Poison Rant

[TempusCCK]

Poisons in 3.5 suck.

They are terrible terrible useless things. The standard set of poisons you can make by RAW and the poisons given in any of the books are simply so useless, that a majority of the ones you might consider using have such a low Save DC that a 1st level character still has a roughly 50% shot of saving.

Why would anyone even bother to write those things down in a table, they're so useless beyond the 3rd or 4th level that it's just sickening.

Not to mention crazy costs to make for the decent ones, and a chance to poison yourself if you're not proficient.

Poisonmaking should be left completely to Houseruling and DM Fiat. Poisons in 3.5 SUCK!

-End Rant-

[Signmaker]

Exalted Feat: Touch of Golden Ice
Add to Monk, let monk have fun with evil creatures.

Poisons are useful when used en-masse. That way, one of them is bound to hit, if only due to natural 1 failure. Unfortunately, as all the decent ones are quite expensive, such use is limited.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Touch of golden ice sucks too, because it doesn't scale. That's the problem with poisons.


If you wanna play with poisons, use the psionic Prevenom Weapon and Truevenom Weapon, or it's touch equivalents. THOSE are teh good stuff, because they scale up.

[MalachorWraith]

Agreed. I did a little PvP thing a couple of weeks ago with a DM and tricked an opponent into drinking a potion that had "regeneration" written on it in common. It was Dark Reaver Powder mildly diluted in water and he chugged it and made the fortitude save rolling a 7. There ought to be some better applications of poison in the game.

[Azerian Kelimon]

As I said above, psionic or magical poisons are pretty much the only chance of it working, because you need a DC that scales up.

[TempusCCK]

Meh, you're right, they should scale, so perhaps something like, a poison, no matter what kind that is being made, has a save DC equal to somethign like the caster level check. 11+Poisonmaking Ranks.

Or maybe a DC =3/4 result of the Craft check.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Nah, that'd make it only mildly weaker than a diplocheese build. I prefer the possibility of expending an X level spell slot to create a magical poison with a DC of (10 + 1/2 caster level + Key stat bonus).

[PnP Fan]

Not sure about the details of crafting, but the BoVD has some pretty nasty poisons (saves in the neighborhood of DC 35-55).

[Azerian Kelimon]

Meh. If we speak BoVD, I bring a H. I. V. E. who can get some kind of poison with higher level foh shua.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, you can always try using actual potions - a caster level 10 potion of Fireball is always amusing.

[Azerian Kelimon]

But we're speaking about posions, not potions, aren't we?


Though, potion of fireball...hmm, I've GOT to tryy that against the next BBEG that doesn't have fire immunity,

[TempusCCK]

Nah, that'd make it only mildly weaker than a diplocheese build. I prefer the possibility of expending an X level spell slot to create a magical poison with a DC of (10 + 1/2 caster level + Key stat bonus).

Yeah, but what about non-casters or crappy casters like the ninja. The Ninja as written (haha, the NAW) is practically throwing away levels because poisonmaking sucks so much.

How about a system like this, when making a poison, to find the DC, you add 5 + 1/2 of the poisonmaking check.

So say a 5th level character makes a poison and rolls a 5 on his check, with max ranks in poisonmaking and +1 INT bonus, you have 8+5+1=14, one half of 14 is 7, so the save DC is 12, for a crappy potion.

A character of equal level with a good fort save only has to roll a 8 ( with no Con mod) to make the save, that's a decent chance for a crappy poison. Likewise, a character with a bad Fort save is going to have to roll an 11 (again with no CON mod) to save

The same 5th level character rolls a 16 on his check, so he adds 8 and 1 for a total of 25, half of which is 13, (rounded up) So the save DC is 17. Now a character of equal level with a good fort save has to roll a 13 to save, which is still under what the craftmaker had to roll to make the poison good, and a character with a bad save has to roll a 15, which is almost equal to what the crafter had to roll to make his poison any good.


Mmm, this makes a little sense for being pulled out of my a**. I'm going to crunch the numbers a little more and see if this is a viable fix. Opinons and criticism welcome.

