TO: Reptile, a Warblade (20) of the Perfect Order

[Gruftzwerg]

Welcome to my newest build showcase. This time we'll optimize a single class Warblade to a degree that will make it look like you are the boss encounter and not your victims.
I recently discovered how broken the refresh ability of a Warblade is. It's not as broken as you can theoretically abuse the refresh method of a Crusader, but it comes out the box without any further build resources needed. Thus I wanted to showcase it. I also always wanted to make a warblade 20 build, due to the Dual Stance capstone. While it comes very late and will probably barely see any actual play time, I really like the idea of having 2 stances at the same time. And as it seems, now is the time to unleash this build.
Further note that this build is also optimized for UMD. And once you get the stuff you want, you will dominate most fights with lil room to fight you back.
I don't recommend to play such an optimized build, but if you insist pls check with your DM first.

Reptile, a Warblade of the Perfect Order

Jack's career started when he was doing military duty as a young man. A local organization calling themselves "the Perfect Order" always requites new members from those who do their military duty. Jack barely caught their interest, but somehow still ended up joining em. The crux is that "the Perfect Order" are perfectionist (lawful good organization) who all are exceptional in some way or another. They are kinda like special talent scouts. And while Jack was always good at most things in life (most ability scores 14), he was never really exceptional in anything. The sole thing exceptional was that he somehow managed to barely pass all test (you need to sole pass one category), while it would have been better if he would have just past a single text exceptional (e.g either exceptional swordsmanship talent, or to show exceptional talent for magic, or exceptional social skill..).
Everyone who joins "the Perfect Order" is expected to find a mentor (can also be someone outside the order) and begin an apprenticeship. It doesn't matter what kind of mentor you find/take. The sole requirement is that the mentor needs to be a "lawful good" person and inspire the apprentice to become the most perfect version of himself possible.
Well.. there is already a person who managed to do that. His uncle Mercul (spellcaster), one of the royal mages, always liked to spend some time with him when on family gatherings. He always told him that life is about learning more about yourself and that it is never to late to learn something new. Be it mental learning, or learning with your body or even your heart. Anything and everything is training & learning.
The other apprentices in the Perfect Order bully Jack for taking a mage as mentor when he barely manages to "Use Magic Items" and while having no magic at all by himself. And all that while still following a military career. But Jack is fine with his choices. He believes that his mentor will guide him to become the most perfect version of himself and that one day he will become a perfect soldier in the name of the Perfect Order.




Race: Human


Alignment: Lawful Good

STR: 14
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 12
CHA: 14

Skills: As said, this is an UMD build and thus it gets the maximum ranks possible. Since we have 4+INT skillpoints we can max many skills. But sadly most of em will only see situational use in this build. Concentration is important since we can use it instead of Save rolls later on.

LVL	Class	BAB	For	Ref	Wil	Skills	Feats	Class Features
1st	Warblade	+1	+2	+0	+0	Balance: 4 Concentration: 4 Diplomacy: 4 Intimidate: 4 Jump: 4 Tumble: 4 UMD: 2 (points from Apprentice)	Martial Study: Crusader's Strike (Devoted Spirit) Apprentice	Battle Clarity (Reflex saves) Weapon Aptitude
2nd	Warblade	+2	+3	+0	+0	Balance: 5 Concentration: 5 Intimidate: 5 Jump: 5 Tumble: 5 UMD: 3		Uncanny Dodge
3rd	Warblade	+3	+3	+1	+1	Balance: 6 Concentration: 6 Jump: 6 Tumble: 6 UMD: 5 (+2)	Martial Study: Burning Blade (Desert Wind)	Battle Ardor (Critical Confirmation)
4th	Warblade	+4	+4	+1	+1	Balance: 7 Concentration: 7 Jump: 7 Tumble: 7 UMD: 7 (+2)
5th	Warblade	+5	+4	+1	+1	Balance: 8 Concentrate: 8 Intimidate: 6 Jump: 8 Tumble: 8 UMD: 8	Improved Initiative	Bonus Feat
6th	Warblade	+6	+5	+2	+2	Balance: 9 Concentrate: 9 Jump: 9 Tumble: 9 UMD: 9*	Martial Stance: Flame's Blessing (Desert Wind)	Improved Uncanny Dodge
7th	Warblade	+7	+5	+2	+2	Balance: 10 Concentrate: 10 Jump: 10 Tumble: 10 UMD: 10*		Battle Cunning (Damage)
8th	Warblade	+8	+6	+2	+2	Balance: 11 Concentrate: 11 Jump: 11 Tumble: 11 UMD: 11*
9th	Warblade	+9	+6	+3	+3	Balance: 12 Concentrate: 12 Jump: 12 Tumble: 12 UMD: 12*	Martial Study: Law Bearer (Devoted Spirit) Diehard	Bonus Feat
10th	Warblade	+10	+7	+3	+3	Balance: 13 Concentrate: 13 Jump: 13 Tumble: 13 UMD: 13*
11th	Warblade	+11	+7	+3	+3	Balance: 14 Concentrate: 14 Jump: 14 Tumble: 14 UMD: 14*		Battle Skill (Opposed Checks)
12th	Warblade	+12	+8	+4	+4	Balance: 15 Concentrate: 15 Jump: 15 Tumble: 15 UMD: 15*	Martial Stance: Aura of Perfect Order (Devoted Spirit)
13th	Warblade	+13	+8	+4	+4	Balance: 16 Concentrate: 16 Jump: 16 Tumble: 16 UMD: 16*		Bonus Feat
14th	Warblade	+14	+9	+4	+4	Balance: 17 Concentrate: 17 Jump: 17 Tumble: 17 UMD: 17*
15th	Warblade	+15	+9	+5	+5	Balance: 18 Concentrate: 18 Jump: 18 Tumble: 18 UMD: 18*	Frozen Wild Shape	Battle Mastery (Attacks of Opportunity)
16th	Warblade	+16	+10	+5	+5	Balance: 19 Concentrate: 19 Jump: 19 Tumble: 19 UMD: 19*
17th	Warblade	+17	+10	+5	+5	Balance: 20 Concentrate: 20 Jump: 20 Tumble: 20 UMD: 20*	Iron Will	Bonus Feat
18th	Warblade	+18	+11	+6	+6	Balance: 21 Concentrate: 21 Jump: 21 Tumble: 21 UMD: 21*	Martial Stance: Immortal Fortitude (Devoted Spirit)
19th	Warblade	+19	+11	+6	+6	Balance: 22 Concentrate: 22 Jump: 22 Tumble: 22 UMD: 22*
20th	Warblade	+20	+12	+6	+6	Balance: 23 Concentrate: 23 Jump: 23 Tumble: 23 UMD: 23*		Stance Mastery

Spoiler: Warblade Recovery Rules

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Lets break down Warblade's refreshing method:

You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with your weapon). You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance while you are recovering your expended maneuvers, but you can remain in a stance in which you began your turn.

I'll start with the second sentence here for a better explanation.

"You cannot initiate a maneuver/stance while you are recovering your maneuvers."

Note that the limitation is not generally set on your entire turn or even the entire round. The limitation is sole for the duration of the "recovery". Which brings us to the question:

"When does the refreshing start, and when does it end?"

