Official OGL Discussion Thread

[warty goblin]

I can't see getting upset with what WoTC will and will not publish on their own as much of a sweeping ethical issue. A practical issue sure, there's stuff that would be fun to have that they won't do, but that's as far as it goes.

The bit where they wanted to dictate what everybody else could publish was a genuine problem.

[Brookshw]

So the market niche of "people who have no idea what this thing is and no interest in learning more, but also somehow know about its reputation, who would otherwise be willing to get it for people (that they presumably think would like it, despite having no prior knowledge of it at all)" needs to be protected?

That's up to WoTC, same as any other segment of their customer base they may desire to protect or not offend.

[Keltest]

That's up to WoTC, same as any other segment of their customer base they may desire to protect or not offend.

So its Wizard's job to decide on the merits of a stance you are advocating for?

[Brookshw]

So its Wizard's job to decide on the merits of a stance you are advocating for?

That their position isn't without merit, or at least, is understandable? Yes, I would expect that. It can't come as a shock that protecting their image, reputation and good will is something they're concerned with or consider to have merit. Their product, their risk, they get to decide.

[Psyren]

Thing is, once again, your argument for why WotC shouldn't publish such things could be applied to them being published at all. After all, why should anybody have to police what children watch on streaming services? The streaming services should simply not have such things on them!

If you can pitch them a scenario where the revenue they'd gain from publishing Dark Sun would be worth all the work it would take them to pre-empt and navigate any potential PR issues they might run into doing so, be my guest. (Also, what Brookshw said.)

[NichG]

Well it'd be great if a 3pp did Dark Sun stuff, except they can't... So maybe the appropriate thing for WotC to do if they don't want to take the risk is to put Dark Sun under OGL/CC and let people go with it.

Or, alternately, ignoring WotC it'd be interesting to ask how close you could get to Dark Sun in spirit without treading on specific IP - is there actually enough space to make a spiritual successor to Dark Sun, or would it flop for the people who do want Dark Sun because it'd be missing particular iconic things or would seem like a soft-ball version of the original setting somehow in stepping cautiously around the IP boundaries...

How hard would it be to make a Dark Sun clone that doesn't suck and doesn't infringe?

[Brookshw]

Well it'd be great if a 3pp did Dark Sun stuff

Add "well" to the end of that and sounds good, some 3pp are quality, others....

, except they can't... So maybe the appropriate thing for WotC to do if they don't want to take the risk is to put Dark Sun under OGL/CC and let people go with it.

If memory serves, they did something like that initially with SJ in 3e and basically gave it to spelljammer.org to run/maintain. Can't see that happening based on their current practices, but it would be nice. There's some fan conversion stuff available if you look around a bit.

Or, alternately, ignoring WotC it'd be interesting to ask how close you could get to Dark Sun in spirit without treading on specific IP - is there actually enough space to make a spiritual successor to Dark Sun, or would it flop for the people who do want Dark Sun because it'd be missing particular iconic things or would seem like a soft-ball version of the original setting somehow in stepping cautiously around the IP boundaries...

How hard would it be to make a Dark Sun clone that doesn't suck and doesn't infringe?

Depends I guess what you consider DS' core identity, not like WoTC has a monopoly on post-apocalyptic worlds run by warlords. Also, if that's what you want, there are other games out there that offer such content. Next time I run GURPs I'm thinking of doing something along those lines (with a bit more of a sci-fi lost tech thing maybe).

[skyth]

If memory serves, they did something like that initially with SJ in 3e and basically gave it to spelljammer.org to run/maintain. Can't see that happening based on their current practices, but it would be nice. There's some fan conversion stuff available if you look around a bit.

There was a 3E conversion of Spelljammer in the a Dungeon magazine back in the day.

[Brookshw]

There was a 3E conversion of Spelljammer in the a Dungeon magazine back in the day.

Heh, I think I still have a copy of that somewhere. But there was something in addition to that.

[Trafalgar]

Well it'd be great if a 3pp did Dark Sun stuff, except they can't... So maybe the appropriate thing for WotC to do if they don't want to take the risk is to put Dark Sun under OGL/CC and let people go with it.

Or, alternately, ignoring WotC it'd be interesting to ask how close you could get to Dark Sun in spirit without treading on specific IP - is there actually enough space to make a spiritual successor to Dark Sun, or would it flop for the people who do want Dark Sun because it'd be missing particular iconic things or would seem like a soft-ball version of the original setting somehow in stepping cautiously around the IP boundaries...

