serini when they were a baby? While I subscribe to the "sentient mortals with free will should not really have racial alignment set in stone" school of thought I know Rich does, it's still true that there are enough cultural influences in the world to nudge people towards unpleasant paths. I mean... compare Azure City, which at least had a prominent and highly active order of paladins operating from there, with places like, y'know, Greysky City or the Empire of Blood.(Not that there aren't any bad Azurites, obviously, but as a society I mean.)

[arimareiji]

How, specifically, you think she got that knowledge? I ask because the ways I imagine she got the information about Soon's gate wouldn't work for Durkon's death....

All of the witnesses to Durkon's death were either members of Team evil, or trapped inside a soul gem.

Just making sure, hooray autocorrupt changing Dorukan?

(One of the few instances where I couldn't blame it too much for doing so, since heretofore Durkon was a lot more common and even my human brain gets them confused.)

I can think of at least one major and not-unlikely method you haven't listed, so I'm hesitant to assume any given list is exhaustive.

Personally I still think 1) she brews potions, and 2) a potion of ESP would be ridiculously OP in the hands of a cunning rogue (who also has a cauldron full of amnesia potion) interrogating paladins.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think ESP specifically is a thing in this edition. Detect Thoughts might work at least?

[Fyraltari]

Sunny was literally the next encounter the Order was supposed to face in Dorukan's Dungeon after the intellectual property issue with the squiddy-faced brain-eater guy. Sunny worked for Dorukan.

No, they weren't. They were meant to appear in the next strip, which they didn't because of the lawyers. Sunny is Serini's adopted child.

And literally every door in Monster Hollow has a teleportation device. Why would she set up literally hundreds of them, yet forget to set up a few that went to important places she might want to visit? Is she stupid? Or just lazy after having already built so many?

Kraagor's Tomb is not covered by Cloister. Also, She has no magical ability, she can't set these up herself. Also, Also, she can do whatever she wants at her own Gate, but Dorukan is unlikely to take kindly to her installing a backdoor at his. How much do you think she was willing to bet on the teleportation specialist not noticing a teleport in his own backyards for decades?

Any halfway decent rogue has informers, contact info for experts for hire

Haley doesn't.

She's not that stupid. And, as this comic shows, she has not simply waited on the sidelines. We don't know what she has or has not done, but I utterly reject the notion that she has done nothing. It is out of character for Serini.

The waiting game is has been her entire plan this whole book.

[hamishspence]

Given that the Order were about level 9 or so at that point (according to the Class and Geekery thread)

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=533

, and given that Beholders are CR 13, and given that Xykon said (in the intro to Dungeon Crawling Fools) that the monsters in the dungeon are to be specifically arranged "weakest at the top, strongest at the bottom" (because Xykon wants the Order to get to the bottom and activate the gate to maximise the amount of entertainment he gets) Sunny is a massive outlier in what would be expected to be fought.

Hence it making sense that Sunny wasn't put there by Dorukan or Xykon at all.

EDIT: Turns out Xykon didn't know for certain that the Order could deactivate the seals, allowing him to access the gate, till the fight with Nale.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html

Still, TPK at the start of the dungeon is not entertaining enough for Xykon - hence the "have them encounter monsters, weakest to strongest" plan.

[danielxcutter]

Sunny could be a young, not fully grown beholder, going by their number of eyestalks and size. But considering that mind flayers are about CR 9, that does certainly tilt the scales closer to Sunny being an outlier(and therefore probably not from the dungeon).

[Kornaki]

I'm still stuck on a dumb question. Why do you think any of the monsters the order fought worked for Dorukan, and not for Xykon?

[danielxcutter]

Because some of Dorukan's employees literally didn't know he was dead for months.

[Metastachydium]

Still, TPK at the start of the dungeon is not entertaining enough for Xykon - hence the "have them encounter monsters, weakest to strongest" plan.

I think he'd find it friggin' hilarious, actually.

No, they weren't. They were meant to appear in the next strip, which they didn't because of the lawyers. Sunny is Serini's adopted child.

And even beyond that ("Hey, random beholder! I'm your mother now" "K, weird half-troll lady." – just how lifelike does that sound to you, brian?) it's not like all the monsters in there are meant to be Dorukan's staff. The man was Neutral Good, for rot's sake! Why on earth would he have a betentacled aberration that eats brains first, asks questions later on his payroll?

I'm still stuck on a dumb question. Why do you think any of the monsters the order fought worked for Dorukan, and not for Xykon?