We initiate the "recovery" by using the required "swift" action. And it ends by an immediately followed "melee attack". (Alternatively you can end it by taking a standard action to do nothing, but we don't care for that here.)
Outside from that, we are still free to initiate maneuvers within our turn.

Lets check the options we have:

Swift Action Maneuvers:
Not possible since we already need the swift action for refreshing.

Standard Action Maneuvers:
Here it depends what your standard action does. Generally speaking, for most "normal" standard action attacks it doesn't work. While we are free to use "free/swift actions" at any point during the turn and within other action, imho there is a limit to that.
Take casting a standard action spell and a swift action spell as an example where I think that you can't use the swift action spell while casting the standard action spell. It would break the flow of the standard action spell's cast. Using a swift spell before or after the standard action spell should be no problem.
To get back to Warblade's recovery, imho you can't use a swift action within a single attack (standard action != an attack). And since most standard action attacks are sole a single attack, most don't work.
Interestingly, there are standard action maneuvers that allow for multiple attacks, bypassing the normal rules for multiple attacks and full attack (Specific Trumps General). These maneuvers on the other hand should work. "Steel Wind" a 1st lvl maneuver strike is one of em as example. It lets you do 2 attacks on an standard action. Here we have 2 attacks within a standard action an can argue that between those attacks we activate the crusader's recovery method by using the required swift action. Then we can proceed with the required immediate melee attack to finish the recovery. So it's a case by case basis for standard action abilities, but let me say that most of em don't work imho.

Move Action Maneuvers: (there are only 2: Shadow Stride and Order Forged from Chaos; both not part of this build)
These work, since you can use your swift action between your movement action (for your maneuver) and your standard action (for the recovery attack or to do nothing). But there are sole 2 options here as said (and those are not part of this build), but I wanted to mention it for completenesses sake.

Full-Round Action Maneuvers:
Here we hit the Jackpot^^. A full-round action is initiated at the beginning of your turn and allows you to take a swift action at any point during your turn. If you have multiple attacks, use the swift action before the last attack. Since we didn't "initiate" any maneuvers while recovering, this interaction should be legal. We sole profited from a maneuver and didn't initiate it while recovering.


As it seems, as long as we can squeeze in a swift action before an "Attack", but after initiating a maneuver, we can refresh it within the same turn. Note that this also blocks the option to take any other swift action. And if we should use any Immediate action (the build has a few), we can't refresh the next turn due to the lack of a Swift Action.
It's not as flexible as the so called "Idiot Crusader" in his maneuver choices, but it comes out of the box and without any special build investments.
Thus the build tries to focus on maneuvers that allows this special interaction (to squeeze in legally a swift action before an attack).

Spoiler: Maneuvers & Stances:

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Name of the Maneuver or Stance (* = Martial Study/Stance)
gained @LVL
Maneuver or Stance

Name	@LVL	M	S	School	Maneuver Lvl & Details
*Crusader's Strike*	1	X		Devoted Spirit	1st; strike that heals an ally for 1d6 +1/Initiatorlvl
Leading the Charge	1		X	White Raven	1st; aura that increases charge dmg by +1/Initiatorlvl
Sudden Leap	1	X		Tiger Claw	1st; swift action jump/movement
Moment of Perfect Mind	1	X		Diamond Mind	1st; Concentration check instead of a Will save
Steel Wind	1	X		Iron Heart	1st; standard action to make 2 attacks
Leading the Attack	2	X		White Raven	1st; if you hit the foe, allies get a +4 bonus to hit until next turn
Battle Leader's Charge	3	X		White Raven	2nd; +10 dmg on a charge
*Burning Blade*	3	X		Desert Wind	1st; +1d6 +1/Initiatorlvl fire dmg to a weapons attacks until end of turn.
Bolstring Voice	4		X	White Raven	1st; +2 will save and +4 against Fear
Leading the Attack Action Before Thought	4	X		Diamond Mind	2nd; Concentration check instead of Reflex save
Soaring Raptor Strike	5	X		Tiger Claw	3rd; Attack larger foe from above for extra damage
*Flame's Blessing*	6		X	Desert Wind	1st: gives fire resistance based on Tumble ranks. and even Immunity after reaching 19+ ranks.
Mithral Tornado	7	X		Iron Heart	4th; Attack all adjacent enemies, make separate attacks at full BAB+2
Steel Wind Bounding Assault	8	X		Diamond Mind	4th; Double move (doesn't need to be straight) + attack; counts as Charge
*Law Bearer*	9	X		Devoted Spirit	charge a "chaotic" foe to get +8 attack and +4d6 dmg. Further get +5 to AC and Saves for 1 round
Pouncing Charge	9	X		Tiger Claw	5h; Pounce
Press the Advantage	10		X	White Raven	5th; stance that gives +5ft when taking a 5ft step
Sudden Leap Iron Heart Focus	10	X		Iron Heart	5th; Reroll a save
War Leader's Charge	11	X		White Raven	6th; Charge attack gets +35 dmg
*Aura of Perfect Order*	12		X	Devoted Spirit	6th; treat D20 rolls as 11.
Battle Leader's Charge Iron Heart Endurance	12	X		Iron Heart	Heal twice your character lvl as swift action. Can be abused in downimes to heal every other turn (1st turn - heal; 2nd turn - revover with standard action and do nothing; 3rd turn - repeat 1st turn;...). Healing caps at half max HP.
Iron Heart Surge	13	X		Iron Heart	3rd; cancel any effect with a duration longer than 1 round that annoys you
Diamond Defense	15	X		Diamond Mind	8th; Initiatorlevel as bonus on a single save
Stance of Aclarity	16		X	Diamond Mind	8th; free "Counter" maneuver each round! Important to be able to use one of the Panic-button maneuvers and still have your "swift action" when its our turn and we want to refresh all maneuvers.
Mithral Tornado Adamantine Hurricane	16	X		Iron Heart	8th; Attack all adjecent enemies twice with +4 bonus on attack each
War Master's Charge	17	X		White Raven	9th; charge with +50 bonus dmg, allies get a free charge on the same target; stunned for 1 round if at least another ally hits together with you; no save
*Immortal Fortitude*	18		X	Devoted Spirit	8th; If damage would drop you to zero or below, you can instead make a Fortitude save against the negative HP you would theoretically have, to prevent any damage that would drop you below 1HP.
Pouncing Charge Mind over Body	18	X		Diamond Mind	3rd; Concentration check instead of Fortitude save
Time Stands Still	19	X		Diamond Mind	9th; make 2 Full-Attacks
Soaring Raptor Strike White Raven Hammer	20	X		White Raven	8th; make a single attack; +6d6 dmg and automatically stuns without save

Spoiler: 1-5

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Starting from lvl 1 we can abuse warblade's recovery with Steel Wind. Due to its 2 attacks we can use the swift action recovery between those attacks.
Leading the Charge is an aura that enhances the charge dmg of all allies, which should ensure the upper hand for your party in most fights. Combined with Battle Leader's Charge, which adds another +10 charge dmg, we get a devastating charge once per encounter.
Burning Blade adds some fire dmg on our attacks, which can be used situational when fire/elemental dmg is needed (e.g. foe with regeneration).
Moment of Perfect Mind helps with our low Will saves if the situation demands it.
Action before Tought does the same for our low Reflex saves.
Crusader Strike provides healing to recover from chip damage and stay at high/full HP.