How hard would it be to make a Dark Sun clone that doesn't suck and doesn't infringe?

I guess this is the core issue. I get it that WOTC doesn't want to publish Dark Sun, but why not let a 3rd Party Publisher do it?

For example, I don't see anything in Dark Sun being more problematic than the Red Wizards of Thay in Forgotten Realms. I believe 5e source books on Thay have been published by DMs Guild.

[NichG]

Depends I guess what you consider DS' core identity, not like WoTC has a monopoly on post-apocalyptic worlds run by warlords. Also, if that's what you want, there are other games out there that offer such content. Next time I run GURPs I'm thinking of doing something along those lines (with a bit more of a sci-fi lost tech thing maybe).

I think you'd need at minimum:

- An ongoing environmental catastrophe linked to sources of personal power that are being used by the forces that be
- Survival pressures from that catastrophe leading to extreme wildlife as well as strange adaptations in the sentients of the setting.
- Something like psionics. It's just so central to DS' distinction from other properties
- Immortal tyrants who are also way above the normal power scale for the setting
- All of the nasty stuff that goes with that plus the harsh world - slavery, genocide, people mistreating those they can gain power over as they themselves are subjected to stresses and pressures from above
- Resistance movements and hidden settlements outside of 'civilization' in response to the above. Guerilla style of play for those supporting said movements.
- Strong survival aspects and scarcity compared to normal RPG elements - gear that breaks, thirst and starvation risks that are actually credible, much more limited economic scale, core resources are totally absent (e.g. no metal)
- No beneficent divine forces, planar access, etc - and some very grimdark reason for that. No 'this life is bad, but we can look forward to the afterlife' to ruin the tone.

[Segev]

If you can pitch them a scenario where the revenue they'd gain from publishing Dark Sun would be worth all the work it would take them to pre-empt and navigate any potential PR issues they might run into doing so, be my guest. (Also, what Brookshw said.)

:shrug: If I were WotC and wanted to have my cake and eat it to in this regard, I would quietly license it to a third party that showed passion for Dark Sun as a product, and ask them to follow similar guidelines to OGL content, just with the quiet acknowledgement that this is legal for them to do with this IP that isn't in the OGL. Though, personally, I would just publish it, myself, if I were WotC. Probably when also releasing it as an M:tG source for new cards. But I am less concerned than you believe they are about this damaging their reputation somehow.


I also, if I were a Dark Sun fan, would not want to see WotC publish it while WotC is still in the same mindset that OneD&D and TCE seem to be coming from. I am sure I would be disappointed at best by what came out of it.

[Luccan]

To be clear, I think WotC would screw up addressing the sensitive aspects of Dark Sun like they recently screwed up Hadozee or how they made Van Richten and his tiger less heroic than intended in the original version of Curse of Strahd. Not that they might not give Elves a Dex bonus. It would actually make more sense for some racial bonuses in Dark Sun to be cultural more than physical, since running far and fast is specifically something the elven nomads do as a result of being nomads as much as a result of being elves. Though I also don't think they care about certain mechanics enough to do the setting justice.

Although I thought Dark Sun got the third party treatment as well during 3.X, didn't it?

[Psyren]

Or, alternately, ignoring WotC it'd be interesting to ask how close you could get to Dark Sun in spirit without treading on specific IP - is there actually enough space to make a spiritual successor to Dark Sun, or would it flop for the people who do want Dark Sun because it'd be missing particular iconic things or would seem like a soft-ball version of the original setting somehow in stepping cautiously around the IP boundaries...

How hard would it be to make a Dark Sun clone that doesn't suck and doesn't infringe?

I'd say you can manage the broad strokes just fine using Ravenloft. Create a campaign set in Hazlan, take a few artistic liberties and you're most of the way there.

[skyth]

Yeah, not sure why Ravenloft wouldn't be problematic while Dark Sun would be ..

[NichG]

Yeah, not sure why Ravenloft wouldn't be problematic while Dark Sun would be ..

I mean the conclusion of the last few pages of argument was that Dark Sun isn't problematic - or at least no more so than baseline D&D - but it is (apparently to WotC at least) unprofitable and potentially of high risk to the specific image they may be trying to create.

