Aedilred's Athanasiac Random Banter #241

[Keltest]

Question:

A sapient organism is referred to as the "alpha" version of its species... But it does not appear to be older, hold a position of authority, be stronger or more powerful, or be larger than other members of its species.

Nor does the concept of "alpha male" apply, if there was any validity to such things, as the organism does not typically reproduce sexually. They do sometimes form pair bonds but typically only for companionship.

What would you assume "alpha" is referring to?

That it is older and just doesnt show its age? Because thats about the only interpretation youve allowed that isnt just misusing the word entirely.

[Qwertystop]

Designed species, individual is a surviving instance of an unfinished early version.

[DavidSh]

Question:

A sapient organism is referred to as the "alpha" version of its species... But it does not appear to be older, hold a position of authority, be stronger or more powerful, or be larger than other members of its species.

Nor does the concept of "alpha male" apply, if there was any validity to such things, as the organism does not typically reproduce sexually. They do sometimes form pair bonds but typically only for companionship.

What would you assume "alpha" is referring to?

That the organism is from an early version of its species, not even a version ready for release to testers, let alone a general release version. This would seem to contradict "does not appear to be older", but an instance of an alpha version could be created even after the general release, for unknown reasons.

[Lord Raziere]

What would you assume "alpha" is referring to?

The ignorance of the person calling it that.

[LaZodiac]

Question:

A sapient organism is referred to as the "alpha" version of its species... But it does not appear to be older, hold a position of authority, be stronger or more powerful, or be larger than other members of its species.

Nor does the concept of "alpha male" apply, if there was any validity to such things, as the organism does not typically reproduce sexually. They do sometimes form pair bonds but typically only for companionship.

What would you assume "alpha" is referring to?

The first of its kind, which does not necessarily evoke any actual importance or strength. Optional if they're an artificial species or not.

[Aedilred]

While I agree with what your are saying, I feel compelled to point out that Jean Valjean is the guy the who stole a loaf of bread to feed his starving nephews and nieces (one of whom was a baby) and spent almost two decades in prison because of that.

Five years for what he did, the rest because he tried to run. Yes, 24601.

You probably were thinking of Javert, although I doubt the notion of a hell ever mattered to the man.

Been a long time since I read it, but from what I remember Javert was deeply religious, to the point it was the foundation of his being and the reason he disintegrated when he couldn't fit Valjean into his worldview. This aspect of his character is just about visible in the musical, though not very overt, but downplayed or abandoned altogether in some adaptations (such as the TV version with Dominic West).

It's hard to get into that within the scope of forum rules, however.

[Fyraltari]

Been a long time since I read it, but from what I remember Javert was deeply religious, to the point it was the foundation of his being and the reason he disintegrated when he couldn't fit Valjean into his worldview. This aspect of his character is just about visible in the musical, though not very overt, but downplayed or abandoned altogether in some adaptations (such as the TV version with Dominic West).

It's hard to get into that within the scope of forum rules, however.

No, Javert's worldview is the result of him being the child of criminals (born in prison even) meaning that pretty much everyone assumed he would turn to crime too, since it was "in his blood" (it's also hinted at that he's at least half Romani) and overcorrecting.

Valjean is the one coming at it from a religious perspective as a result of his encounter with the bishop.

[halfeye]

Is that a thing?

Why would that be a thing?

I don't remember where it was a thing (USA? EU?), or what the thing in question was, but there was somebody invented something in their spare time, and their work claimed it, because their bosses claimed they used their work skills in the production and they had a no-compete clause in their contract. This was at least ten years ago, maybe twenty, when no-compete clauses were new, and people probably look harder at no-compete clauses before signing contracts these days.

[theangelJean]

Question:

A sapient organism is referred to as the "alpha" version of its species... But it does not appear to be older, hold a position of authority, be stronger or more powerful, or be larger than other members of its species.

Nor does the concept of "alpha male" apply, if there was any validity to such things, as the organism does not typically reproduce sexually. They do sometimes form pair bonds but typically only for companionship.

What would you assume "alpha" is referring to?

The ignorance of the person calling it that.

This, except I would assume my own ignorance rather than that of those using the term.