Improved Initiative ensures together with DEX 14 that we should often be at the top of the Initiative chain.

Apprentice gives Jack access to UMD which he will keep at max ranks, since he doesn't have any other option to access magic. This is in preparation for the later levels.

Spoiler: 6-10

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Mithral Tornado is basically a Whirlwind Attack at +2BAB as a standard action! Thus we can move before/after it and it can be abused with warblade's recovery method every turn. A good option if we can't charge and/or have multiple enemies that we want to attack.
Bounding Assault allows Jack to use a double move and lets the attack at the end count as charge. This allows to charge from any position. Even if your target is already in your face (run back and forth).
Law Bearer is a special charge against chaotic foes. It provides a bonus to attack and damage and if it hits +5 to AC and Saves for 1 round. A niche option but still kinda interesting.
And while we are at "Saves", Iron Heart Focus lets you reroll one! This is pure gold since it's basically a free "get out of jail" joker against magic, trap and special abilities that you have to face. Out of combat it is almost always ready, since you can refresh it always the next round by using a swift and standard action to do nothing. Perfect for a dungeon full of traps^^.

Spoiler: 11-15

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"Aura of Perfect Order" is an important key for our ability to UMD. Remind you that I allways say that normally sole Warlocks can abuse "magic items with ongoing effects" (due to Take-10), because those items require a UMD roll 1/hour. And on a natural rolled 1, we can't UMD the item for the next 24h! Well... Aura of Perfect Order lets you treat any D20 roll as a rolled 11. With this, we can also UMD with ongoing effects without any issues. You can find more detailes in the UMD Magic Items section.

The most important/interesting item to get is a Wild Shape Amulet. This gives Jack access to the Fleshraker form which earns him the nickname "Reptile". In this form we get "Pounce", which enables Jack to refresh maneuvers on any "charge maneuver" he uses. Perfect to abuse War Leader's Charge which provides charge/pounce attacks each with a flat +35 dmg bonus (effectively a 2h PA at -17BAB)! Jack's career as Ubercharger has now begun.

Diamond Defense gives a hefty boost (+Initiatorlvl) to a single save, which further improves our already good magical defenses (and is important for a lategame combo. see 16-20).
If we should still somehow should get caught by an annoying effect, Iron Heart Surge will get rid of it as long as it has a duration of more than 1 round (and you have a standard action for the maneuver).

Iron Heart Endurance is basically healing at will (use the standard action recovery every 2nd turn) outside of combat and ensures that we start every combat at least with half of our max HP.

Finally we get to the sole item dependent feat of the build: Frozen Wild Shape
This enables Reptile to turn into a Cyro-Hydra. If there is enough space for it, this is the ultimate combat form. 12 head that can always attack, even after moving! Who needs "pounce" if you can have Hydra heads/bites. This form also allows for easy maneuver recovery as long as we don't spend the swift action for something else. Combine with War Leader's Charge (+35dmg on charge) and kill just anything in reach. Use a wand of "Enhance Wild Shape" to also get all EX and SU abilities. This gives Reptile 22 fasthealing! As said at the beginning, "who is the real boss encounter here?"^^

Spoiler: 16-20

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With hitting 19 ranks in Tumble, the "Flame's Blessing" stance now provides Fire Immunity. This can be important for the Cyro-Hydra form due to its fire vulnerability.

Immortal Fortitude is a stance that enables Jack to ignore death from HP dmg, if he manages a save roll against his "theoretical negative HP" as "Toughness DC". Remind you of all the Save boost, Mind over Body to make concentration checks instead, reroll saves... and not to forget the 22 Fast Healing (as cyro-hydra) together with Diehard. Reptile is really though to bring down.

Adamantine Hurricane is basically a double Whirlwind Attack at +4 BAB. Maybe not so interesting for thy cyro-hydra, but nice for the Fleshraker if the space is really tight and you have lots of enemies to attack.

War Master's Charge gives a flat +50 dmg bonus on a charge and provides nearby allies with a free charge on the same target. This will end most fights after a single charge from Reptile (and his allies).

Time Stands Still gives you 2 Full-Attacks for the price of one! If that ain't a big deal I dunno^^. Sole downside is that it blocks charge/pounce. Thus it depends on the situation (and gear as Ubercharger) what will be more beneficial.

When we reach the final level of Warblade, we finally get to use 2 stances at the same time. Depending on the situation, there are many options. Let me name the most interesting combos imho:

Leading the Charge + Stance of Alacrity: Extra dmg for charging/pouncing and free "counter" to boost saves. This imho the base combination that will be used most. Consistent high damage and the "free counters" (to boost saves mostly) is a good mix between offense and defense. And with the free counters we can still recover our maneuvers with our regular swift action every turn.

Flame's Blessing + Immortal Fortitude: When at low HP in cyro-hydra form and the enemy has (potentiually) fire dmg.

Aura of Perfect Order + Immortal Fortitude: To always roll an 11 for the Fortitude saves. No 5% chance to fail and fixed results: (@lvl 20 in Cyro-Hydra form)"rolled 11" +12 base Fort. + 5 CON = 28
Dmg that would bring him down to -28HP would sole reduce him to 1.
If we add Diamond Defense on top (+20 to a save), he could drop theoretically to -48HP and still come out with 1 HP.
Which means in conclusion: If you can't do 50+ dmg (in 3.5 terms: "Massive Damage") in a single instance/attack, you have no chance to bring him down with HP dmg. And that assumes that you bring him down 1 before that attack. Reminding you of the +22 Fast Healing the Cyro-Hydra has. This set the minimum damage needed for the "final round" to kill him to "72". Nothing impossible at lvl 20 (especially for PC), but not every NPC/Monster can deal that amount of damage in a single round.

Spoiler: UMD & Magic Items

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I'll sole mention some build specific items here. For a general magic item guide pls look elsewhere. Assume the normal stuff (mainstat boosts, saves, option to fly, mind blank, true sight..) for this build to counter the normal downsides of mundane characters.

Wild Shape Amulet + Necklace of Natural Attack (+ 5 + valorous)
As said in the build, this is the most important item of the build and should be bought at lvl 12 when it becomes legal due to wealth balance. While the build can work without it, it greatly enhances it.
With UMD we can get both effects of the amulet since they don't exclude it other. With UMD we can pretend to be a druid of X.th lvl (UMD roll -20) and get the +4 effective lvls on top.
We will mostly use this to be in Fleshraker form for the most time until we unlock the Cyro-Hydra form. The other options are more situational (consult a wild shape handbook for that, if you are interested).
Later add the effect of a Necklace of Natural attacks to get "valorous" which gives double dmg on a charge/pounce. If your DM doesn't allow to combine items, get a permanent Greater Magic Fang at least.

Wand: Enhance Wild Shape
This enables EX and SU abilities for Wild Shape and is a must have after we get the amulet.

