Sorceror archetypes without 10 extra spells

[Boci]

So let's cut to the chase. Sorcerer's spells known has long been a mechanical* limitation of the class, and I haven't been keeping up with all knew releases, but I know there are 2 archetypes that grant 10 bonus spells, and lunar sorcerer technically kind gives 15, but only 5 at once. This is a pretty substantial bonus, comparing to 0 (wildmagic, phoenix, storm), 1 (dragon (effectivly mage armour+), shadow, divine), or at most 3 (giant). Its hard to quantify this impact easily, you could look at 15 spells a sorcerer gains over their full level career, but that bonus spells cap out at 5, (related: its also a simplification that divine only gives 1 bonus spell, since it also broadens the spell list available past 5 level spells, though give any more known here). On the other hand, this assumes the game will last 20th level, most do not. If the game ends at 12 then the bonus spell known from aberrant or clockwork soul is an even bigger boost.

So, are the other abilities granted by the two 10 bonus spell archetype (and lunar souled too) significantly weaker than others to compensate for? It doesn't feel like it, they seem pretty good. Equal at least, if not better. Power creep os nothing unique to the sorcerer class, but better features AND +10 bonus spells seems out of line with what other classes get. Maybe sorcerer needed this, but the problem then is two rather niche identities of a sorcerer get to enjoy this new, better standard, whilst classic concept like dragon and wild are stuck with a rather weak (in comparison) baseline.

Now I'm not saying this ruins them. One of my favoured characters is a phoenix souled sorcerer, I don't need them to be powerful to enjoy them. A restricted spell list can contribute to character identity, But at the same time I feel like it would be nice if top tier options weren't so limited. So if you wanted to bring older archetypes in line with aberrant and clockwork soul, do you think some changes are in order, or do they already compare well enough? If older archetypes fall short, how many bonus spells should they get? The full 10, split it 50/50 and give them 5? Or for bonus points, what abilities would you give them that weren't bonus spells to bring them in line with the newer, higher standard?

[Psyren]

Lunar gives 15 all the time actually. What swapping phase does is change which schools you can apply the metamagic discount to and which free daily 1st level spell you can use.

This might seem extra powerful, but keep in mind that unlike Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul, you cant swap any of these 15 out, and they're a decidedly mixed bag - some standouts, some jank, and mostly average.

[Leon]

Not played one in this Ed but whether it gets bonus spells or not isn't really a deciding factor when Im making a character idea, the overall class/subclass theme is what matters. Have played with a Wild Mage however and they never had any issues with the limited selection they had (or if they did they never said anything to the rest of us about it)

[animorte]

Not played one in this Ed but whether it gets bonus spells or not isn't really a deciding factor when Im making a character idea, the overall class/subclass theme is what matters.

Myself as well. I realize that additional spells are a strong factor for some, especially considering optimization (or meta-gamers), but it’s almost never been a deciding factor for my determining subclass, unless there are different spell lists to choose from (Genie Warlock).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I played a Red Dragon sorc and never really felt underpowered to level 11, but I suppose if we played that campaign longer I might have liked a bit more variety. I was of the opinion then, and still am now, that the number of Metamagics was more of an issue, and to a lesser extent sorcery points. Those are what make you unique and allow you to alter a spell in ways others can't. I never really liked the 'fix' of the newer subclasses, but the feat tax of metamagic adept came closer to the mark.

[Boci]

Lunar gives 15 all the time actually. What swapping phase does is change which schools you can apply the metamagic discount to and which free daily 1st level spell you can use.

This might seem extra powerful, but keep in mind that unlike Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul, you cant swap any of these 15 out, and they're a decidedly mixed bag - some standouts, some jank, and mostly average.

Ah okay. Eh, 10 good spells, 15 mixed back, call it even.

Not played one in this Ed but whether it gets bonus spells or not isn't really a deciding factor when Im making a character idea, the overall class/subclass theme is what matters. Have played with a Wild Mage however and they never had any issues with the limited selection they had (or if they did they never said anything to the rest of us about it)

I played a Red Dragon sorc and never really felt underpowered to level 11, but I suppose if we played that campaign longer I might have liked a bit more variety.