"Alpha" is currently used to denote a prime position in some kind of hierarchy. Sapient organisms who don't typically reproduce sexually ... means a fictional species, right? You've ruled out a bunch of the hierarchies humans use to categorise ourselves, so if members of this species were using the term "alpha" as if it meant something, I would assume there was something else going on I wasn't privy to.

Either that or it's an entirely anthropocentric term, in which case it might be as simple as the order of first contact with humans. Which is basically the same as Lord Raziere's answer.

If you were talking about a non-sapient organism then there would be a small possibility you were talking about a non-fictional species. In which case "alpha" might denote the order of "discovery" by humans. Same thing.

[Fyraltari]

Question:

A sapient organism is referred to as the "alpha" version of its species... But it does not appear to be older, hold a position of authority, be stronger or more powerful, or be larger than other members of its species.

Nor does the concept of "alpha male" apply, if there was any validity to such things, as the organism does not typically reproduce sexually. They do sometimes form pair bonds but typically only for companionship.

What would you assume "alpha" is referring to?

Their name.
Edit: Or some other form of title, honorific or form of adress.

[Form]

Question:

A sapient organism is referred to as the "alpha" version of its species... But it does not appear to be older, hold a position of authority, be stronger or more powerful, or be larger than other members of its species.

Nor does the concept of "alpha male" apply, if there was any validity to such things, as the organism does not typically reproduce sexually. They do sometimes form pair bonds but typically only for companionship.

What would you assume "alpha" is referring to?

First individual or type of its species that has been encountered and placed in some kind of categorization system. It's the first one encountered, so it gets the first letter out of the box.

You could codify even more information in the serial number you assign to the creature depending on what you deem would be useful to know at a glance or for processing large batches of information of course, if you were so inclined.

[BisectedBrioche]

I'm also inclined towards "the first on some sort of list".

[Peelee]

Question:

A sapient organism is referred to as the "alpha" version of its species... But it does not appear to be older, hold a position of authority, be stronger or more powerful, or be larger than other members of its species.

Nor does the concept of "alpha male" apply, if there was any validity to such things, as the organism does not typically reproduce sexually. They do sometimes form pair bonds but typically only for companionship.

What would you assume "alpha" is referring to?

What's the context? What is this from? We can probably use that to better figure out the meaning.

[D&D_Fan]

Dominance hierarchies do exist, and the alpha is typically given to mean to most dominant for any reason. Birds have it, primates have it, canids have it, seals have it, fish have it, hyaenas have it, etc... Even insects have similar systems. Primates are more varied as a large group. Some species of primates have male dominant hierarchies, some have female dominant ones, some have a more egalitarian system entirely. I think dominance hierarchy is less psuedoscientific than some people think, but it's not well understood, and it isn't as absolute as some proponents say it is either.

Generally if you see some grindset crypto enthusiast gym rat talking about being a "sigma male" like John Wick. They don't understand how it works at all. And they never watched John Wick either. It's not an issue of pure strength, it's about working well with others too. Nobody likes a despot, not even in the animal kingdom. Animals can turn on each other and contest one another. A good alpha animal will be able to maintain cohesion of their pack. I think because of the social responsibility aspect, John Wick would actually be an "alpha" were humans to have such distinctions. Which we don't really have.

Human systems are just more complex than strength or looks, we have incorporated all sorts of other things like wealth, race, religion, nationality, education, experience, all of that is added into selection processes. It's just a much more advanced system, and you can't just replace it with a great ape or wolf pack system because it's "cooler"

[Rater202]

What's the context? What is this from? We can probably use that to better figure out the meaning.

I'm making another Jumpchain document.

For large settings, there can be documents covering specific aspects, and I'm doing one for the last few years worth of Marvel Comics focusing primarily but not exclusively on what's been going down with the X-Men.

I want to include a Scenario based on the recent Judgement Day Event, where the Progenitor, a Celestial that died on Earth 4 billion years ago while the planet was still molten and that's why all the weird stuff happens here, is brought back to life by the Eternals Makkari and Ajack in order to give the Eternals a new purpose.

...It proceeded to go as wrong as it possibly could.