Monk's Tattoo
Another ongoing magic item that I have already often showcased in my warlock builds. We use it mainly for the extra movement speed (the Hyda sole has a base speed of 20ft..).

(Armor of your choice) +X; +2 Energy Immunity; + 4 Soulfire Armor
Death Ward is always important for a melee character and the bracers are a good option to get it (since we can't wear normal armor).
With "Flame's Blessing" we can be immune to Fire . Cyro-Hydra provides Cold immunity. And our armor special ability (energy Immunity) can give another type of energy (e.g. acid to ensure that the Hydra heads will always grow back).
If you are wealthy, you can also invest into specifc resistances on your armor (those have a flat price).

We reached the end of the build. We are looking at a single class Warblade that will dominate most encounters with ease. Finally Jack has become "exceptional" I guess^^. Over the top dmg and defenses should ensure that we survive even the hardest encounters.

I checked for errors, but as always I hope for your keen eyes to double check it^^
Imho there shouldn't be any big errors, but since I had to adjust several parts of the build multiple times, I can't be sure if something broke along the way..

I hope you all enjoyed this build and as always I would appreciate any kind of feedback. Just leave a comment any tell me what is on your mind^^

[holbita]

Given that you already gave your view on the Warblade recovery mechanic... I will just assume that that's how it has been accepted in your table and move on, even though my RAW side really wants to let you have it.

Now the rest of the build is pretty straightforward with the exception of one thing that really grinds my gears...

Cryohydra.

a) Rules: Frozen Wild Shape does not allow you to change form outside your size restrictions. Did I miss how you are getting to huge size forms? Because I believe it, as it is, you should not be able to do it.

b) Action Economy: To me, Warblades are all about using standard action maneuvers or Time Stands Still, with anything else just being utility options. Given that on your table you will not even need to have that slow turn of recovering... isn't cryohydra a completely different, and not complementary, strategy? It's going to force you to choose between using your maneuvers or using multiple attacks and it doesn't even work well with Time Stands Still. Not to talk about weapon enhancements and the rest. And it doesn't help you with what is your weak point.. ranged combat. So I really don't see the benefit of going this way in this build. Am I missing something?

Don't get me wrong... the build gets a lot of style points and I love the use of Wild Shape Amulet + Wild Feats on a non druid, but since you started the thread with TO: I feel that I should comment on this.

It seems to me like two separate builds that would better work on 2 different characters.

[Gruftzwerg]

Given that you already gave your view on the Warblade recovery mechanic... I will just assume that that's how it has been accepted in your table and move on, even though my RAW side really wants to let you have it.

I don't intend to play this monstrosity^^
This is as said sole a TO build showcase for the sake of TO fun, nothing else. So don't you worry. I play mostly at low optimization tables like the most of us here.
Regarding the mechanic. I just stumbled about the mechanic upon rereading it. Imho it seems to be RAW. I don't see any indicator that you should be blocked for the entire turn from initiating maneuvers. If you see any RAW concerns pls let me know. But I'm very confident about this so far.

Now the rest of the build is pretty straightforward with the exception of one thing that really grinds my gears...

Cryohydra.

a) Rules: Frozen Wild Shape does not allow you to change form outside your size restrictions. Did I miss how you are getting to huge size forms? Because I believe it, as it is, you should not be able to do it.

b) Action Economy: To me, Warblades are all about using standard action maneuvers or Time Stands Still, with anything else just being utility options. Given that on your table you will not even need to have that slow turn of recovering... isn't cryohydra a completely different, and not complementary, strategy? It's going to force you to choose between using your maneuvers or using multiple attacks and it doesn't even work well with Time Stands Still. Not to talk about weapon enhancements and the rest. And it doesn't help you with what is your weak point.. ranged combat. So I really don't see the benefit of going this way in this build. Am I missing something?

Don't get me wrong... the build gets a lot of style points and I love the use of Wild Shape Amulet + Wild Feats on a non druid, but since you started the thread with TO: I feel that I should comment on this.

It seems to me like two separate builds that would better work on 2 different characters.

a) The Wild Shape Amulet gives Jack effectively the ability of a X.th lvl druid (X = UMD -20 +4). As such you get the regular improvements for the "Wild Shape" ability (not the Elemental Shape ability, since that is a different ability that is sole based on Wild Shape). This includes the size improvements you get as higher lvl druid for Wild Shape.

b) The Action Economy can be a bit irritating at first glance on this build. Not everything can be combined together, but that's fine since they fit different purposes. Take Mithral Tornado/Adamantine Hurricane as examples. They both exclude charge/pounce, but they are situational still very useful. But for the most time the build will try to charge/pounce. This is also true for the Cyro-Hydra form, which effectively also has pounce due to its special bite attacks. As such, you can use e.g. War Master's Charge to profit from the +50 flat dmg on all 12 attacks. As said in the rules section, I tried to focus on maneuvers that would be refreshable each turn, and not on those maneuvers that you maybe would normally take. I did go mainly for "charge maneuvers", since those can be altered by both the Fleshraker's Pounce ability and the Hydra's special bite attack. The Action Economy is actually improved by this interaction.

Ranged Combat:
Yeah, the build doesn't have much ranged options (except the Cyro-Hydra breath maybe), but that was never the main here. And as "mundane melee fighter" you always need to "gear" for ranged combat. The same is true for this build. Monk's Tattoo will provide the build with the needed movementspeed to reach those nasty ranged foes you'll face. The same can be said about flying enemies. At some point you will and should invest into an item to fly as melee fighter to fight those flying enemies back. Further, the option to fly allows for diving charge/pounce attacks for double dmg (triple with valorous weapon special ability).

I'm happy to see that you seem to have enjoyed the fluff. Thx for the feedback

[Gruftzwerg]

Mini Update:

- deleted all evidence of Dragonscale Husk since Warblade lacks Heavy Armor..
- changed Armor of Bracer into (Armor of your choice) in the gear section
- added a calculation for how much damage we can take with a specific stance combo (see 16-20)
- exchanged a Stance: Wolf Pack Tactics >> Stance of Alacrity

The last point is an important little change. I realized that our "swift action" would be blocked, if we would use counters as immediate action. This would break the recover every turn flow of the build to much imho.

But happily Stance of Alacrity comes to our rescue. It gives us a free "counter" per round to use and thus safes our "swift action" for recovery. Imho this is a big deal for this build, thus the changes. (updated the stance combos in "16-20" accordingly)

____________________________

I hope you like the lil change and still hope for some more feedback. But I guess pure warblade (20) doesn't sound that interesting..?^^


edit: btw, sorry for the late update, but I'm very short on time the past days..

[pabelfly]

Pretty sure you don't qualify for Law Bearer at Level 9. Your Initiator Level for Crusader manoeuvres is not the same as your Initiator Level for Warblade manoeuvres. Same for several other Crusader manoeuvres you try to pick up after that. And since you can't get them, ditch your first-level Crusader strike.

Flame's Blessing stance - I like this combo, but if you're doing an UMD build, wouldn't you just be using a wand to cast Protection from Energy or Energy Immunity on yourself?

