OOTS #1276 - The Discussion Thread

[Wintermoot]

Yes, I suppose if you are going to attribute perfect knowledge to Roy of all logical possibilities, including what everyone’s motivations and knowledge are, I guess we are done. And, as I pointed out, Julia has been compromised before and forced to send a message.

Not what I did, not what I posted. Have a good day.

[Fish]

Not what I did, not what I posted. Have a good day.

I see. How mature.

My point is that Roy doesn’t have to know who it is in order to decide not to give up tactical information. All he has to know is that Julia isn’t who she claims to be.

If you assume Roy must therefore automatically know it’s Eugene and nobody else, that doesn’t explain why Roy hasn’t called him out on it and may have lied to him. That’s as big an objection as the ones you raise about motivation, if not bigger, because we can’t see what Roy knows, but we can see what he does — and he doesn’t call out Eugene, and he does possibly lie about the situation.

In fact, Roy knows Eugene can scry from the cloud, so why would he lie to Eugene at all?

And even if yours is literally the only logical conclusion, there’s no guarantee Roy has got there yet.

But sure. Walk away.

[Precure]

If Roy really knows, when did he learn it? He was pretty sure it was his sister after the first visit, as he was trying to tell "her" about Eugene's deal. So, he has to discover it in these recent strips, and I don't see him being that good at hiding his feelings.

[Imgran]

Just gonna leave this here because I've "known" this for years IRL

The gate isn't in any of the dungeons. The dungeons are a distraction. It's under the statue of Kraagor the whole time.

Just had to say it. I'm probably hardly the first one .

[The MunchKING]

Just gonna leave this here because I've "known" this for years IRL

The gate isn't in any of the dungeons. The dungeons are a distraction. It's under the statue of Kraagor the whole time.

Just had to say it. I'm probably hardly the first one .

Yeah, and everyone pointed out that's the first place everyone would look because it was the first place EVERYONE thought of when they think it's not behind the doors. So not the best place to try and be sneaky about it.

Also we saw the statue got up and ran around, the rifts (and thus the Gates) were immobile unless EXTREMELY powerful magical rituals are used on them.

[dancrilis]

Good citation.

I'll point out though that OotS petitioners appear able to retain their feats and skills on the Mountain, at least to a degree, hence Horace and Roy easily mopping the floor with the evil invading party.

It is reasonable that Roy and Eugene are the same - but it is possible that they are not, Roy might view himself as a powerful fighter the same way Horace views himself as having a sword and so he is - but outside of the afterlife he might not be able to do as much as Eugene as Eugene is a apparently a ghost and according to himself not in the afterlife (so there might be a distinction between ghost and petitioner here).

I kindof wonder if Eugene cannot interfere as the laws of reality are stopping him, or if he cannot via the laws of the heavens stopping him - and if the second could he decide to break the rules and interfere directly at some point (for better or worse).

[Askthepizzaguy]

Point me to a single use of a magic item by the Order of the Stick in the last 1000 strips where the item is of narrative importance and wasn't shown being acquired.

Wrong person quoted?

[The MunchKING]

S/he only appeared after Belkar left and Roy was alone.

Now that I've looked at some more of the strips, considering everyone else who was still on deck the manifestation rules would have to have a very narrow zone it checked to consider him alone.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Point me to a single use of a magic item by the Order of the Stick in the last 1000 strips where the item is of narrative importance and wasn't shown being acquired.

I did not write this you "quoted" in post 200:

"Citation needed. Obviously "We haven't seen them get any items that we haven't seen them get" can't sanely be counted as evidence. Tautologous observation is tautologous. "

Citation needed. Obviously "We haven't seen them get any items that we haven't seen them get" can't sanely be counted as evidence. Tautologous observation is tautologous.

Looks like this was the author. Might want to check your quote Provengreil, the only way my name got attached to your quote would be you editing it, by accident or on purpose.

By accident would be replying to me, saying something, replying to this person, editing out the unneeded bits, and deleting way too much. It happens.