When we were introduced to the concept of the Progenitor, Loki, when translating for other Celestials, refers to it as an "Alpha Celestial" but doens't really give any further context for what that means. It wasn't the Leader, or the Strongest, it wasn't noticeably larger than the others of the Celestial Host it was part of..., can't be the "Alpha Male" because the one time in the entire history of the species they've only reproduced sexually the one time, which was the product of an experiment and killed the "mother."

If I'm going to make such a scenario, I need to have a good idea of what the hell the Progenitor actually is. It might sound negotiable, but if a chain has gone on long enough the Jumper in question could well be on the level of a Celestial themselves so they'd have options that weren't available in the anon version of the story.

Figuring out what "Alpha Celestial" means is an importan step.

[Peelee]

When we were introduced to the concept of the Progenitor, Loki, when translating for other Celestials, refers to it as an "Alpha Celestial" but doens't really give any further context for what that means. It wasn't the Leader, or the Strongest, it wasn't noticeably larger than the others of the Celestial Host it was part of

Ok, so distilling the relevant part here, I'd say that being called both the Alpha Celestial and the Progenitor means it was the first. You said earlier there was no indication of it being older, but I'd imagine that being called "the progenitor" and "the alpha celestial" are indications that it's older. Or whatever word Marvel wants to use if they want to play weird time games. Doesn't matter. Simplifying to the point a child could understand, thats probably just the first celestial.

[Rater202]

Ok, so distilling the relevant part here, I'd say that being called both the Alpha Celestial and the Progenitor means it was the first. You said earlier there was no indication of it being older, but I'd imagine that being called "the progenitor" and "the alpha celestial" are indications that it's older. Or whatever word Marvel wants to use if they want to play weird time games. Doesn't matter. Simplifying to the point a child could understand, thats probably just the first celestial.

Oh, I knew I forgot something.

A Celestial's name or title refers to how it relates to mortals, not its position in the Celestial Hierarchy.

The Progenitor is called that because it's the ultimate source of life on Earth in the Marvel Universe. It died on Earth and its blood, bile, and vomit saturated the planet's molten mass, giving rise to the first simple organisms on the planet*.

All organisms on or born from the Earth carry a small touch of the Progentiro's cosmic power... But also a touch of the essence of the disease that killed it.

So it being "The Progenitor" is separate from it being an Alpha Celestial.

The actual progenitor of the Celestials is the First Firmament, also known as the First Cosmos, essentially a sentient universe. For context, the current iteration of the Multiverse is either the Seventh or the Eighth Cosmos depending on how you count.

[tyckspoon]

Ok, so distilling the relevant part here, I'd say that being called both the Alpha Celestial and the Progenitor means it was the first. You said earlier there was no indication of it being older, but I'd imagine that being called "the progenitor" and "the alpha celestial" are indications that it's older. Or whatever word Marvel wants to use if they want to play weird time games. Doesn't matter. Simplifying to the point a child could understand, thats probably just the first celestial.

Might be 'the first one we are aware of' or 'the first one that did something that interfered with events on Earth.' A cursory search doesn't indicate anything attaching further importance to the 'alpha' designation, so it may well just be a random word the writer threw in there to make it sound more important/mysterious than the current day crop of Celestials - the Progenitor doesn't really seem to be unusual among Celestials for anything other than the method of its death.

[Peelee]

Oh, I knew I forgot something.

A Celestial's name or title refers to how it relates to mortals, not its position in the Celestial Hierarchy.

The Progenitor is called that because it's the ultimate source of life on Earth in the Marvel Universe

Again, only relevant portions kept. Ok, so the mortals call it the progenitor and the celestial call it the alpha celestial. So, sounds like that's basically one and the same, and is just their title for the one that created life on Earth (and whatever else they did)

[Fyraltari]

Could it be arbitrary classification? "Alpha" doesn't have to denote seniority. Alpha radioactive decay isn't "prior" to the Beta and Gamma ones.

[Rater202]

Again, only relevant portions kept. Ok, so the mortals call it the progenitor and the celestial call it the alpha celestial. So, sounds like that's basically one and the same, and is just their title for the one that created life on Earth (and whatever else they did)

Creating life on planets is kind of the Celestial's thing, though. The only thing special about Earth is that it wasn't on purpose.

Also "an" alpha Celestial. When I first said "the alpha version of the species" I was referring to the state of being that, not trying to imply there was only the one.

