Strongest dragon for the buck

[Idea Man]

I'll admit it; I have an irrational love of dragons. No good reason, they're just cool. Icon of the game, quintessential villain, baddest of bada** mounts you can have! But, for all that, which one is the "best"?

Which dragon is most dangerous for it's listed CR? In this case, let's assume meeting the dragon on it's home or ideal turf, making full use of available treasure/equipment, and dragon meaning anything with the dragon racial type.

I'd say it's the ibrandlin, from MoF. A CR 5 gargantuan (!) dragon.
*it has 10 HD (and, thus, +10 BAB)
*str of 35 and a con of 24
*has power attack, improved bull rush, and blind-fight
*bite does 4d6+12 and it has four claw attacks that do 2d8+6 each
*spell resistance of 20
*it also has a pin extraordinary ability that allows it to jump on to medium-size or smaller opponents. They get a DC 21 Reflex save or they are pinned (as the grapple manuver), its choice whether to deal 4d6 damage. If the victims lie still, they are just pinned, but if they try and free themselves, they take 4d6 damage per round until they escape.

It does have weak points (AC of 17, int of 4, fire subtype, 20 ft speed, dinky breath weapon), and could be made stronger (multiattack is the most noteable improvement), but I think a well placed ibrandlin will destroy just about any party of four 5th level characters. Even a straght fight that doesn't immediately nix the dragon (say, starting 300 ft away) will probably kill everyone.

Yes, shivering touch would probably null the dragon, but the wizard would have to actually touch it, not something a wizard would normally want to do at that level.

By the way, I checked the 3.5 update, and the CR apparently did not change. I think the only update was a missing feat (imp. bull rush).

Is there a better dragon than this? Not cooler; this one doesn't even have wings.

[brian c]

Whoa... That Damn Crab may have competition for most under-CRed. 4d6+12 damage and SR 20? Unbelievable.

[dyslexicfaser]

It can't measure up to yours, but the Dragon Turtle is a CR 8 encounter that can capsize ships of any size.

12 HD, 27 Str, 21 con, 17 natural armor, immune to fire and sleep and paralysis.

[deadseashoals]

That sounds utterly broken for its CR.

[WrstDmEvr]

Now for the templates

[AslanCross]

How on earth did that get away with a CR 5? O_o I never noticed it was Gargantuan before. Don't forget that it has an AB of +18 on its bite and +13 on its FOUR CLAWS. 2d8+6 damage on the claws, too.

[Drider]

How on earth did that get away with a CR 5? O_o I never noticed it was Gargantuan before. Don't forget that it has an AB of +18 on its bite and +13 on its FOUR CLAWS. 2d8+6 damage on the claws, too.

But...with an int of 4, is it gonna add everything up correctly?

[Lemur]

How on earth did that get away with a CR 5? O_o I never noticed it was Gargantuan before. Don't forget that it has an AB of +18 on its bite and +13 on its FOUR CLAWS. 2d8+6 damage on the claws, too.

It's probably evolved to kill Faerunian adventurers at level 5, before they can get into all the crazy prestige classes the setting has.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

It's probably evolved to kill Faerunian adventurers at level 5, before they can get into all the crazy prestige classes the setting has.

Which would explain why everyone else has at least ten levels in a PC class. They'd HAVE to if they lived through the mid-levels with those things around

Although I have to go for the Shadow Dragon. A breath weapon that deals negative levels?!

[Behold_the_Void]

I think there's a dragon in... is it Dark Sun? Or whatever. It breathes Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

[Randalor]

My vote is for Blighterghast *Iron Kingdoms*.

-48 HD
-50 Str, 40 Con, 33 Int, 30 Wis
-a breath attack for 28d10 damage that burns for an extra 15d10 damage a round until the person puts it out
-can create a fog cloud spell that he can control at will and burns everything inside of it for 5d10 damage a round *not much, granted, but still*
- Everything around him for 48 miles is corrupted and under his control.

And the sad part is, he isn't even the most powerful dragon in the IK universe *Lord Toruk is a living god who has an entire continent under his blight, and who's CR is "You die long before you even get to his mountain"*

[SeekerInTheNight]

Alright, here's a question. Does summoning (or making) a dustform ibrandlin make it lose fire subtype?

((For those who don't know, dustform is a Sandstorm template that involves dead animals returning as dust ghost kind of things. They gain some DR, lose some hp, gain some AC, get a breath weapon (an upgrade for the ibrandlin), and become the construct type.))

EDIT: The pyroclastic dragon is pretty ridiculous, especially if you can beef up its breath weapon. (It breaths fire/sonic cone or disintegrate line)

[Idea Man]

@Behold the Void: That must be a very sad ( )dragon. His most powerful ability destroys all of his good treasure

@Randalor: What's the CR on a blightergast?

@SeekerInTheNight: Unless it says so, it should keep any subtypes. If the breath weapon gets boosted, it can use that instaed of it's bite in a full attack. Says so in the description.

I'm willing to look into making a Divine Pseudonatural Paragon Advanced Ibrandlin, since that seems to be the most powerful template build. probably not going to rival the Damn Crab (okay, it really won't), but maybe I can whip something up. I need to plan some stuff for my game tomorrow morning (later today, whatever), so I'll get back to you on that.