Some certainly did. Think of those guarding the seals, for instance. Celia made it clear that Xykon didn't scour and take over every last bit of secret space inside.

Because some of Dorukan's employees literally didn't know he was dead for months.

Also, that. Still, the more easily accessible corridors and rooms belonged to Xykon at that point, so most of what the Order met and fought was likley Xykon's entourage.

[arimareiji]

I don't think ESP specifically is a thing in this edition. Detect Thoughts might work at least?

Fair enough, I was too focused on not having seen a Potion of Detect Thoughts... but I don't think it's too much of a stretch that if the Giant is good with a potion effect as customized as (e.g.) "causes amnesia for the previous 4+1d4 days per dose", he'd also be good with "a spell effect not specifically listed by name at present, but used previously".

[Doug Lampert]

We don't know exactly how those devices work. Probably pretty short range, and likely from/to specific defined points built into the dungeon itself. It's one thing to hire someone to create something like that for you. It's another entirely to build a global network of such things.

I think the overwhelming favorite is permanent teleportation circle.

Teleportation circle is specifically on the permanency list, and is also specifically usable as a spell trap with the note in the spell that no one but a rogue can (edited) use search to spot the trap.

It's basically a perfect match for what we see.

Sure, it could be something else, but why?

Edited: You can't change the destination once you set up such a trap, but there's no range limit or chance of error.

[Breccia]

Hey why didn't the ball stick to the bat? It's tied in the ninth, this is a tense situation, the mimics should have been sweating glue! I demand that this comic strip about beholders playing baseball with puppets adhere to strict rules! (shakes fist)

[Ruck]

Sunny was literally the next encounter the Order was supposed to face in Dorukan's Dungeon after the intellectual property issue with the squiddy-faced brain-eater guy. Sunny worked for Dorukan.

This is an assumption on your part. Nothing in comic #32 indicates this. You seem to be assuming Sunny worked for Dorukan because Sunny was in Dorukan's dungeon. But nothing explicitly says that's so. And, in fact, the current comic explicitly contradicts it, and says that.

As Rich has said before:

But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?

It seems like many of your complaints stem from making assumptions that don't fit with the text, even when the text has explicitly contradicted those assumptions.

I think a lot of people are objecting to your speculation because they think (as do I) that it is not consistent with what we have seen, or requires an improbable interpretation of aspects of the comic (and in particular the latest strip). So most people (including me) are of the opinion that your speculation is not plausible.

Well said.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm thinking about how good Sunny must be at telekensis to hit a baseball.

I guess they have binocular (nonocular?) vision, but the window of time to hit a baseball is super tiny for any creature who's evolution didn't specialize in thrown stuff.

Sure. We only know for sure what was shown in comic panels. But it seems pretty absurd to assume that they just slept for three days. They were darted right here. Oh. I was wrong. ETA was two days, not three. Still seems absurd that she just kept them there for all that time, woke them up and talked with them for like 5 minutes, and then ran off to go ambush the Order, when she absolutely had time for dozens of similar length sessions and could have collected a ton of information from them.

I like the repeated amnesia hypothesis, but the biggest , most universal conceit of fiction is that interesting things happen one right after another.

Rich isn't going to show an hour of Serini stonewalling O-Chul, or eight hours of awkward silence.

Even just having a textbox saying "hours passed" wastes precious space and distracts the user if the passage of time isn't important or unusual.

I'm still stuck on a dumb question. Why do you think any of the monsters the order fought worked for Dorukan, and not for Xykon?

Xykon was shown leading the goblins and ogres before the dungeon in the prequel books.

He also raises the dead quite often and I suspect Dorukan was unwilling to raise the dead.

Trigak and the Linear Guild were specifically mentioned as discount mercenaries hired by Xykon.

That pretty much leaves the monsters in the earth, wind, and fire (Ba-dee-ya) vaults as Dorukan originals amongst those the order actually fought.

The monsters/people they didn't fight may have been from Dorukan are: the Ilithid, Fruit Pie the sorcerer, and the women in line for the bathroom.

[gbaji]

I think the overwhelming favorite is permanent teleportation circle.

Teleportation circle is specifically on the permanency list, and is also specifically usable as a spell trap with the note in the spell that no one but a rogue can (edited) use search to spot the trap.

It's basically a perfect match for what we see.

Sure, it could be something else, but why?

Edited: You can't change the destination once you set up such a trap, but there's no range limit or chance of error.