My experience with this was DMing for a sorceror level 6-9 or 10. I don't know if they felt underpowered, but they definitely felt frustrated with the limited spell selection. There were some cool options they wanted to use that they just didn't feel they could take because they were too situational, like calm emotion of hold person. Even polymorph they weren't entirely comfortable taking, though they did in the end, since its completely negated by a successful save, and shapechangers just flat out ignore it.

As for my pheonix sorceror, I really like her, but yeah, she is limited. And that can be an important aspect of a character, like here, I enjoy the fact that she would struggle against a fire immune opponent. But that's not going to aid every character concept. And you can play a sorceror with bonus spells, it just has to be a niche concept. Want to play a clockwork sorceror, a basically entirely new take on the class's identity with little to know fantasy to draw from? Here 50% bonus spells known allowance. Want to play a draconic sorcerer, the iconic identity of the class? Sorry, take 1 and be happy.

I was of the opinion then, and still am now, that the number of Metamagics was more of an issue, and to a lesser extent sorcery points. Those are what make you unique and allow you to alter a spell in ways others can't. I never really liked the 'fix' of the newer subclasses, but the feat tax of metamagic adept came closer to the mark.

That's an interesting idea. Maybe old sorcerer archetpyes could be buffed by getting extra metamagics instead of spells known?

[yisopo]

Maybe old sorcerer archetpyes could be buffed by getting extra metamagics instead of spells known?

This. :-)

[Segev]

I've said it before, but the big problem with the sorcerer in execution is that the metamagics just don't do enough to let them be the "master of their limited number of spells." Metamagics are ultimately generic and shallow. Somewhat for balance purposes, and a lot for ease-of-use purposes.

The bonus spell lists do a lot to recapture the flavor that the sharply limited list was meant to, I think: the "fire sorcerer" now has a bunch of fire spells, the "alienist sorcerer" now has the eldritch and mind-whammy spells to represent his far realms exposure/bloodline, etc.

The shadow sorcerer has a step in the right direction with its first level feature: it can do something unique with the darkness spell. Sadly, warlocks still do it better, but it's something.

Metamagics should, I think, be more generous in their number, but assigned to particular spells the sorcerer knows. Maybe with more specialized metamagics to apply to narrower kinds of spells, or even in some cases specific to particular spells.

A very spell-specific one might be "Shapeshifting Master: When you cast polymorph on yourself, you may transform into giants and monstrosities as well as beasts. By spending 1 SP, you may also transform into fey, dragons, or aberrations. By spending 2 sp, you may also transform into celestials, fiends, and elementals. For 1 additional SP, you may expand your options when using this spell on other creatures, too." (This is something I threw together as I wrote it, so the balance may be way off, but the concept is hopefully clear in this example.)

By getting more metamagics but having to assign them to particular spells, you could give a LOT more out, and a sorcerer truly becomes a master of warping particular spells in particular ways.

The Aberrant Mind sorcerer already sort-of does this with the sixth level feature Psionic Spells: it applies Subtle to all the spells in the subclass-granted list, just without saying it does, and only under certain circumstances (that are, admittedly, more cost-effective than normal).

[Pooky the Imp]

Thus far, I've only played a Shadow Sorcerer and I have to say that the limited spell selection really killed the experience for me.

I was constantly having to choose between thematic/flavourful spells and ones which were more universally useful. I've been able to do this just fine with other casters but my sorcerer had absolutely no leeway and any miscalculation made for a decidedly miserable experience in combat.

Then I look at the new sorcerers with their swathes of bonus spells, and I can only sigh at what might have been.

Even if not all the bonus spells are useful, having some extra ones like Mind Sliver, Dissonant Whispers, Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration etc. is already a huge bonus. If they're thematic, then I can spend my regular allowance on more universally useful ones. If they're useful, then I can spend my regular allowance on more thematic ones. And if they're both useful *and* thematic, then I might even be able to spend a slot or two on something more esoteric.

