Goblins XIX: New Year, New Updates

[Cygnia]

The spirit of a prophecy of death is that it is the end of your life, though. What's the point of predicting someone's death if they come back to life afterward?

More torturous wangst of course!

[Kish]

The spirit of a prophecy of death is that it is the end of your life, though.

In a fantasy world with established resurrection, I disagree utterly. And of all the legitimate or illegitimate criticisms that can be leveled at Elli, that one is equally applicable (or inapplicable, as the case may be) to Rich Burlew, you do realize.

[Keltest]

In a fantasy world with established resurrection, I disagree utterly. And of all the legitimate or illegitimate criticisms that can be leveled at Elli, that one is equally applicable (or inapplicable, as the case may be) to Rich Burlew, you do realize.

Unless youre trying to suggest that Rich is somehow beyond criticism himself, I dont know what point you think youre making here.

[Fyraltari]

In a fantasy world with established resurrection, I disagree utterly. And of all the legitimate or illegitimate criticisms that can be leveled at Elli, that one is equally applicable (or inapplicable, as the case may be) to Rich Burlew, you do realize.

Yes. I have said before that I find both of Durkon's prophecies to be lacking.

[Kish]

Yes. I have said before that I find both of Durkon's prophecies to be lacking.

Well at least that's consistency, but as long as you read fantasy webcomics set in worlds with established resurrection and parse "die" into "die and not come back," y'should be prepared for disappointment.

[Fyraltari]

Well at least that's consistency, but as long as you read fantasy webcomics set in worlds with established resurrection and parse "die" into "die and not come back," y'should be prepared for disappointment.

Thing is, characters in these webcomics agree with me. None of them ever hear the prophecy and go "Heh, I'll just have a buddy resurrect me." Everyone understand them as being about their actual death, because of course they do. It loses all its weight otherwise.

[Kish]

Thing is, characters in these webcomics agree with me. None of them ever hear the prophecy and go "Heh, I'll just have a buddy resurrect me." Everyone understand them as being about their actual death, because of course they do. It loses all its weight otherwise.

Tosh. "We know Durkon's going to die at some point before he goes to the dwarven lands" shaped people's expectations for OotS right up until Durkon actually died, even though nearly everyone on the forum immediately understood that, contrary to what Durkon himself thought, no way he was staying down. It's been quite a while since I read the Goblins forum but when I did no one there expected Dies-Horribly to actually die and stay dead either.

And whatever you think Durkon and Roy thinking Durkon would stay dead counts for, I continue to think you're putting way too much weight on "they thought it" and way too little on "they were demonstrably wrong." Do you have any examples of a webcomic character who's thought that a prophecy of death, with no further verbiage, meant permanent death and been right?

(Belkar will probably stay dead, but I say that solely because the Oracle did take the time to spell out that it would be Belkar's last breath ever. Because the Oracle understands that the mere prediction of "he'll die, now I stop talking" would not logically indicate Belkar was going to stay dead.)

[Keltest]

Tosh. "We know Durkon's going to die at some point before he goes to the dwarven lands" shaped people's expectations for OotS right up until Durkon actually died, even though nearly everyone on the forum immediately understood that, contrary to what Durkon himself thought, no way he was staying down. It's been quite a while since I read the Goblins forum but when I did no one there expected Dies-Horribly to actually die and stay dead either.

And whatever you think Durkon and Roy thinking Durkon would stay dead counts for, I continue to think you're putting way to much weight on "they thought it" and way too little on "they were demonstrably wrong." Do you have any examples of a webcomic character who's thought that a prophecy of death, with no further verbiage, meant permanent death and been right?

(Belkar will probably stay dead, but I say that solely because the Oracle did take the time to spell out that it would be Belkar's last breath ever. Because the Oracle understands that the mere prediction of "he'll die, now I stop talking" would not logically indicate Belkar was going to stay dead.)

Im not sure that arguing that Roy and Durkon were basically angsting over nothing (or celebrating, in Durkon's case) thinking that Durkon was going to stay dead is doing much to undermine the idea that a death prophecy where the subject doesnt stay dead is functionally worthless, both from a watsonian and doyalistic perspective.

[Dragonus45]

The spirit of a prophecy of death is that it is the end of your life, though. What's the point of predicting someone's death if they come back to life afterward?

It's an example of how prophy works in tricky ways with vague and unclear meanings.

[Anarchic Fox]

(summary of character arcs)

That's a good summary, but it reveals that Ellipsis relies way too much on prophecies for foreshadowing.

[Vinyadan]

The spirit of a prophecy of death is that it is the end of your life, though. What's the point of predicting someone's death if they come back to life afterward?