[deadseashoals]

In fact, this thing is so utterly broken that it's one of the few creatures I'd feel justified using ray of stupidity on, if a DM ever threw one at an actual 5th-level party.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

@Behold the Void: That must be a very sad ( )dragon. His most powerful ability destroys all of his good treasure

@Randalor: What's the CR on a blightergast?

@SeekerInTheNight: Unless it says so, it should keep any subtypes. If the breath weapon gets boosted, it can use that instaed of it's bite in a full attack. Says so in the description.

I'm willing to look into making a Divine Pseudonatural Paragon Advanced Ibrandlin, since that seems to be the most powerful template build. probably not going to rival the Damn Crab (okay, it really won't), but maybe I can whip something up. I need to plan some stuff for my game tomorrow morning (later today, whatever), so I'll get back to you on that.

hmm...could you make it half celestial to boot? not sure about the 3.5 one, but the 3.0 half celestial with a fire immune creature was a beautiful thing...ooh...and don't forget to add psionic template as well...the one from the 3.0 psionics book was goss and horribly broken...which is probably why they did away with it for the expanded book.

[Renegade Paladin]

What's the one that casts as a 22nd level sorcerer at CR 18 at the great wyrm stage? Steel dragons, I think?

[Draz74]

For the most powerful dragon for its CR, I recommend something with a lot of "nonassociated" but helpful class levels. Even the inbrandlin could probably get nastier this way.

Also, every old dragon should take 1 level of Sorcerer, even if it counts as an associated level. The boost to spellcasting is small but nice, but the real reason is to get ... a familiar! Because a familiar should no longer be thought of as a liability, not when it's got half the HP of an old dragon, and all of the BAB!!! In fact, see if you can take Improved Familiar and get something with 13 Str and Power Attack, and you can suddenly be Delivering Touch Spells and doing reasonable damage at the same time. Ow!

@Renegade Paladin: OK, actually, that one has my vote. Full casters are really the most under-CRed things in the game anyway, and this one can fight well too. Yikes.

[Randalor]

@Randalor: What's the CR on a blightergast?

CR 37, and most of the magic cheese in IK doesn't exist *well, some does, but it has disturbingly not-good side effects, like being permanently marked as someone who deals with Infernal beings, even if you don't*

[Frosty]

An Int 4 dragon is asking to be Ray of Stupiditied too...but yeah otherwise it is about 5 CRs too low at the very least.

[lord_khaine]

ill still vote for that CR 5 critter, its just to dam low, and challenge rating has a much bigger impact on those levels than it have higher up.

[MaxMahem]

While that CR 5 one sounds pretty mean I have also found Rust Dragons to be particularly nasty. Especially against a melee heavy party very reliant on there melee weapons.

Consider this, you make a huge rust dragon and give it the snatch and swallow feats. Then, grab the fighter/cleric and digest him. When in the dragons mouth he does not get a save if subjected to the rust dragons breath weapon, and hence all his metal equipment (magic items included) is destroyed (hope you had a wooden holy symbol!). Then, after being digested he is again subjected to the breath weapon effect without save (just in case you didn't use it while he was in mouth), and has little to no chance of escape. He needs to deal slashing or piercing damage to get out of the dragons belly, but without any metal equipment that is just about impossible to do. For bonus points consider that the constant damage a round makes it very difficult to cast spells as well.

I don't recommend using this on your PCs though, they will not be happy with you if you destroy all their equipment with no save chance!

[Talic]

Pound for pound physically? That CR5 has it.

Overall, including intellect, battlefield shaping, terrain advantage, and the like?

Blue.

Arid, inhospitable environs, easy to bury people with the right prep work whilst burrowing through sand (and what dragon wouldn't prep their lair??), illusion, voice throwing? I mean, when you combine the temperament to kill, the power to kill, and enough misdirection to make people not know where it's coming from, it's a pretty good combo.

[Cuddly]

An Int 4 dragon is asking to be Ray of Stupiditied too...but yeah otherwise it is about 5 CRs too low at the very least.

Good luck breaking the SR20 at level 5....

[Frosty]

Cast Sure Casting before hand. Get +10 to penetrate SR on next spell.

[Burrito]

Well, not sure about the 3.0 or 3.5 dragons, but the DragonKing of Tyr, was about the most badass of the 2nd edition dragons. Even with the DM being nice, it was almost a TPK.

[Thrawn183]

and still have at least a decent chance of failing to penetrate

[Closet_Skeleton]

Cast Sure Casting before hand. Get +10 to penetrate SR on next spell.

That's an extra turn of spellcasting. A turn the dragon can use to charge you and bit your frail wizard head off.

[bugsysservant]

The Ibrandlin is the reason I almost don't have MoF. I picked up the book in the store, and flipped to a random page. After seeing the Ibrandlin statistics first thing, it almost scared me enough to just put the book down and walk out.

[Frosty]

Two round kill is better than anything else you can do. Besides, that's why you are a Conjuration Specialist. You Abrupt Jaunt out of the way when the dragon charges.

Heck the dragon can only perform one attack on the charge. You can have Mirror Images protecting you.

[....]

Two round kill is better than anything else you can do. Besides, that's why you are a Conjuration Specialist. You Abrupt Jaunt out of the way when the dragon charges.

Heck the dragon can only perform one attack on the charge. You can have Mirror Images protecting you.

Its made clear yet again that wizards are super-overpowered...

As long as they have exactly one encounter that they know everything about beforehand.