OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[Faldrath]

And come on Kraagor, really? A gauntlet where you don't actually have to fight anything? He should be forcing you to pile up the corpses on a scale or something!

Kraagor didn't build it, he was dead. Serini did it in his honor, so it's a pretty cute mixture, actually.

[Kish]

That's exactly my question, why has it been removed as an option?

Because "fed into a formula" or not, Serini wouldn't be worried about Roy knowing where the final dungeon was if she said something that vague to a human brain. This may assume more rationality than Serini has yet shown; she is disappointingly demonstrating herself to be more obsessed with secrecy than Girard ever was.

Alternatively: because if that was it, Serini would have had to say "I need to know what order they're going in to know that." Instead, as soon as she heard that they were searching all the dungeons, she locked on "no one else gets my information" rather than "I need more information."

[enq]

Why are you all missing the real highlight of this strip? The soup isn't done cooking, much less consumed, so Roy can in fact get rid of his mild hunger problem.

Also, that is a lot of soup.

[ManuelSacha]

Just hit them all.
Also known as "the Okuyasu Nijimura solution".

[selkiesmooth]

Blackwing just told Roy "they're numbering them and being extra methodical". That doesn't tell him where they are, where they started, or what search pattern they're using. Roy doesn't know that, so the Order and Serini don't know that... but she still knew giving an ETA would give away the answer. Any 'it's behind a specific door' ETA would be "it depends". Hence V's conclusion.

[Wintermoot]

Would the possibility that the gate is hidden by a mechanism similar to the combination lock on a locker or safe be covered by V's explanation of a "minimum quantity" but also the explanation for a scenario where a vague approximation of the estimated time would not reveal the solution? Let's say they had to finish gates 44, 27, 81 and 11 in that order without finishing any other gates in between. If they messed up the order, they've have to wait for them to repopulate again. That would have a minimum time (four dungeons, 28 or so minutes) but the average time it would take would be so impossibly long that it would be indiscernible from other random based solutions.

When pressed for a rough estimate, Serini implied she COULD provide it, she just wouldn't, because it would reveal the location of the entrance to the final dungeon.

If it was some kind of combination lock like that, Serini wouldn't be able to provide a rough estimate because she'd have no way to know when team evil would get around to looking through dungeons in that particular order. (centuries from now)

So it's removed by the implication that the current search pattern CAN lead to a rough estimate of time at all.

[Psyren]

That's exactly my question, why has it been removed as an option?

Because for providing an estimate to reveal the result if the door was a random one of the ones in the canyon, Serini would have to know exactly where Team Evil currently are and what end they started from. The fact that she could give an estimate that would reveal the result without knowing both two things, means that "all" is the only answer left.

[jaymiechan]

Guys, it is simple. Switchover happens, you have to search all the doors to access the "real" dungeon....The Order's in the real dungeon now, since searching all the doors will disable the switchover system. the "back roooms" are a part of the main dungeon. There's no way Serini would admit that to people not in the know, and there's no way she wouldn't retain easy access to the gate if necessary.

[danielxcutter]

Can I just say I love the protagonists being highly competent? Because I do.

Also, this means that while he couldn't have known it, MitD's tactic of painting extra doors would have prevented Reddie and Bones from ever finding the last Gate.

As O-Chul said, the gesture itself does matter more than than the actual effectiveness, but otherwise yes.

Why are you all missing the real highlight of this strip? The soup isn't done cooking, much less consumed, so Roy can in fact get rid of his mild hunger problem.

Also, that is a lot of soup.

Well, they have to feed ten humanoids and a growing beholder, plus there are spells to preserve food so leftovers aren't an issue.

And I did expect that they'd save a bowl for him, but this is better.

[Quinton250]

When pressed for a rough estimate, Serini implied she COULD provide it, she just wouldn't, because it would reveal the location of the entrance to the final dungeon.

If it was some kind of combination lock like that, Serini wouldn't be able to provide a rough estimate because she'd have no way to know when team evil would get around to looking through dungeons in that particular order. (centuries from now)

So it's removed by the implication that the current search pattern CAN lead to a rough estimate of time at all.

You are correct, I read the strip again and realize I misinterpreted V's definition for minimum.

[enq]

Guys, it is simple. Switchover happens, you have to search all the doors to access the "real" dungeon....The Order's in the real dungeon now, since searching all the doors will disable the switchover system. the "back roooms" are a part of the main dungeon. There's no way Serini would admit that to people not in the know, and there's no way she wouldn't retain easy access to the gate if necessary.