Now you've got four free feats for your Wildshape/Warblade build. Six if you can ditch Flame's Blessing.

Since you can ditch Silverbrow Human, you can go regular Human (and shift over a stat point to STR) which is good for slightly boosting damage and accuracy at 4th level instead of 8th which helps before you can do Wildshape shenanigans.

[Chronos]

Pretty sure you don't qualify for Law Bearer at Level 9. Your Initiator Level for Crusader manoeuvres is not the same as your Initiator Level for Warblade manoeuvres. Same for several other Crusader manoeuvres you try to pick up after that. And since you can't get them, ditch your first-level Crusader strike.

I think that, when a class that already has maneuvers takes Martial Study, they're adding the maneuver to their class list. So Reptile isn't taking Law Bearer as a crusader maneuver; he's taking it as a warblade maneuver (despite Devoted Spirit not usually being a warblade school).

The bigger problem, I think, is the wildshape amulet, because UMD doesn't work like that. UMD is a binary yes or no to whether you can use an item; it does not set the level you use to determine an item's effects. Druids get Wild Shape at level 5, so if your UMD result is 25 or greater, you can successfully use the amulet. Roll (or "roll", with Stance of Perfect Order) a 34 on your UMD check? Great, you can activate any item which requires a class feature druids get at level 14 or less. Wildshape is such a feature, so you can use the amulet, and that "yes" is all that the roll gets you. Now that you have that "yes", you look at the effect of the item: It increases your effective wildshape level by 4. I.e., it increases it from 0 to 4. Which unfortunately isn't enough to do anything.

[pabelfly]

I'll agree to disagree about the manoeuvres from other classes. Seems to me that they'd be treated as if you had no initiator levels.

It increases your effective wildshape level by 4. I.e., it increases it from 0 to 4. Which unfortunately isn't enough to do anything.

If you have no wildshape levels, it treats you as a 5th-level Druid. I don't know what exciting forms you want to get as the equivalent of a fifth-level Druid at level 14 or 15 though.

[Gruftzwerg]

Pretty sure you don't qualify for Law Bearer at Level 9. Your Initiator Level for Crusader manoeuvres is not the same as your Initiator Level for Warblade manoeuvres. Same for several other Crusader manoeuvres you try to pick up after that. And since you can't get them, ditch your first-level Crusader strike.

Flame's Blessing stance - I like this combo, but if you're doing an UMD build, wouldn't you just be using a wand to cast Protection from Energy or Energy Immunity on yourself?

Now you've got four free feats for your Wildshape/Warblade build. Six if you can ditch Flame's Blessing.

Since you can ditch Silverbrow Human, you can go regular Human (and shift over a stat point to STR) which is good for slightly boosting damage and accuracy at 4th level instead of 8th which helps before you can do Wildshape shenanigans.

1. First note that "Initiatorlevel" is not part of the "Requirements:". These are 2 "separate defined" things.
2. Martial Study only demands you to fulfill the requirements: bypassing the general rules to pick up maneuvers (which normally do require Initiatorlvl).
3. Martial Study is specific how your Initiatorlevel for those maneuvers work. If you are a martial maneuver class, you get to use your full Initiator lvl. So if you wanna argue that you still need the Initiatorlevel "to use the maneuver", we qualify for that.

Flame's Blessing + Energy Immunity
I am already using "Energy Immunity" as armor special ability (and yeah you could use wands/scrolls). But you can sole have 1 instance of that spell on you effecting you. The stacking rules for "spells" limit you to this. And since I also wanted Acid Immunity (the other energy type that works against the Cyro-Hydra's heads), it was a simple decision to get fire immunity as a stance.

I think that, when a class that already has maneuvers takes Martial Study, they're adding the maneuver to their class list. So Reptile isn't taking Law Bearer as a crusader maneuver; he's taking it as a warblade maneuver (despite Devoted Spirit not usually being a warblade school).

The bigger problem, I think, is the wildshape amulet, because UMD doesn't work like that. UMD is a binary yes or no to whether you can use an item; it does not set the level you use to determine an item's effects. Druids get Wild Shape at level 5, so if your UMD result is 25 or greater, you can successfully use the amulet. Roll (or "roll", with Stance of Perfect Order) a 34 on your UMD check? Great, you can activate any item which requires a class feature druids get at level 14 or less. Wildshape is such a feature, so you can use the amulet, and that "yes" is all that the roll gets you. Now that you have that "yes", you look at the effect of the item: It increases your effective wildshape level by 4. I.e., it increases it from 0 to 4. Which unfortunately isn't enough to do anything.

There is sole a single mechanical step (1/hour), where you provide the magic item with stats. And the item behaves according to that.

Think about "aligned weapons" or items with "race limitations".
How do they work (with UMD), if there is later another check as you say (which is not mentioned by the rules!!!) that realizes that you faked that stat??
Or "How does an evil character UMD a Holy weapon?". If there's another check as you say, it wouldn't work.

The magic item has to work according to the faked stat. Otherwise you make UMD dysfunctional. And as said, by the rules there is sole 1 step where you provide the item with stats. Not multiple as you assume. The sole step is just repeated 1/hour.

Which means, our effective Wild Shape lvl is = "effective rolled 11" + "UMD -20" + "4 from the item" = "UMD modifier -5"

I'll agree to disagree about the manoeuvres from other classes. Seems to me that they'd be treated as if you had no initiator levels.



If you have no wildshape levels, it treats you as a 5th-level Druid. I don't know what exciting forms you want to get as the equivalent of a fifth-level Druid at level 14 or 15 though.

Initiator levels, see above.


Note that the Wild Shape amulet has 2 effects.
1) +4 effective Wild Shape lvl
2) if you don't have it, you get effectively Wild Shape as a 5th lvl druid
There is no indicator that you sole get either one of the effects by the item's text. (Because a normal druid could only get either one sorry, misremembered it. Actually even a 1st lvl druid would effectively get to Wild Shape as a 9th lvl druid here).

As UMD user, we can profit from both: gaining the missing ability (2) and the +4 boost (1). And the items works with the provided fake stat as said above.

____________________

Thx for you feedback and interest. I hope I could clear up your doubts. If not let me now^^

Further feedback on the build is still welcome =)

[Chronos]

A UMD check has a DC, and you either succeed at that DC, or you don't. If there were some item that required you to have, say, elemental wild shape, then the DC would be set based on that being a druid level 16 ability. This, though, just cares about having wild shape, a 5th level ability, and so the DC is based on it being a 5th level ability. And you either succeed on that check, or you don't. If, due to bonuses, you get a 100 on your skill check, the result of that is still just "succeed".

Even if that works, though, this isn't a warblade build. It's a UMD trick that anyone at all can use. You do have a couple of maneuvers that enhance the trick, like Stance of Perfect Order to "take 11" on the UMD checks, and Flame's Blessing to patch up the cryohydra's fire vulnerability, but they're not even warblade maneuvers. And they're not even really core to the trick: As long as you can get a +24 to your UMD check (there are a lot of ways to do that), it doesn't matter if you ever roll a 1.