[Jack_Simth]

But we're speaking about posions, not potions, aren't we?

What's the practical difference between an ingested poison and a potion of a hostile spell?

[Azerian Kelimon]

The immunity to poisons, the requirement for a DC against poison, the inherent stat damage...do I need to continue?

Also, that system sounds nice. Hmm...maybe we could just suggest that classes that deal with poisons (Ninja's, assasin's, etc.) Get some way of applying my spell system without needing spells?

[mostlyharmful]

What's the practical difference between an ingested poison and a potion of a hostile spell?

One scales, and thus is useful. The other doesn't, and thus is utterly pointless as well as being overpriced and subject to an abstract "incompetance" 5% roll.

[dwagiebard]

What's the practical difference between an ingested poison and a potion of a hostile spell?

The fact that potions are based off of spellcasting, and poisons are just a flat (pathetic) DC.

[Jack_Simth]

Azerian Kelimon, mostlyharmful, and dwagiebard:
So, basically, you're all saying that the only practical difference between an ingested poison and a potion of a hostile spell is that the potion works better?

So why not switch over in what you use?

For instance, a potion of Extended Acid Arrow at caster level 18 would cost 2,700 gp (3(spell level)*18(caster level)*50(Potion base)) and would deal 28d4 acid damage (2d4 per round for (1+18/3)*2=14 rounds - with no save; average 70 damage). As a potion contains exactly one ounce of liquid, it would work well in someone's drink.

[Azerian Kelimon]

More or less. Poisons don't have to pass SR, but unless you find a way to override immunity to 'em, and a way to scale the DC's, they suck so bad that it's not funny.

[TempusCCK]

Yeah, but potions of hostile spells are caster-only, this is something for a non-caster.

An example is, you want to knock out a the High Priest of [Evil God], he has a fantastic Will save, so your magic users spells are less likely to work than a good old fort-save poison, but poisons suck, so that limits your options. Also, a potion of a damage dealing spell is going to be hard to use on-injury and on-contact. And would have to be forced down someones mouth of snuck into their drink/food, which also limits possibilities.

It's freedom... the freedom to hurt people how I want, when I want.

[dwagiebard]

he has a fantastic Will save, so your magic users spells are less likely to work than a good old fort-save poison.

IIRC, some spells force fort save.

EDIT: The perfect spell: Melf's acid arrow.

---
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: One arrow of acid
Duration: 1 round + 1 round per three levels
Saving Throw: None (!!!)
Spell Resistance: No

A magical arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage with no splash damage. For every three caster levels (to a maximum of 18th), the acid, unless somehow neutralized, lasts for another round, dealing another 2d4 points of damage in that round.
---

The Damage isn't great, but if you want a potion that's sure to work, this is the one for you.

[dyslexicfaser]

I have to ask - how does a potion of fireball or melf's acid arrow make any sense at all?

You drink it, and what, an acid arrow forms in your gut?

[Jack Zander]

You should suffer ill effects from poison even if you succeed your save. Honestly, who drinks a vial of poison (or gets bit by a venomous snake) and walks away like nothing happened?

Also, poisons should slowly drain abilities each minute/hour depending on the poison until the character makes two saves in a row (like quicker versions of diseases).

[Jacob Orlove]

Brew Potion [Item Creation]
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures.

(Emphasis mine).

Spells like Fireball and Melf's Acid Arrow have a line for effect, not target. That means you can't make potions of them.

What you want is a Wondrous Item. Specifically, an Elixir. You'd need to work it out with your DM, but Elixir of Love should provide a reasonable model to follow. Just change the spell from Charm Person to, oh, say, Poison

[Jack Zander]

I have to ask - how does a potion of fireball or melf's acid arrow make any sense at all?

You drink it, and what, an acid arrow forms in your gut?

You cant make a potion of fireball becuase fireball doesn't target one or more creatures.

Milf's Acid Arrow works though. I guess it would work something like that. I dunno, maybe acid sprays into the back of their throat while the drink it.

EDIT: What he said ^

[Turcano]

(Emphasis mine).