But it's good to acknowledge that it happened because it's generally considered rude to deliberately misattribute quotes.

[Precure]

Just gonna leave this here because I've "known" this for years IRL

The gate isn't in any of the dungeons. The dungeons are a distraction. It's under the statue of Kraagor the whole time.

Just had to say it. I'm probably hardly the first one .

I think we all secretly want it to be true.

[Peelee]

I think we all secretly want it to be true.

Not I. I think Kraagor's Gate was in our hearts the whole time.

[Tzardok]

Anybody else imagening a bunch of hearts exploding like the throne room of Azure City?

[Psyren]

Now that I've looked at some more of the strips, considering everyone else who was still on deck the manifestation rules would have to have a very narrow zone it checked to consider him alone.

I'd say it depends on how far Roy walked from his starting position. The comic doesn't make that clear. But it's possible that his starting point by the stairs was enough relative solitude, despite him ending up in a more public spot in time for Haley's return.

[bunsen_h]

Yes, but the important point is, a being in the afterlife forgets what is learned. Whether in life or after, the totality of one's being is shed over time.

At this point, nothing Eugene 'learns' matters, because by the time he makes it to the Inn Of Infinite One Night Stands he will have forgotten it.

It's still possible for Roy to remember what he experienced while outside the big gates. It would be plausible for Eugene to be changed there too.

Yeah, and everyone pointed out that's the first place everyone would look because it was the first place EVERYONE thought of when they think it's not behind the doors. So not the best place to try and be sneaky about it.

A plausible location would be: a sealed chamber within the mass of multidimensional stone, not connected to anything else, utterly undistinguished from any other location. Findable via coordinates relative to some well-secured marker, such as the base of the statue.

Anybody else imagening a bunch of hearts exploding like the throne room of Azure City?

And they say that his heart grew three sizes that day. Cardiac megalopathy is no joke.

[tanonx]

I feel like I've missed something regarding this "no change after death" idea, because the relevant bit of the quote tree a little ways back...

...you will never improve at any skill you know, never have a say in what happens in the world, never have children if you haven't already, never talk to anyone with a different point of view, never experience any real risk, never visit anywhere else, and never see any friends or family members who did not share the exact same shade of alignment as you...

...doesn't seem to say a thing about being unable to change. The later emphasis on not caring about how the afterlife works beyond the bare necessities also seems to preclude using planar technicalities to engineer family tragedy, as well. The only forced reverting Eugene will have in his future is reverting to raw energy, and that'll probably be a few hundred years or so at this rate.

A plausible location would be: a sealed chamber within the mass of multidimensional stone, not connected to anything else, utterly undistinguished from any other location. Findable via coordinates relative to some well-secured marker, such as the base of the statue.

It's a shame there's such an easily-identifiable base there still. I'd have a good laugh if it turned out Redcloak's momentary combat advantage quietly cost him the prize, just because there was no way to locate the Gate without the statue staying in place.

[Vikenlugaid]

Ok, so Roy was right at the end of #1192

[arimareiji]

With apologies to everyone who wants Roy to have known all along (which would be a nice twist):

I still don't think there's any way Roy could resist making a crack about not knowing Eugene was such a big fan of Sailor Moon, that now he magically transforms into a teenaged girl.

Yes he's grown more than Eugene ever will, and yes the deva told him to cut back on the snarky wisecracks, but that's just an inhuman level of temptation. (^_~)

(Not to mention that in the same comic where the deva told him that, we got the lovely "In lieu of Paradise, can I just get a picture of the exact look on his face?" crack.)

[bunsen_h]

What kind of INT would Bloodfeast have, anyway? What ability to comprehend that something weird has just happened, which should be reported to Belkar?

EDIT:

I still don't think there's any way Roy could resist making a crack about not knowing Eugene was such a big fan of Sailor Moon, that now he magically transforms into a teenaged girl.

Yes he's grown more than Eugene ever will, and yes the deva told him to cut back on the snarky wisecracks, but that's just an inhuman level of temptation. (^_~)

That's a tough call, considering Roy's own experience of being transformed into a woman. And his desperation that Eugene not find out about it.