I think it's a variation of teleportation circle, but I actually have a pet theory that the effect is reversed (yeah, this is me totally speculating here). The concept that the trap teleports by default and must be disabled to get into the "real location" does seem the most obvious, but panels 8, 9, and 10 make me pause a bit. Notice the floor coloration. It's the same on both sides of the trap prior to it being deactivated, but changes color once Haley turns it off. That has always bugged me.

We also know that there is some sort of illusion that allows one to see what appears on the other side of the circle by default. But it's only once Haley "disables" the trap that they can see the different floor colors. Also, only once the trap is disabled and one is on the other side "backstage", can they see what's "really there". They can see back to the entrance, but team evil can't see them. That's a bit strange and bugs me.

What if the teleportation circle is set up the other way around? By default it does nothing, but if you notice it and "deactivate" the trap, you are actually activating it. So Haley actually turned on the teleportation effect, and illusion, so now they can see that the floor on the other side does not match what's near the door (which is what one might expect if teleporting from one set of stone floors to another, but *not* what one would expect if simply walking down a regular stone passageway). Once through, the trap "resets" (actually deactivates), but since they are on the other side now, it's presumably "active" all the time (these also appear to be two way teleportation circles, so we're a bit off the normal scheme anyway). That could explain why they can continue to see the door and entrance (they're seeing through the active teleportation circle/whatever, while the other side cannot.

Dunno. Doesn't explain the hallways and squeezing the dungeons into such tight spaces while the normal explanation does, so I'm on the fence with this. We'd have to further speculate some other effect going on with the stone of the dungeon itself (interdimensional stone maybe), such that each doesn't physically interfere with the others. But honestly, that's the point at which it does pretty much fall into "this is getting more complicated than it's worth" territory.

But yeah. That stone color change still bugs me. It's so obviously deliberately drawn that way, so there must be some relevance to it. But it counters what one would assume would be the operation and visible effects of our hypothetical two way teleportation circles (ish). Same deal with the layout of backstage too. I'm hesitant to suggest it might have just been an art mistake (Rich meant to draw the color difference prior to the disabling of the trap, but got it backwards?), but that would actually be the most direct explanation. Still. Serini has stated that backstage isn't all there is to this place (er, but didn't contradict their assumptions that the teleportation circles moved folks to different dungeons either), so maybe there's more we don't know that will explain this.

BTW. This is what "wild speculation" looks like.

[Doug Lampert]

I think it's a variation of teleportation circle, but I actually have a pet theory that the effect is reversed (yeah, this is me totally speculating here). The concept that the trap teleports by default and must be disabled to get into the "real location" does seem the most obvious, but panels 8, 9, and 10 make me pause a bit. Notice the floor coloration. It's the same on both sides of the trap prior to it being deactivated, but changes color once Haley turns it off. That has always bugged me.

We also know that there is some sort of illusion that allows one to see what appears on the other side of the circle by default. But it's only once Haley "disables" the trap that they can see the different floor colors. Also, only once the trap is disabled and one is on the other side "backstage", can they see what's "really there". They can see back to the entrance, but team evil can't see them. That's a bit strange and bugs me.

What if the teleportation circle is set up the other way around? By default it does nothing, but if you notice it and "deactivate" the trap, you are actually activating it. So Haley actually turned on the teleportation effect, and illusion, so now they can see that the floor on the other side does not match what's near the door (which is what one might expect if teleporting from one set of stone floors to another, but *not* what one would expect if simply walking down a regular stone passageway). Once through, the trap "resets" (actually deactivates), but since they are on the other side now, it's presumably "active" all the time (these also appear to be two way teleportation circles, so we're a bit off the normal scheme anyway). That could explain why they can continue to see the door and entrance (they're seeing through the active teleportation circle/whatever, while the other side cannot.

Dunno. Doesn't explain the hallways and squeezing the dungeons into such tight spaces while the normal explanation does, so I'm on the fence with this. We'd have to further speculate some other effect going on with the stone of the dungeon itself (interdimensional stone maybe), such that each doesn't physically interfere with the others. But honestly, that's the point at which it does pretty much fall into "this is getting more complicated than it's worth" territory.

But yeah. That stone color change still bugs me. It's so obviously deliberately drawn that way, so there must be some relevance to it. But it counters what one would assume would be the operation and visible effects of our hypothetical two way teleportation circles (ish). Same deal with the layout of backstage too. I'm hesitant to suggest it might have just been an art mistake (Rich meant to draw the color difference prior to the disabling of the trap, but got it backwards?), but that would actually be the most direct explanation. Still. Serini has stated that backstage isn't all there is to this place (er, but didn't contradict their assumptions that the teleportation circles moved folks to different dungeons either), so maybe there's more we don't know that will explain this.