[Gruftzwerg]

A UMD check has a DC, and you either succeed at that DC, or you don't. If there were some item that required you to have, say, elemental wild shape, then the DC would be set based on that being a druid level 16 ability. This, though, just cares about having wild shape, a 5th level ability, and so the DC is based on it being a 5th level ability. And you either succeed on that check, or you don't. If, due to bonuses, you get a 100 on your skill check, the result of that is still just "succeed".

Have a look at UMD:

Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

You roll "UMD -20" to determine your effective level in the emulated class (feature). It's not a fixed DC as you assume. As such it scales.

(Mini Build Chance:
Btw, I just noticed that Reptile would lack 2 UMD points at lvl 15 to get "huge" forms and access the Cyro-Hydra. Since I was still thinking about what to do with the planned change from Silverbrow to regular Human, I changed the Stats a lil bit. INT (skill point remain unchanged due to human extra skill points) and WIS got dropped by 2 points in favor of CHA 14 (+2). This way Reptile can access the Cyro-Hydra form at lvl 15 when he picks up Frozen Wild Shape.)

Even if that works, though, this isn't a warblade build. It's a UMD trick that anyone at all can use. You do have a couple of maneuvers that enhance the trick, like Stance of Perfect Order to "take 11" on the UMD checks, and Flame's Blessing to patch up the cryohydra's fire vulnerability, but they're not even warblade maneuvers. And they're not even really core to the trick: As long as you can get a +24 to your UMD check (there are a lot of ways to do that), it doesn't matter if you ever roll a 1.

Kinda yes and kinda no..^^ Let me explain it.

Yeah it is a UMD trick. But not anyone can really make use of "ongoing magic item effects" via UMD. Because those have the UMD rule that you need to provide the UMD check 1/hour. And that is a problem for most (UMD) characters. Since UMD has the specific clause that if you roll a "natural 1" (5% chance per roll), you block your access to the item for the next 24h (24 hours, not the morning next day!). With a 5% chance to fail and 24 checks per day, the odds are very high that you will most likely roll that "natural 1" at least once per day. Which means that a regular UMD user can't equip an ongoing effect forever if he wants to use it. He can at best equip it when he needs it and hope that he won't fail the roll.
The sole exception to this is, if you can somehow bypass the roll. Warlocks can do that with "Deceive Item" which allows em to "Take-10" on UMD. Martial Classes (Crusader, Swordsage & Warblade) can access "Aura of Perfect Order" (6th) and have the sufficient Initiatorlevel to use the stance. Other classes lack the Initiator level (11required, but a non martial adept gets a maximum of 10 at lvl 20) to use the stance.
As such, this is not something anyone can do. Yeah it is UMD specific, but due to the nature of UMD itself, it is not really available for everybody.

[loky1109]

Or you can buy two or three same items.

[Gruftzwerg]

Or you can buy two or three same items.

Sorry but I don't get to what you are referring to here? Would you like to explain what you mean here?

edit: Ok now I get it. Depends how the DM interprets:

Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can’t try to activate that item again for 24 hours.

The rule ain't precise enough and allows for the following interpretations:

a) you can't try to activate that (type of) item again for 24 hours.

or

b) you can't try to activate that (specific) item again for 24 hours.


Option a) wouldn't alow it when the DM block the entire item type.

Option b) would allow to exchange the items. But it's very expensive to do so. 3 amulets (3x 40k). And I doubt that you can exchange a Monk's Tattoo (provides monk movement speed; the Monk's Belt does not have that). Imho not so reliably. It requires that the DM rules in your favor in the first place and you still need to keep track of the rolls and have to change gear every time.
edit2: Another downside of buying multiple items is, that it takes you multiple levels to buy that item multiple times (if you buy the first item as early as possible due to WBL). This has the side effect that it remains unsafe for multiple levels.

[loky1109]

Yeah, 3 is maybe overkill.
2 should be enough. You have less that 6% probability...
Well, no. I actually can't calculate probability right now.

[Chronos]

Quoth Gruftzwerg:


You roll "UMD -20" to determine your effective level in the emulated class (feature). It's not a fixed DC as you assume. As such it scales.

But it's still only to determine whether you can use the item or not. If an item requires you to have a class ability of a certain level, that's how you determine whether you have the class ability of that level. But determining whether you meet the requirement is all it does.

Yeah it is a UMD trick. But not anyone can really make use of "ongoing magic item effects" via UMD. Because those have the UMD rule that you need to provide the UMD check 1/hour. And that is a problem for most (UMD) characters. Since UMD has the specific clause that if you roll a "natural 1" (5% chance per roll), you block your access to the item for the next 24h (24 hours, not the morning next day!).

No, it says if you fail and roll a natural 1, you can't use it again for 24 hours. Skill checks don't automatically fail on a natural 1 the way attacks and saves do, so if you have a high enough bonus, a natural 1 is no problem. And there are lots and lots of ways to get skill bonuses high enough.

Oh, and one other point: Iron Heart Endurance doesn't ensure you start all fights at full HP. It only works if you're under half of your HP maximum.

[Gruftzwerg]

But it's still only to determine whether you can use the item or not. If an item requires you to have a class ability of a certain level, that's how you determine whether you have the class ability of that level. But determining whether you meet the requirement is all it does.

The item has to behave with the provided stat. There is no further check by the rules thereafter. Otherwise you would make UMD dysfunctional.

Lets assume an "evil" character, who wants to use a "holy" weapon:

A holy weapon is imbued with holy power. This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of evil alignment. It bestows one negative level on any evil creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the holy power upon their ammunition.

If I follow your assumption, then the evil character can sole activate the item, but still has to face all the downsides, which makes UMD dysfunctional.

But RAW doesn't involve a second check. There is sole one and the item has to work with the provided stat. If it is an ongoing item the provided stat counts for an hour, where you need to make the next check.
There is sole 1 mechanical step where you provide the stat by RAW. If you wanna argue about that, provide a rule quote where the 2nd check you are talking about is made, and explain how you prevent "emulating alignment" from becoming dysfunctional.

No, it says if you fail and roll a natural 1, you can't use it again for 24 hours. Skill checks don't automatically fail on a natural 1 the way attacks and saves do, so if you have a high enough bonus, a natural 1 is no problem. And there are lots and lots of ways to get skill bonuses high enough.

Oh, and one other point: Iron Heart Endurance doesn't ensure you start all fights at full HP. It only works if you're under half of your HP maximum.

While you seem to be right on this, to UMD an ongoing classfeature we already need to "UMD-20". Then you want to qualify for Wild Shape, thus you need to get a final result of 5 after subtracting the 20. This requires you to have a +24 modifier to pass the minimum roll on a natural one. Imho not that easy to pass that roll every hour for the regular UMD user. It becomes still much later a reliable option compared to a warlock or Aura of Perfection user.

Thx for pointing out the error with IHE. I just used the short description there and forgot about that "half of max HP" limit. I will correct the error. Thx.

[JNAProductions]

The item has to behave with the provided stat. There is no further check by the rules thereafter. Otherwise you would make UMD dysfunctional.

Lets assume an "evil" character, who wants to use a "holy" weapon:

If I follow your assumption, then the evil character can sole activate the item, but still has to face all the downsides, which makes UMD dysfunctional.