As far as 'using Ravenloft for Dark Sun', it does seem wildly different in themes to me. Some elements (inescapable grimdark world, powerful tyrants) are there, but the survivalist/environmental catastrophe stuff isn't exactly there nor the local adaptations to harsh conditions or general guerilla/revolutionary aspects. Gothic horror is also a lot more personal than the sort of civilization vs environment aspects of Dark Sun.

[Psyren]

Yeah, not sure why Ravenloft wouldn't be problematic while Dark Sun would be ..

Hazlan has the "arcane magic despoiled the land" and "immoral/amoral sorcerer kings who don't care about the consequences of their experiments are in charge" themes. And of course, it's in Ravenloft, so there's also the whole "divine magic is unreliable / you can't be totally sure what is actually answering your prayers" bit - not quite the same as Dark Sun there, but not like FR either.

What it doesn't have, to my knowledge, are themes like widespread slavery, or mechanics like banning given races and classes outright. Again though, I don't actually know which elements Kyle was considering "problematic."

[Keltest]

Hazlan has the "arcane magic despoiled the land" and "immoral/amoral sorcerer kings who don't care about the consequences of their experiments are in charge" themes. And of course, it's in Ravenloft, so there's also the whole "divine magic is unreliable / you can't be totally sure what is actually answering your prayers" bit - not quite the same as Dark Sun there, but not like FR either.

What it doesn't have, to my knowledge, are themes like widespread slavery, or mechanics like banning given races and classes outright. Again though, I don't actually know which elements Kyle was considering "problematic."

Those are setting elements, which are distinct from themes. It doesnt necessarily affect your overall point, but I think its an important distinction to make now before people start talking past each other.

[warty goblin]

It isn't really like if you engage with the setting much, Ye Olde Fantasy Realme is exactly a beacon of shining respect for human rights. All those peasants? Probably serfs, legally bound to the land, and with significant owed labor to the (hereditary, unelected and unaccountable) manoral lord. Not fully enslaved, but not in anything like a free position.

Nor is having outright slavery in a setting necessarily problematic, or even controversial. Blue Rose, the chirpiest, most intensely inclusive RPG you care to imagine, has slavery, and makes no bones about it being cruel and abusive. But it's what the bad guys do, and you are not the bad guys. Your goal is to stop the bad guys, which is hard because they are also very powerful.

[Psyren]

Those are setting elements, which are distinct from themes. It doesnt necessarily affect your overall point, but I think its an important distinction to make now before people start talking past each other.

I'm aware - "broad strokes" was meant to cover both.

It isn't really like if you engage with the setting much, Ye Olde Fantasy Realme is exactly a beacon of shining respect for human rights. All those peasants? Probably serfs, legally bound to the land, and with significant owed labor to the (hereditary, unelected and unaccountable) manoral lord. Not fully enslaved, but not in anything like a free position.

Nor is having outright slavery in a setting necessarily problematic, or even controversial. Blue Rose, the chirpiest, most intensely inclusive RPG you care to imagine, has slavery, and makes no bones about it being cruel and abusive. But it's what the bad guys do, and you are not the bad guys. Your goal is to stop the bad guys, which is hard because they are also very powerful.

Just labelling something "bad guys do it" is not enough of a fig leaf for the Fortune 500 company to avoid backlash for printing it.

[NichG]

Just labelling something "bad guys do it" is not enough of a fig leaf for the Fortune 500 company to avoid backlash for printing it.

No longer talking about WotC doing it though, but rather a third party publisher.

[Corvus]

I can see why wotc isn't too keen on returning to Dark Sun - it's a setting where oppressive oligarchs abuse the common folk in an effort to keep power and don't care about the societal or ecological damage they cause in doing so, while the players are largely rebels against the system trying to bring them down.

Probably hits a bit to close to home for them.

[warty goblin]

Just labelling something "bad guys do it" is not enough of a fig leaf for the Fortune 500 company to avoid backlash for printing it.

Movie studios, game publishers, and fiction publishers do this literally all the time.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you can pitch them a scenario where the revenue they'd gain from publishing Dark Sun would be worth all the work it would take them to pre-empt and navigate any potential PR issues they might run into doing so, be my guest.

To stop beating around the bush: WotC is gutless.
Dark Sun is a post apocalyptic world, as are many other settings (such as Numenera, D&D 4e, etc). It has a core concept (particularly as regards the preserver/defiler contrast in magic) that makes for a unique feel. They've messed with other settings (like Dragonlance) and still pressed on.