BTW. This is what "wild speculation" looks like.

To my mind the variation from standard is that it teleports light too so you automatically see the other side when it is "on". Otherwise, if Team Evil ever didn't all cross the trap at the same time (and there are four of them, and they spread out) then the guys at the back would see the guys at the front blink out and then reapear if and only if the guys behind followed.

The whole trap would be REALLY REALLY OBVIOUS if it teleports people but not the view, and it doesn't matter what colors the stone is, it would still be really really obvious unless the teleportation trap is like walking down a corridor, including seeing what's in front of you on the other side of the trap.

Doylist: The stone color is for our benefit, so we'll know that there are two different corridors.
Watsonian: The stone right next to the entrance has been changed in color to match where the actual dungeon is, so that the spot to search for traps won't be totally obvious.

The alternative still requires that the trap teleport the view, since when the Order disables it the view changes and they can see each other during the crossing. And it ALSO requires that the trap is inactive until a high level rogue deactivates it, which is actually what activates it. Gosh, can I make OTHER traps that only go off when successfully deactivated by a high level rogue?

So either way we need a teleporting view, but the first way ONLY requires a teleporting view. The second requires teleporting the view, AND that the trap is normally inactive, AND an explanation for how all the dungeons fit, AND a trap that turns on when deactivated and is then undetectable by a high level rogue.

I'll go with the first, Teleportation Circle in Rich's world either teleports the view, or this is a custom variant that teleports the view.

[gbaji]

Oh yeah. I fully admit that it's a stretch. But there are still some oddities going on.

When Roy sticks his head through we see a short end to a passage there. But we also see Blackwing behind him. So both "sides" of the portal in backstage are showing us the view of the "real" hallway, but not transporting anything (at least that we know of). But when viewed from inside, the floor stones are more greenish in color "where the door is", but are also the same greenish color in the small end passageway as well (floor matches both sides looking backwards towards Blackwing).

Is it possible that there are actually two teleportation effects going on here? The openings have greenish floors, and the teleportation circle takes them to another hallway with greenish floors (and a very short dead end on that is "really" behind them, which is where Roy is poking his head into). When "disabled", the teleportation circle/whatever still operates, but now takes you to backstage, which has a more yellowish floor. Once reactivated, the circles in backstage show you the entryway from one direction, but actually teleports you back to the dead end portion (which is maybe the "real" backside of the dungeon team evil entered). They're connected to that backside now, not the entrance (but you see the entrance in one direction, and the dungeon hallway from another).

The first circle, if not disabled, shows you the entranceway on one side, and the dungeon it's going to teleport you to on the other, so it appears to be a perfectly natural entrance to a dungeon (ignoring the whole "doors are too close" bit, of course).

Dunno. I'm just having a hard time not seeing that they are also teleporting somewhere when they go to the backstage area. And it also still leaves one more nagging issue: How does one get to the actual backside of the yellow corridors in backstage? The circles do appear to be directional to some extent, so perhaps there is some method there to use them to get there. Although to be honest, if I were setting this up, the backside of those yellow hallways would *also* just be dead ends (no reason for them to go anywhere really). It would be too obvious, if someone found the switch overs in the first place, to have one of them lead somewhere else just by disabling it from the other side, for example. That would be the first thing someone would mess around with, just to see what would happen.

I'd hide it somewhere else, where the runes of the enchantment could be totally hidden. If we're assuming some level of illusion or view redirection that is undetectable by magic vision spells, then the passage to the gate could be more or less anywhere in the complex and hidden in a way that would be pretty impossible to find if you didn't already know to look there.

Um. But to wrap this back to the original point, I don't think the fact that Serini apparently hired someone to create these things for her actually points at all to her also having a global network of such things. These seem to have been special made for this specific location, perhaps even taking advantage of some magical properties of the stone itself to aid in the enchantment (since the whole thing does seem to be more than just a standard teleportation circle). They're almost more like some sort of space warp thing to me the way they work, bending locations so that they actually seem to physically touch, making everything otherwise look natural. Again. Just trying to wrap my head around how someone could manage to make what would have to be hundreds of these things. If this kind of magic was so readily available (and permanent), why would anyone in Stick World use flying blimps to move cargo around? Sure. 9th level spells. But if she could get someone to do this, are we saying that in the entire history of the world, no one thought "hey. I could make a killing just setting a handful of these up between locations at cities around the world and charge a nominal fee to use them".