Put simply, I would never play a normal (i.e. no extra spells) sorcerer again. None of the bonuses they offer even come close to making up that shortfall.


EDIT:

Metamagics should, I think, be more generous in their number, but assigned to particular spells the sorcerer knows. Maybe with more specialized metamagics to apply to narrower kinds of spells, or even in some cases specific to particular spells.

A very spell-specific one might be "Shapeshifting Master: When you cast polymorph on yourself, you may transform into giants and monstrosities as well as beasts. By spending 1 SP, you may also transform into fey, dragons, or aberrations. By spending 2 sp, you may also transform into celestials, fiends, and elementals. For 1 additional SP, you may expand your options when using this spell on other creatures, too." (This is something I threw together as I wrote it, so the balance may be way off, but the concept is hopefully clear in this example.)

I would agree with this, though frankly it makes me wonder whether sorcerers should really be normal casters in the first place. At the very least, the extremely rigid spells D&D uses seem antithetical to the nature of sorcerers.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it seems like we're clumsily combining spells and metamagic to create something that should really have been its own thing in the first place.

While by no means perfect, the Mystic seemed far closer to what the sorcerer should have been.

[Segev]

Thus far, I've only played a Shadow Sorcerer and I have to say that the limited spell selection really killed the experience for me.

I was constantly having to choose between thematic/flavourful spells and ones which were more universally useful. I've been able to do this just fine with other casters but my sorcerer had absolutely no leeway and any miscalculation made for a decidedly miserable experience in combat.

Then I look at the new sorcerers with their swathes of bonus spells, and I can only sigh at what might have been.

Even if not all the bonus spells are useful, having some extra ones like Mind Sliver, Dissonant Whispers, Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration etc. is already a huge bonus. If they're thematic, then I can spend my regular allowance on more universally useful ones. If they're useful, then I can spend my regular allowance on more thematic ones. And if they're both useful *and* thematic, then I might even be able to spend a slot or two on something more esoteric.

Put simply, I would never play a normal (i.e. no extra spells) sorcerer again. None of the bonuses they offer even come close to making up that shortfall.

Indeed, I believe the original design - with no bonus spells and only 15 spells known, total, ever - was exactly backwards from how they should have done it. I am sure their intent was, "By having only a limited number of spells, they'll have only the thematic ones, and have to cleverly use metamagic to show how skilled they are with their thematically-appropriate spells." But the practice of it is that this actively discourages thematic choices in favor of the most versatile and effective choices. Especially when metamagic is so general that it is most effective when used in conjunction with more versatile and generally-applicable spells.

5e sorcerers were poorly designed at the start. The subclasses that have thematic bonus spell lists are a big step in the right direction towards fixing their design.

[hiptobecubic]

I always felt like sorcerers needed more uniqueness to them. They really just feel like feral wizards, which is mostly worse than being a normal wizard. I agree with the sentiment that Mystic was a better take than "wizards, but stupid and emotional," which is how I feel today. Clockwork Soul makes it even more clear that it's a bad concept, because they don't even have the raw emotional feel.

Wild Magic as a class feature is not great for managing the game itself, but thematically i love it and wish the list of effects was several times larger than it is.

The sorc spell list probably should have been almost entirely unique to the class, given that these spells sprouted naturally. It doesn't make sense to me that a dragon woman erupting with fire magic casts spells that you can also just learn from a book. Metamagic helps, but it's not enough. Maybe if spells (or characters) had additional randomized properties reflecting their own journey towards magical expertise? E.g. my shadow sorc mage hand emits darkness around it that i can't suppress, or when i sneak i can be silent, but i leave an easily trail of darkness along the path i walked, etc.

[Psyren]

I think one way to make Sorcerers unique, especially if 1DnD goes through with making them prepared casters:

1. Give them the fewest number of baseline preparations and slots. They should unlock new spell levels at the same times as they do now, but have the lowest base ammunition per day of the full casters.
   
2. Let their Origin Spells always count as prepared, so they can use their "floating" preparations for utility and other things.
   