[Psyren]

Movie studios, game publishers, and fiction publishers do this literally all the time.

And most of them aren't trying to build brands centered around inclusivity and fun for all ages. I doubt Disney would publish Dark Sun either for example.

...Look, I'm not saying WotC will never revisit Dark Sun ever again, but I can understand them wanting to be cautious too, especially in light of some of their more recent missteps.

No longer talking about WotC doing it though, but rather a third party publisher.

The best ways to enable that are (a) for someone to do a legally-distinct retroclone of some kind, or (b) convince WotC to allow DS content in DM's Guild. We can't advise on the former here, but for the latter, here is the contact form.

To stop beating around the bush: WotC is gutless.

*shrug*

I'm sure they're as devastated as I am.

[NichG]

The best ways to enable that are (a) for someone to do a legally-distinct retroclone of some kind, or (b) convince WotC to allow DS content in DM's Guild. We can't advise on the former here, but for the latter, here is the contact form.

We can't advise on questions of legality, but I see no reason why we can't speculate on how to construct a setting that looks and feels like Dark Sun but in which we do not use WotC IP to construct that speculative setting.

[Brookshw]

We can't advise on questions of legality, but I see no reason why we can't speculate on how to construct a setting that looks and feels like Dark Sun but in which we do not use WotC IP to construct that speculative setting.

Because things like substantial similarity would (or, at least, should) be a part of that conversation to establish if it's free of WoTC IP - not that such could be definitively established here - and that analysis and conversation is strongly in the legal discussion sphere.

As an alternative, maybe take as a premise what you would add to the Barsoom series (which large parts of are in the public domain, and were a strong inspiration for DS), and ask what you'd like to add to them a fun setting for D&D. Leave discussions of DS out of it entirely.

[Keltest]

And most of them aren't trying to build brands centered around inclusivity and fun for all ages. I doubt Disney would publish Dark Sun either for example.

They had no problem publishing a setting where the main villain was a genocidal maniac who kidnapped and gaslit people into being his minions while torturing them and violating their bodily autonomy.

Or buying a brand where one of the main characters was a slave, and where slavery explicitly existed as a problem beyond what was immediately solvable.

[NichG]

Because things like substantial similarity would (or, at least, should) be a part of that conversation to establish if it's free of WoTC IP - not that such could be definitively established here - and that analysis and conversation is strongly in the legal discussion sphere.

As an alternative, maybe take as a premise what you would add to the Barsoom series (which large parts of are in the public domain, and were a strong inspiration for DS), and ask what you'd like to add to them a fun setting for D&D. Leave discussions of DS out of it entirely.

The important point of the discussion for me is whether or not Dark Sun's feel would be preservable without it's details, because that determines whether or not WotC's decision effectively says 'no one shall be allowed to play in DS because we said its problematic' as opposed to 'we don't want to touch it ourselves because of the risk', and that determines what sort of response it deserves from its customers who do want to play in DS. This is also relevant to Segev's point about not trusting WotC to do a good job with Dark Sun, because if there's no alternative then that's a much trickier situation than if for example a 3pp made the Numenera to Dark Sun's Planescape. I don't think actually talking about whether a particular combination of factors would be legal or advising people to take specific actions with regards to publication is actually necessary to get at that point.

[Brookshw]

The important point of the discussion for me is whether or not Dark Sun's feel would be preservable without it's details, because that determines whether or not WotC's decision effectively says 'no one shall be allowed to play in DS because we said its problematic' as opposed to 'we don't want to touch it ourselves because of the risk', and that determines what sort of response it deserves from its customers who do want to play in DS. This is also relevant to Segev's point about not trusting WotC to do a good job with Dark Sun, because if there's no alternative then that's a much trickier situation than if for example a 3pp made the Numenera to Dark Sun's Planescape. I don't think actually talking about whether a particular combination of factors would be legal or advising people to take specific actions with regards to publication is actually necessary to get at that point.

WoTC doesn't control people's home games, people can do whatever they want at their tables. Most 2e DS material is still available through DriveThru, it's not too hard to use in 5e if you want to do a bit of conversion, you can even find a lot of DS monsters already converted in SJ.

I'm not willing to join this line of discussion further