In the case of Goblins, powerful divine magic seems to be pretty rare (even Kore is just a paladin). None of the goblins who died at the warcamp came back, and, of the 7 humanoid PCs we have seen dead, only Forgath came back. Even Saral Caine seemed to be considered dead for good by GS, in spite of the vast resources he had available. And IIRC MM and Forgath do not consider the possibility of GS being resurrected, when they discuss killing him.

Of course, it's a weird world, and so Dies did not stay dead because of a faulty assumption by a demon that mistakenly got two souls while buying one, while Forgath gets a special (and, possibly, botched) resurrection from the Klicks.

Recursive death is also a rare, yet real possibility, and it has been featured prominently. We have seen it in the Maze of Many and for souls sold to the demons. Before the contract went wrong, Dies actually expected his prophecy to mean that he would spend eternity being killed over and over again by the demons.

For example, I don't expect Chief to come back to life. He probably will be freed, but that's about it. On the other hand, Pawlusz did come back to life after he was chopped off from Kore's body, so the comic seems to actually allow Chief to be resurrected.

About OotS, it's probably worth observing that even Durkon wasn't sad when he heard the prophecy. He emotionally sidestepped the issue of being dead, the same way a reader of the PH could have for different reasons. And, by the time the prophecy came to fruition, Durkon wasn't really what was at stake any more, it was about the world, and Pseudurkon was actively working first for the bad guys, and then for other bad guys.

About overuse of prophecy, I wouldn't call it overuse, as much as one of the bedrocks that make Goblins what it is. It's funny and absurd at the start (what sort of prophecy is "Complains of Names"?), but it also has deeper implications concerning traditionalism and the fight against socially assigned roles that mix with destiny. Take Chief's story, a sham, or Fox's story. The Vipers deliberately avoid it, setting themselves apart from the rest. And it can be used defensively, by foreseeing what is going to strike the camp, but, while useful, this makes it even more inescapable.
With MM and Forgath, I think it's more in line with the typical death prophecy that adds some tragic tension to the story. But they also decide the GAP is going to destroy the world because they found the white terror prophecy (or propaganda?) and let their actions be decided from it.

[Anarchic Fox]

About overuse of prophecy, I wouldn't call it overuse, as much as one of the bedrocks that make Goblins what it is. It's funny and absurd at the start (what sort of prophecy is "Complains of Names"?), but it also has deeper implications concerning traditionalism and the fight against socially assigned roles that mix with destiny. Take Chief's story, a sham, or Fox's story. The Vipers deliberately avoid it, setting themselves apart from the rest. And it can be used defensively, by foreseeing what is going to strike the camp, but, while useful, this makes it even more inescapable.
With MM and Forgath, I think it's more in line with the typical death prophecy that adds some tragic tension to the story. But they also decide the GAP is going to destroy the world because they found the white terror prophecy (or propaganda?) and let their actions be decided from it.

That's a good point. I dislike the trope overall, so I missed that Ellipsis' take on it is an unusually methodical one.

[Anonymouswizard]

Maybe there never was a prophecy related to his death, and goblin fortune tellers are bad at spelling.

He was at the warcamp because he's no longer allowed to make clothes.

[tomandtish]

The spirit of a prophecy of death is that it is the end of your life, though. What's the point of predicting someone's death if they come back to life afterward?

Except that in most fiction prophecies almost never mean what people think they mean. There's usually a twist, a loophole, or an unlooked meaning. Straightforward prophecies with no ambiguity are definitely in the minority.

[Willie the Duck]

The spirit of a prophecy of death is that it is the end of your life, though. What's the point of predicting someone's death if they come back to life afterward?

Fundamentally, at least for me, I think this is more of an issue with what semi-reliable resurrections do to narratives in general (which is to say, this is where I lay the blame). Defeat the bad guy? Well, they can always come back. Friend dead? Don't grieve, get your rear in gear and get them back alive. Assassinate the king? Well then, three days later he might congratulate you on the impressive attempt and offer you a job. If you throw in rejuvenation or other life-span defeats and then you have to rebuilt why at least the rich and powerful ever plan on dying; removing things like impressive statues and graves for lords of long ago, princes(ses) waiting to inherent the throne, or historical events lost to time (since the people who were there are still around, although then this opens up the question of how many memories a mind can hold).

[Morgaln]

Fundamentally, at least for me, I think this is more of an issue with what semi-reliable resurrections do to narratives in general (which is to say, this is where I lay the blame). Defeat the bad guy? Well, they can always come back. Friend dead? Don't grieve, get your rear in gear and get them back alive. Assassinate the king? Well then, three days later he might congratulate you on the impressive attempt and offer you a job. If you throw in rejuvenation or other life-span defeats and then you have to rebuilt why at least the rich and powerful ever plan on dying; removing things like impressive statues and graves for lords of long ago, princes(ses) waiting to inherent the throne, or historical events lost to time (since the people who were there are still around, although then this opens up the question of how many memories a mind can hold).