3. Crank up their sorcery points - double or even triple what they have now.

Basically the expected play style would be for them to constantly be converting sorcerpy points into more slots (and rarely but still occasionally, vice-versa) to keep up with other full casters. But they'll also have the tension of wanting to use some of their points on metamagic and subclass features too.

They will shine in cases where a lot of preparation variety isn't needed, but their weakness will be less ability to adapt to complex circumstances or fill multiple casting roles.

[Luccan]

While I have long lamented the lack of spells known for Sorcerers, I think the reason it took so long to get real bonus spells in subclasses for them is because the design mostly worked. And as a result, you aren't likely to notice the difference in a campaign. Unless two players are playing sorcerers from the different ends of 5e.

[Jervis]

Hot take but the fact that sorcerers are known casters instead of prep casters is enough of a limiter. If anything they should have strictly more spells at their disposal than wizards since they can’t change them as often

[Psyren]

While I have long lamented the lack of spells known for Sorcerers, I think the reason it took so long to get real bonus spells in subclasses for them is because the design mostly worked. And as a result, you aren't likely to notice the difference in a campaign. Unless two players are playing sorcerers from the different ends of 5e.

I don't think we can conclude anything based on how long it took them to print sorcerers with more spells. Look how long we were stuck with PHB Ranger.

Hot take but the fact that sorcerers are known casters instead of prep casters is enough of a limiter. If anything they should have strictly more spells at their disposal than wizards since they can’t change them as often

They're getting rid of known casters in 1DD, it necessitates too much build planning when you're locked into one small set of spells for multiple sessions.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I've said it before, but the big problem with the sorcerer in execution is that the metamagics just don't do enough to let them be the "master of their limited number of spells." Metamagics are ultimately generic and shallow. Somewhat for balance purposes, and a lot for ease-of-use purposes.

The bonus spell lists do a lot to recapture the flavor that the sharply limited list was meant to, I think: the "fire sorcerer" now has a bunch of fire spells, the "alienist sorcerer" now has the eldritch and mind-whammy spells to represent his far realms exposure/bloodline, etc.

The shadow sorcerer has a step in the right direction with its first level feature: it can do something unique with the darkness spell. Sadly, warlocks still do it better, but it's something.

Metamagics should, I think, be more generous in their number, but assigned to particular spells the sorcerer knows. Maybe with more specialized metamagics to apply to narrower kinds of spells, or even in some cases specific to particular spells.

A very spell-specific one might be "Shapeshifting Master: When you cast polymorph on yourself, you may transform into giants and monstrosities as well as beasts. By spending 1 SP, you may also transform into fey, dragons, or aberrations. By spending 2 sp, you may also transform into celestials, fiends, and elementals. For 1 additional SP, you may expand your options when using this spell on other creatures, too." (This is something I threw together as I wrote it, so the balance may be way off, but the concept is hopefully clear in this example.)

By getting more metamagics but having to assign them to particular spells, you could give a LOT more out, and a sorcerer truly becomes a master of warping particular spells in particular ways.

The Aberrant Mind sorcerer already sort-of does this with the sixth level feature Psionic Spells: it applies Subtle to all the spells in the subclass-granted list, just without saying it does, and only under certain circumstances (that are, admittedly, more cost-effective than normal).

This is more or less what I was trying to get at in my first post with more detail. Metamagic has so much potential to broaden the application of many spells that goes unrealized because you're so pigeon holed by the number of Metamagics and, to a lesser extent, the number of Sorcery Points. Does the feat tax of Metamagic Adept help? I haven't seen a sorc played since this was an option, but I'd imagine it does. I had quicken and empower to be a better blaster, so when I got Polymorph it was the same as a Wizard's Polymorph. If I'd had Twin as well, that's a big jump in power and to a different play style.

Given this, if I had to give the older subclasses a bump I'd probably use Aberrant Mind, which effectively gets Subtle, as the model. I'd give Dragon empower.... and so forth.

[Jervis]

They're getting rid of known casters in 1DD, it necessitates too much build planning when you're locked into one small set of spells for multiple sessions.

They’re likely getting rid of them but i’m reserving celebration for when we see the arcane caster UA. I like the change of it does happen but sorcerers have a long history of getting the short end of the stick.