But RAW doesn't involve a second check. There is sole one and the item has to work with the provided stat. If it is an ongoing item the provided stat counts for an hour, where you need to make the next check.
There is sole 1 mechanical step where you provide the stat by RAW. If you wanna argue about that, provide a rule quote where the 2nd check you are talking about is made, and explain how you prevent "emulating alignment" from becoming dysfunctional.





While you seem to be right on this, to UMD an ongoing classfeature we already need to "UMD-20". Then you want to qualify for Wild Shape, thus you need to get a final result of 5 after subtracting the 20. This requires you to have a +24 modifier to pass the minimum roll on a natural one. Imho not that easy to pass that roll every hour for the regular UMD user. It becomes still much later a reliable option compared to a warlock or Aura of Perfection user.

Thx for pointing out the error with IHE. I just used the short description there and forgot about that "half of max HP" limit. I will correct the error. Thx.

They didn't say anything about a second check.

If you need to emulate a 5th Level Druid to Wildshape, the DC is 25. There's no rule that says hitting a higher number does more-the DC and success or failure are flat.

[Gruftzwerg]

They didn't say anything about a second check.

If you need to emulate a 5th Level Druid to Wildshape, the DC is 25. There's no rule that says hitting a higher number does more-the DC and success or failure are flat.

Have a look at UMD-class feature:

In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20.

I just pointed out the 5th lvl needed to emulate the Wild Shape feature, because that is needed to profit from the first part of the amulet (+4 to effective Wild Shape lvls).

But UMD doesn't limit you to any minimum DC here. It lets you effectively emulate "UMD-20 class levels" in that class feature.

Example: UMD mod: +20 + Aura of Perfection (effectively rolled "11")
= "rolled" 11; +20 "UMD mod"; -20 UMD penalty +4 from amulet
= effectively 15 Wild Shape level

_________________
edit:
To showcase the DC needed to change into a 12 headed Cyro-Hydra:

- 12HD means we need to emulate 12 druid levels
- which sets the UMD DC to:
12 = UMD -20 +4 | +16
28 = UMD

To not fail on a natural 1 requires a +27 UMD modifier. That will take some levels and hard investment. Since you need to make the rolls 1/hour, using spells to boost the rolls is not an efficient solution. Most UMD users don't reach that modifier unless they fully max and boost CHA or have other special means to boost UMD (e.g. dip into Marshall).
Imho it is still valid to say that sole warlocks and Aura of Perfect Order users can reliably use "ongoing magic items" in general.

[JNAProductions]

This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

You missed that part of the rules.

[Chronos]

Example: UMD mod: +20 + Aura of Perfection (effectively rolled "11")
= "rolled" 11; +20 "UMD mod"; -20 UMD penalty +4 from amulet
= effectively 15 Wild Shape level

Which is high enough to qualify to use the amulet, so you can use it. That's all that the check tells you, whether you can use the item.

[redking]

Which is high enough to qualify to use the amulet, so you can use it. That's all that the check tells you, whether you can use the item.

The OP will not be moved by your observations, as he believes that a UMD check can provide abilities, such as some of the abilities of a 20th level monk, via UMD and monk's belt.

I agree with you, however. There is nothing to support interpretations of UMD being anything other than a pass/fail check.

[pabelfly]

The OP will not be moved by your observations, as he believes that a UMD check can provide abilities, such as some of the abilities of a 20th level monk, via UMD and monk's belt.

I agree with you, however. There is nothing to support interpretations of UMD being anything other than a pass/fail check.

If I was showing off an optimization concept, I'd generally go with a more conservative view, with the opinion that a potential viewer of my optimization efforts, or their DM, could completely disagree with my opinion. And I feel that the Wildshape item is worded such that the writers intended the player to get fifth-level wildshape out of it if they didn't have Wildshape already, rather than ninth, even if OP has interpreted it in such a way that he thinks he gets ninth-level wildshape.

[Gruftzwerg]

You missed that part of the rules.

&

Which is high enough to qualify to use the amulet, so you can use it. That's all that the check tells you, whether you can use the item.

&

The OP will not be moved by your observations, as he believes that a UMD check can provide abilities, such as some of the abilities of a 20th level monk, via UMD and monk's belt.

I agree with you, however. There is nothing to support interpretations of UMD being anything other than a pass/fail check.

Let's have a look at UMD:

You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

The first sentence gives you permission to "activate a magic item".

But the second sentence expands this by letting you "use a magic item as if you had.. XXX" .

And I already even showed that any other interpretation would leave parts of UMD dysfunctional. Have a look at the "Holy" special ability again:

...
It bestows one negative level on any evil creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded.
...

If an evil character uses a holy weapon via UMD, the weapon has to behave with the faked alignment!

Otherwise UMD wouldn't do anything here. The evil character can still "activate" a holy sword without UMD and face the downsides.
Under your interpretation (that the item behaves to your original stats) would cause just dysfunctions and doesn't represent the "second sentence" mentioned above: "use a magic item as if you had.. XXX"
Because "using a magic item" includes its effect. As such you also count for the effect as if you had XXX.

If you wanna argue against this, show me how your interpretation doesn't leave "rolling UMD for alignments" dysfunctional.

If I was showing off an optimization concept, I'd generally go with a more conservative view, with the opinion that a potential viewer of my optimization efforts, or their DM, could completely disagree with my opinion. And I feel that the Wildshape item is worded such that the writers intended the player to get fifth-level wildshape out of it if they didn't have Wildshape already, rather than ninth, even if OP has interpreted it in such a way that he thinks he gets ninth-level wildshape.

You can make Practical Optimization, and you can make Theoretical Optimization. This has an (TO) tag. Guess what the intention here was ;)

And while your assumptions about the designer's intention about the amulet might be true ( and I would have no problems in a real game if the DM sees it that way), the writers have failed to reflect that assumed intention by RAW.
Nowhere in the items description is an indicator that these effects exclude each other. And since both effects are ongoing, you automatically get the +4 boost as soon as you get the ability.
It's not TO's fault if RAW doesn't reflect the designer's intention. It's just that TO likes to abuse RAW. But here, I'm even unsure if this ain't even the designers intention. I mean just think at which lvl the item is available according to WBL? A 40k item can be earliest bought at lvl 12. This also means that you dedicate about half of your wealth to that item. And for that you get to Wild Shape as 9th lvl druid (e.g. assuming you just dipped into druid and have no UMD). Not game-breaking imho.
Sure combining the item with UMD makes it kinda "broken" if you wanna call it that way. But that is part of why UMD is considered OP/broken since the early days of 3.5

UMD is a scaling skill like any other skill where you can have ranks. And the more ranks you have, the better you get at the things you do. And while some skill checks have fixed DCs and outcomes (e.g. jump onto a table; a fixed height), other checks for the same skill may have no fixed DC and variable outcomes (e.g. jumping as far as you can).
The same goes for UMD: You can have checks like activating a wand or a scroll that have a fix DC to activate and thus produces fixed results, or you can have checks like emulating a class skill where your results scale accordingly to your UMD roll.
It's just that this makes UMD even more broken than most people are aware or would give UMD credit for. But that doesn't change the power of UMD by RAW. You are just having a hard time to accept the intended (and maybe broken from a balance point of view) extend of UMD.