I've never considered this, but you just gave me a thought. In a world like the Forgotten Realms, where powerful casters are a dime a dozen, the only reason why there is a royal succession at all must be that whoever succeds a king is not willing to dole out the cash to have the king resurrected. Which has certain implications on who is most likely to actually inherit in the long run...

---

Anyway, on topic:
Dies Horribly's story is nowhere near over. If we go by a classic three-act story, he just finished the second act: he faced his main antagonist (Junior) for the first time; he was defeated and lost a friend (Klik). His arm was lost (again) and replaced with a new one that we know can be used as a weapon against Junior. What's missing is the third act, where Dies becomes proactive, goes to fight the villain of his story and triumphs.

As for Cheif, I never considered his story to be over. He had barely begun showing courage and atoning for his previous cowardice. The whole Brassmoon arc was mostly just him trying to survive; he never showed real heroism, as opposed to the other goblins. He never really faced any of his demons (not his cowardice nor his unwillingness to be chief). Also, he was the only one who noticed that Saral Caine wore a belt that looked like his crown; a plot point that never went anywhere (yet, at least). There was a lot going on that was just cut off when he died. Note that killing Chief, especially in a heroic sacrifice, is a fitting end to his arc, but he would have needed an arc to begin with. Just as an example: imagine Chief confessing to hiding while the goblins he was supposed to lead were dying. Imagine him and Complains having a falling-out over this. Then Chief sacrifices himself and marks Complains as the future chief before dying in his arms. Suddenly, that scene is so much more meaningful; it's chief, in his death, saying "you were right and I was wrong." But this would have required more time to actually establish a full arc for Chief.
To this day, I believe Chief died purely for meta reasons; Elli wanted no clerics in the current dungeon, as they would have trivialized the lol pearl trap. She wanted Complains to be chief and Fumbles to be teller and neither would have worked with Chief still around, so she needed to get rid of him.

[Anarchic Fox]

Good analysis, Morgaln. Let me also point out that not all characters need to have arcs. Back in classical Greek plays, only the protagonist and deuteragonist did.

[Willie the Duck]

I've never considered this, but you just gave me a thought. In a world like the Forgotten Realms, where powerful casters are a dime a dozen, the only reason why there is a royal succession at all must be that whoever succeds a king is not willing to dole out the cash to have the king resurrected. Which has certain implications on who is most likely to actually inherit in the long run...

Yeah, it's one of the issues with Fantasy -- some of the magic that occurs in fantasy would logically negate some of the medieval tropes we also expect them to include. Some of those are easy to at least paper over -- put a few ballista on top of every castle and you say 'yeah, they know flying creatures don't care about walls.' Others change things fundamentally, and you either have to quietly ignore them and hope your audience does as well, or produce (a whole lot of) in-universe explanations (such as in Girl Genius, where royals who get resurrected lose their claims to titles specifically to prevent this chaos).

Good analysis, Morgaln. Let me also point out that not all characters need to have arcs. Back in classical Greek plays, only the protagonist and deuteragonist did.

This is absolutely true. And if Dies was a simple supporting character (let's say this was a typical five-man-band and it was the Leader, Lancer, and Antagonists who got to develop, while Dies the Heart, Brain, or Brawn), this would work really well. It would be weird though, for him not to have an arc, given that for most of the time we've known him he has effectively been the protagonist of a side-plot. Fortunately, he has had an arc, it's just not (at this point) a classic three-act story. Since we're pointing things out, I'll point out that classic three-act stories aren't a requirement, just a trend. If Dies does all he needs to do in 2 or even one-and-a-half acts (say, we cut away from him mid-climax of act two, but it really works in a 'you don't always get to find out what happens' way), then that is fine. Breaking the 'rules' of storytelling work when they are really well done. I don't feel that that is specifically true with this case, though, and I hope we do see an end to Dies' sub-plot at some point (before the end, circa 2035).

[Dragonus45]

I've never considered this, but you just gave me a thought. In a world like the Forgotten Realms, where powerful casters are a dime a dozen, the only reason why there is a royal succession at all must be that whoever succeds a king is not willing to dole out the cash to have the king resurrected. Which has certain implications on who is most likely to actually inherit in the long run...

---

A lot of setting with that kind of magic easily at hand tend to just work it into the rules of succession in some way to compensate. Usually a rule that says you get removed from the line of succession when dead or somesuch.