[Kane0]

So if you wanted to bring older archetypes in line with aberrant and clockwork soul, do you think some changes are in order, or do they already compare well enough? If older archetypes fall short, how many bonus spells should they get? The full 10, split it 50/50 and give them 5? Or for bonus points, what abilities would you give them that weren't bonus spells to bring them in line with the newer, higher standard?

I'd go with 5 for each subclass, old ones getting one per spell level 1-5 and new ones losing one per spell level 1-5 so they're equalized.

[Pooky the Imp]

This is more or less what I was trying to get at in my first post with more detail. Metamagic has so much potential to broaden the application of many spells that goes unrealized because you're so pigeon holed by the number of Metamagics and, to a lesser extent, the number of Sorcery Points. Does the feat tax of Metamagic Adept help? I haven't seen a sorc played since this was an option, but I'd imagine it does. I had quicken and empower to be a better blaster, so when I got Polymorph it was the same as a Wizard's Polymorph. If I'd had Twin as well, that's a big jump in power and to a different play style.

Given this, if I had to give the older subclasses a bump I'd probably use Aberrant Mind, which effectively gets Subtle, as the model. I'd give Dragon empower.... and so forth.

Regarding metamagic, I think the main issue is that it really doesn't broaden the application of most spells.

Take Fireball, for example. You can mess around with a few bits of it (e.g. improving the range, increasing the DC etc.). However, you can't change how it actually works - it's always going to be a 20ft detonation.

Imagine for a moment if metamagic let you play with a spell's area (turning it into a line, a cone, maybe even a single-target attack etc.). Suddenly, a fire sorcerer can have a great deal of flexibility with just one or two fire spells.

Obviously this gets a good deal more complicated, as there are many different types of spell (which would need to be altered in different ways to achieve the same flexibility), but that's why I think sorcerer needs to be its own thing with its own, distinct spells.

[Emongnome777]

I have a draconic (gold) sorcerer in my ToD campaign, now 6th level. He took Metamagic Adept at 4th and he has a bloodwell vial (can gain back 5 SP during a short rest once per day). That effectively 13 SP for a day with at least one short rest plus two more metamagics to pick from.

He uses his SPs quite a bit, even exchanging spell slots for more points. I've also granted 2 bonus spells per level to match Tasha's subclasses. Each level is one spell related to the dragon damage type and one "generic" dragon(ish) spell. So first level is cause fear and burning hands, etc. Due to the magic item and the bonus spells, he's stronger than normal for a sorcerer (which I wanted as I do feel like sorcerers are a little weak).

He's told me he's loving playing his sorcerer with getting to do all his metamagic tricks frequently. I can see the fewer spells known and limited SPs / metamagic choices being a fun killer like others are suggesting. He's no stronger than the rest of the party (eldritch knight fighter, outlander dragon rider (3rd party), and a hexblade warlock, all single-classed).

Just my experience with it, though skewed since he has more of everything than most other sorcerers. I'd say you can give sorcerers more spells known, more metamagic choices and more SPs and they won't break the game, IMHO.

[hiptobecubic]

Hot take but the fact that sorcerers are known casters instead of prep casters is enough of a limiter. If anything they should have strictly more spells at their disposal than wizards since they can’t change them as often

They’re likely getting rid of them but i’m reserving celebration for when we see the arcane caster UA. I like the change of it does happen but sorcerers have a long history of getting the short end of the stick.

If they do this I'd like to see a good explanation for why it makes sense beyond just the metagaming of "it makes sorcs more versatile." To me, spells known vs prepared is about how cast them. Artificers need to do prep work and maintenance on their tools to use them to cast spells. Wizards need to study up on nuances they have forgotten or whatever. Sorcerers just squeeze it out of their soul, but have fewer options in the first place. I could see a longer duration maybe? Or some other mechanic like having practiced spells vs unpracticed spells, though.

[Slipjig]

Yeah... we'll see what the new template looks like, but I kind of like the "limited powerset" thing. If you allow then to swap spells freely, their class identity bleeds pretty heavily into Wizards.