The world builder in me says that this isn't something you could set up so easily just anywhere and there must be something specific at this location that makes it more feasible.

[Liquor Box]

I like the repeated amnesia hypothesis, but the biggest , most universal conceit of fiction is that interesting things happen one right after another.

I don't like the repeated amnesia idea for two reasons.

First, it seemed that she was still finishing the brewing of the potion in 1225 when the paladins first woke up. Her comment about not brewing a whole cauldren just for them suggests that they had not already polished off a cauldren prior.

Second, she does not seem to be probing for information on this occasion.

[brian 333]

I've considered the idea that the actual dungeons are all over the world. That would allow their inhabitants to forage, farm, whatever, without having to rely upon what is available in the North.

[Peelee]

I don't like the repeated amnesia idea for two reasons.

First, it seemed that she was still finishing the brewing of the potion in 1225 when the paladins first woke up. Her comment about not brewing a whole cauldren just for them suggests that they had not already polished off a cauldren prior.

Second, she does not seem to be probing for information on this occasion.

The first point is fairly strong. The only rebuttal I can think of is that she had already used up a first batch doing it repeatedly and is brewing a second batch for the paladins and the Order, but this has some holes in it - most notably that if she was done with the paladins, she could have already made 'em forget and cut them loose. Unless she wanted to do all the people at once.

The second point, however, is very weak. Just because she's not doing them at that point doesn't mean she didn't do it before.

[mashlagoo1982]

Are there rules for what would happen when something travels through the physical back side of a teleport circle? Not the front of the destination location, but the back side of either the destination or point of origin.

[Peelee]

Are there rules for what would happen when something travels through the physical back side of a teleport circle? Not the front of the destination location, but the back side of either the destination or point of origin.

By RAW Teleportation circles are on horizontal surfaces, so there is no "back side". I rather like the idea of them also being able to be cast in small corridors to create the effect we see in the comic.

[mashlagoo1982]

By RAW Teleportation circles are on horizontal surfaces, so there is no "back side". I rather like the idea of them also being able to be cast in small corridors to create the effect we see in the comic.

Does that mean by RAW the effect we are seeing cannot be a permeant Teleport Circle? For it to be so, when disabled there should have been a wall instead of a corridor?

I know the Giant doesn't follow RAW for everything.

[Peelee]

Does that mean by RAW the effect we are seeing cannot be a permeant Teleport Circle?

Yes.

For it to be so, when disabled there should have been a wall instead of a corridor?

No. Walls are not horizontal surfaces.

I know the Giant doesn't follow RAW for everything.

Yes.

[mashlagoo1982]

No. Walls are not horizontal surfaces.

I was more thinking that if a teleport circle could be placed in a vertical orientation, it will still require at least a solid surface.

So for this effect to be occurring, RAW would need to be violated in two ways (orientation and requirement of surface).

Is there any teleport effect that allows for a back side?

[Peelee]

I was more thinking that if a teleport circle could be placed in a vertical orientation, it will still require at least a solid surface.

So for this effect to be occurring, RAW would need to be violated in two ways (orientation and requirement of surface).

Is there any teleport effect that allows for a back side?

No. Teleportation effects teleport, the never have a "barrier" like a portal system. Even teleportation circles are just teleport effects that take place once you step on a specific surface. There is no "side" to a teleportation circle.

Homebrewing a teleportation circle to have the radius be an enclosed surface (eg walls ceiling and floor) would likely have the system either work out exactly as we see in the comic, or exactly as we see in the comic except linen of sight shows the true corridor (eg if there were a red corridor and a blue corridor, youd see a pure red corridor until you stepped through it and were teleported to the blue corridor)

[mashlagoo1982]

No. Teleportation effects teleport, the never have a "barrier" like a portal system. Even teleportation circles are just teleport effects that take place once you step on a specific surface. There is no "side" to a teleportation circle.

Homebrewing a teleportation circle to have the radius be an enclosed surface (eg walls ceiling and floor) would likely have the system either work out exactly as we see in the comic, or exactly as we see in the comic except linen of sight shows the true corridor (eg if there were a red corridor and a blue corridor, youd see a pure red corridor until you stepped through it and were teleported to the blue corridor)

Thanks for the clarification. It seems the effect I am thinking of is closer to a portal, but even that would not work according to RAW.

What I am thinking of can easily be explained with two coins and using the front and back sides to explain why certain scenes are being viewed. It seems such an effect doesn't exist within the Dnd system though.