[sihnfahl]

A lot of setting with that kind of magic easily at hand tend to just work it into the rules of succession in some way to compensate. Usually a rule that says you get removed from the line of succession when dead or somesuch.

Kind of like in Girl Genius? Where someone who's undergone a rejuv is out of the line of succession?

[Keltest]

In the Realms at least, it doesnt necessarily need to be codified in law. If the king was popular or otherwise well liked, the current king might abdicate to allow them to rule until they die of old age or get sick of it. If they were incompetent or unpopular, there wont be enough support for a civil war or anything, so they just send them off to a retirement home or wherever. The desire for the throne of the heir also has a strong impact on whether the previous king gets resurrected if he is killed before his time.

[Vinyadan]

I think prophecies in ancient stories also deal with what is impossible for men, like knowing the future or preventing destiny. It's like searching for immortality, in the end it's not going to work (see Achilles and Gilgamesh).

So you have incomprehensible prophecies that are built like ambiguous puzzles that can be completed in many ways and with different meanings, so that it's like not having received them at all, or rueful prophecies like "he will kill his father" that men can't manage to prevent.

I hope we do see an end to Dies' sub-plot at some point (before the end, circa 2035).

At the current rate, I think that would be less than 200 pages. I don't feel it's enough for a conclusion. Then again, prophecieeees...

[ZhonLord]

I hope we do see an end to Dies' sub-plot at some point (before the end, circa 2035).

Technically his name should now be Died Horribly, unless you subscribe to the idea that his name actually means "horrible at dying".

[Silly Name]

I've never considered this, but you just gave me a thought. In a world like the Forgotten Realms, where powerful casters are a dime a dozen, the only reason why there is a royal succession at all must be that whoever succeds a king is not willing to dole out the cash to have the king resurrected. Which has certain implications on who is most likely to actually inherit in the long run...

In a forum post on Candlekeep, which I won't link and advise againts seeking out due to... other stuff in that post, Ed Greenwood explained that most countries in the Realms prohibit resurrected monarchs from claiming the throne back: you died, your heir became king, no take backsies.

[Traab]

Too be fair, in forgotten realms, resurrection magic is super duper high end stuff. Its not something every tom **** or abbot can cast, so yeah, even for kings, unless they have a Cadderly Bonaduce on staff, dead is usually dead. The people capable of magic on that level are fairly few and far between. And often both busy with their own issues, or too powerful to give a flip for what some ruler wants. Of course I may be wrong, lord knows its been a lot of years since I read any forgotten realms books and the rules are probably different now. Im pretty sure I stopped when drizzt bruenor and cattie brie were each on their second time being totally dead, no for realsies this time, haha tricked you, here they are totally alive!" (can you tell I was being annoyed by the series when I stopped reading?) But in this comic, it really IS super duper rare. This is an oddly low level high loot death world. Wouldnt shock me to find an item that can bring back the dead. But it will probably kill 5 of the users closest friends to activate.

[Yuki Akuma]

Too be fair, in forgotten realms, resurrection magic is super duper high end stuff. Its not something every tom **** or abbot can cast, so yeah, even for kings, unless they have a Cadderly Bonaduce on staff, dead is usually dead. The people capable of magic on that level are fairly few and far between. And often both busy with their own issues, or too powerful to give a flip for what some ruler wants. Of course I may be wrong, lord knows its been a lot of years since I read any forgotten realms books and the rules are probably different now. Im pretty sure I stopped when drizzt bruenor and cattie brie were each on their second time being totally dead, no for realsies this time, haha tricked you, here they are totally alive!" (can you tell I was being annoyed by the series when I stopped reading?) But in this comic, it really IS super duper rare. This is an oddly low level high loot death world. Wouldnt shock me to find an item that can bring back the dead. But it will probably kill 5 of the users closest friends to activate.

Raise Dead is only a 5th level spell - going by the demographic tables in the DMG, every capital city would likely have someone capable of casting that.

[halfeye]

Raise Dead is only a 5th level spell - going by the demographic tables in the DMG, every capital city would likely have someone capable of casting that.

Does that get you more than a zombie?

[Gez]

Does that get you more than a zombie?

It's a healing spell, not a necromantic one. It revives the corpse as a normal living person, with their original soul and mind and free will, though a bit worse off -- they lose a level in the process, or two points of Con if they were level 1.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm

You want zombies, you'll get Animate Dead instead. It's a lower level spell, but a necromantic one, instead of a healing one.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm

[Vinyadan]

There's a new page.

[The Glyphstone]

The most interesting characters in Goblins continue to not be goblins.