I'd also like to see Wizards get a much more restricted spell list. I'm fine with it if they have the most spells, but I feel that Bards, Artificers, and to a lesser extent Sorcs should have at least a few spells that are unique to them.

[sambojin]

For an easy fix to it, just give all normal sorcerers 2 floating sorc spells prepared (up to the highest level of spell they could cast) per long rest, and 3 floating ones at lvl10+.

It lets you vary up your loadout a bit each day, and you can specifically slot spells in and out to match your metamagics or for different tasks and tools.

We tried it at our table and it worked great. It's not as many spells as a clockwork or aberrant, but the flexibility more than makes up for it. You don't feel limited at all, and you can really flavour your sorc to how you imagine them to be (while still upscaling pretty well as you increase in levels).

It's not OP, and feels really balanced in actual use. Plus, it's easy, and let's you try stuff out if you want.

[TaiLiu]

Having played a Wild Magic Sorcerer for a while, I think not having those 10 extra spells is fine. Obviously having a few more spells would be nice, but it doesn't feel horribly restrictive, and the ability to wild surge partly makes for those missing spells.

[Witty Username]

While I have long lamented the lack of spells known for Sorcerers, I think the reason it took so long to get real bonus spells in subclasses for them is because the design mostly worked. And as a result, you aren't likely to notice the difference in a campaign. Unless two players are playing sorcerers from the different ends of 5e.

There is some truth to that, an experienced caster player could make sorcerer without much issue. The additional spells known mostly make them more new player friendly.

[Boci]

So we've got some interesting ideas about how to balance sorcerors.

We have the quick and dirty fix of 5-10 extra spells for all. Maybe 5 and also cut clock work and ab, but I don't think nerfing the existing ones is necessary, they aren't OP, and they seem fun, and people who prefer prior archetypes get some bonus spells, everyone is happy.

We have an interesting idea to give them almost eldritch invocation like abilities to modifier a spell in a special, unique way. I do like this, but the work and effort involved is not inconsiderable, plus there extra options for the player then piloting it. Probably 1 spell from each level, so 9 in total (assuming they never trade away the lower level custome spells) across all 20 levels should be fine. It can make it hard to design a character, since a DM can't show this in advance for every spell, but its pure bonus so players should be happy.

Alternatively we can lean into metamagic angle, let me try and suggest something on the more "radical" side and we can work out way back from there:

"Metamagic: Sorcerers gain all metamagic options listed. Whenever they cast a spell through sorcery points (alternatively maybe limit this to only the spells provided by the archetype if we combine this with the first option) they may add X metamagic effect for free."

X metamagic would of course depend on the archetype. Someone mentioned empower for draconic, maybe extend for clockwork, ect ect.

There is some truth to that, an experienced caster player could make sorcerer without much issue. The additional spells known mostly make them more new player friendly.

Worth noting that whilst true, an experienced will only be able to make an effective character by severly limiting the effective spells. Even experienced players will still need to pass up on some of the more flavour-ful / niche spells if they want to make their sorceror perform without issue.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Regarding metamagic, I think the main issue is that it really doesn't broaden the application of most spells.

Take Fireball, for example. You can mess around with a few bits of it (e.g. improving the range, increasing the DC etc.). However, you can't change how it actually works - it's always going to be a 20ft detonation.

Imagine for a moment if metamagic let you play with a spell's area (turning it into a line, a cone, maybe even a single-target attack etc.). Suddenly, a fire sorcerer can have a great deal of flexibility with just one or two fire spells.

Obviously this gets a good deal more complicated, as there are many different types of spell (which would need to be altered in different ways to achieve the same flexibility), but that's why I think sorcerer needs to be its own thing with its own, distinct spells.

I'm not sure the argument that because AOE adjustment isn't a Metamagic option sorcerers don't have options to broaden the application of most spells. I do know there is some interpretation that cone spells can have their AOEs adjusted by Distant spell, but that's contentious, so let's get back to your Fireball example. Fireball is a good spell to look at, as it's already a very good spell that blaster types are going to take.