[Chronos]

And while some skill checks have fixed DCs and outcomes (e.g. jump onto a table; a fixed height), other checks for the same skill may have no fixed DC and variable outcomes (e.g. jumping as far as you can).

You're arguing for one skill that doesn't work that way, by reference to another skill that doesn't work that way. The Jump skill doesn't let you attempt to "jump as far as you can". It lets you attempt to jump some distance that you choose, and then you either succeed or fail at that check. All skills work this way: Any given skill task has either a DC or an opposed check, and you either succeed or fail at beating that DC or opposed check.

[Gruftzwerg]

You're arguing for one skill that doesn't work that way, by reference to another skill that doesn't work that way. The Jump skill doesn't let you attempt to "jump as far as you can". It lets you attempt to jump some distance that you choose, and then you either succeed or fail at that check. All skills work this way: Any given skill task has either a DC or an opposed check, and you either succeed or fail at beating that DC or opposed check.

Ok, I just realize that 3.5 doesn't let you jump as far as you can (as in the Olympics as example), but sole fixed distances and always assumes that there is an edge to grab on at the end of all jumps for no reason..^^

But as you said there are opposed checks. If I move silently, there is no DC that I have to pass. I just have to roll as high as possible. Remind you that you still roll for Move Silently even if there is nobody to hear you. Otherwise the DM would be providing information that you don't have. (and a good DM rolls always when you try to sneak, to leave you uninformed if there are any enemies nearby or not.

Then we have "Knowledge checks":

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

And with "UMD -20" as roll for emulating a class feature, I don't see any set DC at all. You roll UMD and get a result like in the case for "Moving Silently". And that result counts as effective level in that class feature. And "effective class level in a class feature" can't have any fixed lvl to begin with. Because it has to leave room for scaling abilities that you emulate. Nowhere does it limit you to the minimum level at which the ability is gained. There is no rule text restricting you to this.

With so many different "roll mechanics" I don't see any reason to assume that "UMD -20" has to be a fixed DC. Imho it's the contrary. Like Knowledge checks, this (UMD class features) seems to produce better results the higher your roll is.

[redking]

With so many different "roll mechanics" I don't see any reason to assume that "UMD -20" has to be a fixed DC. Imho it's the contrary. Like Knowledge checks, this (UMD class features) seems to produce better results the higher your roll is.

You don't get any whether you beat the UMD DC by 1 or 1000, the outcome is the same. You get to use the device. You don't get this other stuff you talk about.

[JNAProductions]

You don't get any whether you beat the UMD DC by 1 or 1000, the outcome is the same. You get to use the device. You don't get this other stuff you talk about.

Yeah. Knowledge checks explicitly give more for every five you beat the DC by.
Because that’s not how checks normally work, by RAW, in 3.5.

[Gruftzwerg]

You don't get any whether you beat the UMD DC by 1 or 1000, the outcome is the same. You get to use the device. You don't get this other stuff you talk about.

&

Yeah. Knowledge checks explicitly give more for every five you beat the DC by.
Because that’s not how checks normally work, by RAW, in 3.5.

Where do the rules for "emulating a class feature" set any fix DC?
It lacks that rule component like other skill rolls have.

The sole information provided for the roll is "UMD -20".
It's similar to "move silently" and "hide" where there is no limit, nor a set DC for your roll. Neither of these have any fixed DC set for the roll. The outcome of your roll determines the effective lvl for that class feature. Assume an item that need "+2d6 sneak attack" to activate. You would need to emulate at least 3 or more levels in rogue to use such an item. Emulating more level and "+5d6 sneak attack" would work too.
And in the case of the amulet (and also monk's belt/tattoo), the effect of the item(s) scale with the effective lvls emulated for that class feature.

Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

UMD provides you with the following effect: "your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20"

I don't see any limitation to "the lowest level you would obtain the ability" as you are assuming without any rule text for your assumption.

The effective druid wild shape level is "UMD -20". That is what the rules says here. If you wanna claim otherwise, pls provide the rule quote you are basing your argument on.

edit: I did bold "effective level" to draw attention to it, since that is a very commonly used phrase in 3.5. I hope that I don't gonna need to explain the mechanics behind it.

[JNAProductions]

And again:

This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class.

You conveniently cut off before that line.

[Gruftzwerg]

And again:You conveniently cut off before that line.

As explained in the build: you get both effects of the Amulet. This includes:

If she has not yet acquired the ability, the amulet allows her the wild shape ability as a 5th lvl druid

1. We wanna activate the item and therefore roll "UMD -20"

2. The result provides the item with the effective druid levels for Wild Shape (to scale the first part of the amulet)

3. The item's effects kick in:

3a. The first effect lacks a target ability to increase

3b. The second effect checks "if you have yet acquired the ability" and if not gives it to you.

4. Since it is an ongoing item, both effects permanently try to affect you. It's not as if the first part of the effect vanished just because it couldn't find a valid target in the first moment. As soon as the item gives you the Wild Shape ability, the first effect of the item suddenly has a valid stat to increase and will affect it.

[redking]

It's not written anywhere that UMD can be used in this manner. You can guess that it's used this way, but it's not rules as written, nor is there even a hint that it is rules as intended. It doesn't even make sense that the UMD rules would work this way. Why would they? Why would a 30th level rogue be firing off staffs at 60+ CL when a 30th level wizard can only use the staff at 30 CL? In what setting or game does this makes sense?

EDIT: Here is another theoretical optimisation build that at least concedes that UMD may not be used this way.

NOTE: The use of UMD in the fashion described in this build is highly contested. For a non-contested version, please see the Child of Winter Flavor build below. The Original Flavor is being kept as is for historical purposes. :D

Enough rambling. Here is what you do: Use the Human Paragon’s adaptive learning to nab yourself UMD as a class skill for all your classes. As a marshal, grab Inspire Charisma. At level 20, you should have a charisma of 40 (18 base + 6 item + 5 level + 5 tome + 2 magic-blooded + 2 human paragon + 2 age).

So, your UMD check will be:
23 base
+ 15 cha
+ 15 inspire cha
+ 30 skill item (competence)
+ 23 item familiar
+ 2 Magical Aptitude
+ 3 Skill Focus
+ 4 Fang of Lolth
---------------
+115

Grab yourself a Staff of Gate. Use UMD to emulate spellcasting as if you were a (check-20) level cleric, and then summon as many Wasp Swarms (Fiend Folio, 4HD swarms of fine creatures) as possible. Don't go for contract service - you only need them for about a round, and then they will obey you forever thereafter

The minimum result on the UMD check is 115 + 1 – 20 = emulated caster level 96, or enough spellcasting power to summon and control 24 wasp swarms. The average result is 115 + 10 - 20 = 105, or 26 wasp swarms. The maximum result is 115 + 20 – 20 = 115, or 26 wasp swarms.

This doesn't work for the same reason that the OPs extrapolation of UMD doesn't work. If you have a build that is based on multiple contested interpretations of rules, then you might as well come up with builds based on arbitrary homebrew. It's effectively the same thing.