[Tzardok]

Int scores of predatory dinosaurs are usually 2. Practically all lizards have 1. Baleful polymorph has a chance to reduce the victim's Int to the one of the new shape, so it's either 1 or 2, depending on wether Bloodfeast succeded on his Will save.

[Devils_Advocate]

It's always a silly mistake to assume that a word only has exactly one entirely precise meaning independent of usage and context. For starters in this case, "afterlife" can refer to a state of being or to a place. But these two different senses of the word are in turn themselves vague and ambiguous. Words, and indeed concepts, always are.

I seriously doubt that Celestia discounts a soul's actions after death, mostly because we're theoretically talking about a Lawful Good system here, not a Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil one, and I don't see it including that sort of loophole. But I don't think that overlooking Eugene's postmortem shenanigans would be sufficient for him to pass the review anyway. The evidence thus far suggests to me that he falls down at the "trying" part where Roy succeeded. That's a reasonably low bar that seeks to accommodate mortal fallibility, but in this case I doubt that it's low enough.

The Giant has carefully shown the party acquiring every new magic item they get, sans consumables.

Citation needed. Obviously "We haven't seen them get any items that we haven't seen them get" can't sanely be counted as evidence. Tautologous observation is tautologous.

Point me to a single use of a magic item by the Order of the Stick in the last 1000 strips where the item is of narrative importance and wasn't shown being acquired.

In addition to Peelee's and Jasdoif's replies, I will note that something never happening is not a guarantee that it will continue not to happen.

I don't think that anyone is going to use magic to talk to the lizard. Mostly because I don't think that Bloodfeast is going to identify this as something that anyone needs to be alerted to, and strange behavior on his part is the only plausible reason for anyone to suddenly speak with him. Well, in theory, we could learn that Belkar has been conversing with his pets for a while, like how we learned that Durkon regularly sends to his mother, but really I don't see the Giant saving that revelation for now.

Honestly, if anything I think that someone speaking with Bloodfeast is too plausible to work as a twist after Eugene specifically mentioned it. I imagine that Elan would agree with me. If someone suggests that something might happen and then it just happens, that's not very exciting. There needs to be more to it than that, at least.

Regardless, Belkar having a Wisdom-increasing item is less likely than the use of a wand as Jasdoif mentioned, and in that case I guess it falls under consumables anyway.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not I. I think Kraagor's Gate was in our hearts the whole time.

1. What gate?

2. Maybe Kraagor's Gate was the friends we met along the way.

[F.Harr]

Yeah, that won't come back to bite him.

I like to think he was also worried about hsi son. He just shows it badly.

[arimareiji]

That's a tough call, considering Roy's own experience of being transformed into a woman. And his desperation that Eugene not find out about it.

Quite a fair point; touché. And I'd bet Roy views it the same way, but personally I still think he would have a lot more justification for mockery... considering Roy was doing it to save someone else's life (not to risk ending the universe for the sake of a better afterlife). Plus maybe I'm a weirdo, but changing his own gender doesn't squick me out - whereas specifically impersonating his sister does.

Not to mention, I'm evil enough to think Aku----su* Tenshi Eugene-chan has a nice ring to it. (^_~)

* - 悪質 = malicious, devious. The dashes replace four letters which the filter misunderstands as a synonym for excrement (actually the middle of a word).

[Ranadiel]

2. Maybe Kraagor's Gate was the friends we met along the way.

Well the only friend we made along the way to Kraagor's Gate was Sunny...

*gasp* What if the gate was in the eye of the Beholder the entire time?

[KorvinStarmast]

Well the only friend we made along the way to Kraagor's Gate was Sunny...

*gasp* What if the gate was in the eye of the Beholder the entire time?

If Beauty can be in the eye of the beholder, why can't Gatey?

[bunsen_h]

Now I'm wondering if Eugene is so desperate to end his self-imposed lonely extraplanar existence that he'd be willing to betray the entire world. Which to me would be just about the ultimate in Chaotic Evil.