Spells like Fireball and Melf's Acid Arrow have a line for effect, not target. That means you can't make potions of them.

What you want is a Wondrous Item. Specifically, an Elixir. You'd need to work it out with your DM, but Elixir of Love should provide a reasonable model to follow. Just change the spell from Charm Person to, oh, say, Poison

Or shivering touch.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Potion of maximized empowered magic missile, cast with 5 missiles. 25+5d2. Do you know how awesome that would be?

[TempusCCK]

dwagiebard Quote:
Originally Posted by TempusCCK
he has a fantastic Will save, so your magic users spells are less likely to work than a good old fort-save poison.

IIRC, some spells force fort save.

EDIT: The perfect spell: Melf's acid arrow.

---
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: One arrow of acid
Duration: 1 round + 1 round per three levels
Saving Throw: None (!!!)
Spell Resistance: No

A magical arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage with no splash damage. For every three caster levels (to a maximum of 18th), the acid, unless somehow neutralized, lasts for another round, dealing another 2d4 points of damage in that round.
---

The Damage isn't great, but if you want a potion that's sure to work, this is the one for you.

You missed the point. I don't want to kill him, I want to knock him out. Most things that are magical and allow me to take control of someone is going to be based on Will. If you want to capture someone with a high will save, rather than just damage them, it's much better to use a contact or injury poison, rather than sneaking a potion into their drink.

Sure, it would be easier if you just wanted to kill them, then you could just play a spellcaster and do it more efficiently. I want poisons (contact, ingested, injury what have you) to be more effective by not having sucky DC's.

The advantage of a poison that knocks someone out over a Potion of Sleep snuck into their drink is 1)Will Save against Sleep vrs. Fort Save. This is good for using it against low-fort enemies like casters, and 2) Rather than sneaking it into their drink, I can coat it on the Rogues' crossbow and have them shoot the guy, creating an injury transfered effect. This can mean the difference between a successful attack and a botched mission.

[deadseashoals]

How about a potion of poison?

[Prometheus]

I think the biggest problem with poisons in D&D is not that they are underpowered, but they are balanced in the wrong way. Real-world poisons are much more deadly, but they are also able to be detected with mundane means. In D&D, they are effectively invisible, with the exception of Detect Poison.

There should be a skill check (Heal? Appraise? Sense Motive? Search? Craft (poision)? Knowledge (Dungeoneering or Nature)? ) and poisons should have much higher DCs.

You guys said it right though, the real use of poisons is many doses, so that only the rich or those with special access can use them effectively.

[TempusCCK]

Yeah, but what about non-casters or crappy casters like the ninja. The Ninja as written (haha, the NAW) is practically throwing away levels because poisonmaking sucks so much.

How about a system like this, when making a poison, to find the DC, you add 5 + 1/2 of the poisonmaking check.

So say a 5th level character makes a poison and rolls a 5 on his check, with max ranks in poisonmaking and +1 INT bonus, you have 8+5+1=14, one half of 14 is 7, so the save DC is 12, for a crappy potion.

A character of equal level with a good fort save only has to roll a 8 ( with no Con mod) to make the save, that's a decent chance for a crappy poison. Likewise, a character with a bad Fort save is going to have to roll an 11 (again with no CON mod) to save

The same 5th level character rolls a 16 on his check, so he adds 8 and 1 for a total of 25, half of which is 13, (rounded up) So the save DC is 17. Now a character of equal level with a good fort save has to roll a 13 to save, which is still under what the craftmaker had to roll to make the poison good, and a character with a bad save has to roll a 15, which is almost equal to what the crafter had to roll to make his poison any good.


Mmm, this makes a little sense for being pulled out of my a**. I'm going to crunch the numbers a little more and see if this is a viable fix. Opinons and criticism welcome.

This is my fix Prometheus, and I think it's viable for creating a good balance between poisons and the person who you're using the poison on. Level and the INT or CON scores of the maker/target are going to effect odds, obvioiusly, but that's the way it should be.

This way you get a scaled DC on the different poisons you create.