[Peelee]

Creating life on planets is kind of the Celestial's thing, though. The only thing special about Earth is that it wasn't on purpose.

Also "an" alpha Celestial. When I first said "the alpha version of the species" I was referring to the state of being that, not trying to imply there was only the one.

Ok. So with a little quick and dirty research, I could be wrong here but it seems like the only time he's called Alpha Celestial is by Loki, and they never explain it and never revisit it. So until and unless they do, it doesn't really matter. You're doing a fanfic so it can be whatever you want or you could ignore it like they do. Dealers choice.

[halfeye]

Ok. So with a little quick and dirty research, I could be wrong here but it seems like the only time he's called Alpha Celestial is by Loki,

Which Loki is that? Isn't Loki often a liar?

[Peelee]

Which Loki is that? Isn't Loki often a liar?

In Marvel, I don't know, but even if he is that's the automatic answer and i assumed Rater was asking for "assuming aloki isn't lying."

[Rater202]

Which Loki is that? Isn't Loki often a liar?

Loki hasn't been outright evil for a while now and is more often than not a force for good as of late.

In this case, he was pretending to side with some Celestials who were driven insane by a mutant strain of the same disease that killed the Progenitor but was actually playing a long con that not only cured them, but got the Avengers to reform after having previously broken up.

[LaZodiac]

My personal pet theory on this, having read everyone's conversation, is that since Loki is translating it... whatever the actual word is, it's not ACTUALLY Alpha, it's just the most fitting name he could think of.

Progenitor means "creator" means "has created things, existed before those things", and in this universe it's a well known thing that Omega is a term ascribed to the end of all things, so the counterpart to the end of all things is the beginning of all things, so Alpha. I can see him going down that chain of thought. It's just not a wholly accurate translation. it's the Progenitor, roughly, in the Celestial language, because it is capable of progenitoring things, and Loki read that as a more direct Creator then just "someone who creates".

[Peelee]

Loki hasn't been outright evil for a while now and is more often than not a force for good as of late.

In this case, he was pretending to side with some Celestials who were driven insane by a mutant strain of the same disease that killed the Progenitor but was actually playing a long con that not only cured them, but got the Avengers to reform after having previously broken up.

Talking about being good or evil doesn't really address whether someone is a liar. I assume from context that he's probably not lying, but you didn't really touch on it.

[Rater202]

Talking about being good or evil doesn't really address whether someone is a liar. I assume from context that he's probably not lying, but you didn't really touch on it.

Sorry, brain slip.

The thing about being a God of Lies is that you have to be a good liar.

A good lia'rs lies are believable.

No one will believe your lies if all you ever do is lie.

Loki is the God of Lies because he tells the right lies a the right time for the right reason. Which in practice means he very rarely tells actual lies.

Which, incidentally, was his campaign platform that time he ran for president.

In general, he tends to go with fast-talking and omitting key facts rather than outright untruths.

[Metastachydium]

Question:

A sapient organism is referred to as the "alpha" version of its species... But it does not appear to be older, hold a position of authority, be stronger or more powerful, or be larger than other members of its species.

Nor does the concept of "alpha male" apply, if there was any validity to such things, as the organism does not typically reproduce sexually. They do sometimes form pair bonds but typically only for companionship.

What would you assume "alpha" is referring to?

My personal pet theory on this, having read everyone's conversation, is that since Loki is translating it... whatever the actual word is, it's not ACTUALLY Alpha, it's just the most fitting name he could think of.

I'd go the opposite direction, actually. It is the actual word. And it's also a false friend. Think about it: a decidedly non-human being translates stuff for decidedly non-human beings. Why should we assume a word the former spouts out is the name of some Greek letter? Maybe it's just some weird alien word for 'carrying weird alien hemorrhagic fever' or something.

[Rater202]

I'd go the opposite direction, actually. It is the actual word. And it's also a false friend. Think about it: a decidedly non-human being translates stuff for decidedly non-human beings. Why should we assume a word the former spouts out is the name of some Greek letter? Maybe it's just some weird alien word for 'carrying weird alien hemorrhagic fever' or something.

The "weird alien hemorrhagic fever" is called Horde.