You can use:
Careful: not quite as good as the signature Evoker ability for fireball, but still worth it at times and applies to more spells
Distant: get more range
Empowered: a go to option that can be combined with other metamagic options and things like extra Dragon Sorc damage.
Heightened: give disadvantage
Quickened: cast as a BA, allowing you many options as an Action. If this doesn't provide flexibility I don't know what does.
Subtle: Debatable as there's an obvious effect once the spell is underway, but some DM's would rule no Counterspelling here.
Transmuted: This is massive in determining 'flexibility' and 'changing how a spell works'. Pick a damage type to avoid resistance/ immunity or target vulnerability.

I don't think the 6-7 options to alter spells is limiting. Rather, limited access to those abilities through # of Metamagics known, # of SPs known, and lack of ability to combine Metamagics are the limiting factors. Could you homebrew a Metamagic to mess with AOE? Sure, and it would provide another option for Sorcerers, but assuming it was balanced with other options, I'm unsure of how this fundamentally provides more flexibility than many of the current choices.

[strangebloke]

The problem with the sorcerer isn't that its weak, or that the older archetypes were boring...

The problem is that because they had a huge, fantastic spell list, but could only take a small number of those spells, they were incredibly constrained and ended up being relatively samey when compared with other casters.

You take mage armor, you take shield, you take absorb elements, you take counterspell.... and next thing you know you've used over half of your spells known.

and with many of the metamagic options being incredibly niche in utility, or not viable until high level, there's even more pressure to play in a certain way. You're really pushed toward twin spell and single target concentration spells like polymorph or banishment. Even the good metamagics only really work best with a few spells. The number of spells that subtle makes impossible to counterspell is smaller than most people think - subtle doesn't get rid of material components. Careful isn't good with a lot of AOE spells. It's good with hypnotic pattern, sure, but that's one spell. Extend spell is basically pointless outside of a few spells like aid and mage armor.

[Witty Username]

Yeah, the sorcerer spells known is a average 2 per spell level until level 11 where it starts dropping to about 1.5 per spell level.

That is very tight if you want to both be effective, and be on brand.

For reference, ranger gets 4 less total spells known than sorcerer by level 20.

People have been able to work with those restrictions, but like mentioned, it takes an experienced caster player to do that.
Or a Paladin multiclass...

[animorte]

The problem with the sorcerer isn't that its weak, or that the older archetypes were boring...

The problem is that because they had a huge, fantastic spell list, but could only take a small number of those spells, they were incredibly constrained and ended up being relatively samey when compared with other casters.

You take mage armor, you take shield, you take absorb elements, you take counterspell.... and next thing you know you've used over half of your spells known.

and with many of the metamagic options being incredibly niche in utility, or not viable until high level, there's even more pressure to play in a certain way. You're really pushed toward twin spell and single target concentration spells like polymorph or banishment. Even the good metamagics only really work best with a few spells. The number of spells that subtle makes impossible to counterspell is smaller than most people think - subtle doesn't get rid of material components. Careful isn't good with a lot of AOE spells. It's good with hypnotic pattern, sure, but that's one spell. Extend spell is basically pointless outside of a few spells like aid and mage armor.

Your thoughts on the Sorcerer are similar to my thoughts on just about every class, if we’re being honest.

Every single time somebody is talking about an optimal build on the forum, most typically end up going in the same direction unless the OP specifies different.

Most every <insert class> is expected to use <insert spells> or <insert feat> at the proper levels if you want to be optimal. The great thing about the game is that everybody usually has different goals and it’s not hard to be effective if you have the creativity and your DM has the foresight to at least attempt to be inclusive.

Yes, I know you can’t always rely on that, but if you can never rely on it, that’s an entirely different problem in itself that the game will never be able to solve. What I’m getting at here is that I know some people tend to approach their build paths with, “what is going to always be efficient no matter happens?” That’s fine, but it doesn’t ruin the class for other people.

I happen to really like playing a Sorcerer and I’ve played a few. They weren’t all limited to the same stuff because having fun is equally as important as being relevant (for some people, these two must always co-exist).