I agree with your last sentence. But why would she make it possible for others to make progress? Hey, you beat all the fake dungeons, so I'm going to reward you with access to the real one because...?

[SlashDash]

Guys, it is simple. Switchover happens, you have to search all the doors to access the "real" dungeon....The Order's in the real dungeon now, since searching all the doors will disable the switchover system. the "back roooms" are a part of the main dungeon. There's no way Serini would admit that to people not in the know, and there's no way she wouldn't retain easy access to the gate if necessary.

The problem is, the room they are in now, is connected to the internal tunnels - where Serini confronted the party after they bypassed the swapovers.

And Serini specifically said this is not the final dungeon (1258).

Her dialogue here seems to indicate there's another dungeon, just that the entrance won't be revealed until you go through all the doors -

But obviously Serini has another way in there. I doubt she would force herself to do that.

[danielxcutter]

I agree with your last sentence. But why would she make it possible for others to make progress? Hey, you beat all the fake dungeons, so I'm going to reward you with access to the real one because...?

Because the swapovers are barely even the first line of defense; "any competent rogue" (at least, one high-level enough to feasibly be a member of the party attempting to do so) could detect them. Also, this is as much of a tribute to his memory as much as it is actual protection.

[Peelee]

Guys, it is simple. Switchover happens, you have to search all the doors to access the "real" dungeon....The Order's in the real dungeon now, since searching all the doors will disable the switchover system. the "back roooms" are a part of the main dungeon. There's no way Serini would admit that to people not in the know, and there's no way she wouldn't retain easy access to the gate if necessary.

Doubtful. That's just another way to make it possible for someone to get lucky. Like the Order did almost immediately.

[enq]

Ah yes, that makes sense. It's outright hilarious how much time Team Evil is wasting by not having a rogue.

By the way, I judge that V was as awesome in this strip as Haley was in #1243.

[Faldrath]

Yeah, and Serini wouldn't be the last line of defense herself. I am now wondering, though... assuming the final dungeon has the most difficult monsters - what if it has another, grown up, MitD?

[Fyraltari]

I don't understand, going through all doors will reveal the location of the actual dungeon, or allow it to be accessed? How? And most importantly, why? Serini must have had to actually put in the effort of putting in place such a mechanism... To make it easier to reach the Gate? But the whole point is that the Scribblers didn't want anyone to get to the Gates.

[Peelee]

This is my question. I can't think of how this works at all.

I don't understand, going through all doors will reveal the location of the actual dungeon, or allow it to be accessed? How?

Am i really the only one reading the penultimate panel as the author telling us it doesn't matter? The whatsadoodle switch whixh automatically triggers whenever someone getd to the back toom a a dungeon, why not. The mechanism wont really change anything.

But the whole point is that the Scribblers didn't want anyone to get to the Gates.

Citation?

[danielxcutter]

This one seems like a "you must be this tall" thing. Also, the reason why the Scribblers didn't just bury the Gates under several hundred feet of solid bedrock is the possibility of requiring to access them for whatever reason, such as maintenance; I think that was brought up in Shojo's explanation.

[Leliel]

And thus, MiTD actually contributed!

Because his sabotage means that Team Evil has no idea what dungeons were cleared already, and thus, have to start over to ensure that nothing was missed.

Basically, whatever the clock is, he reset it.

[Wowlock]

I mean, yea, I guess that is a way to hide the final gate. But without MITD's interference, the evil team would've found it eventually, then. And now they are doing it faster and it gets the clock ticking a lot faster. After all, for a Lich, even for one as restless as Xykon, it would only be a matter of time and the 'Gauntlet' aspect wouldn't matter to him much since he loves killing stuff.

Honestly, a better way to hide to would've been to have the Final door be hidden behind the dungeon that is was just cleared, ever time. They mentioned the shell game. And a player can never win that game if the user knows sleight-of-hand. After all, if you can somehow hide the final gate in a system where it will just show up after all dungeons are cleared, you can make one where I gave as an example.

But, Barbarians, Gauntlets, yea that fits I guess.

[Quinton250]

Am i really the only one reading the penultimate panel as the author telling us it doesn't matter? The whatsadoodle switch whixh automatically triggers whenever someone getd to the back toom a a dungeon, why not. The mechanism wont really change anything.

Yes, the fact that they dismiss V so quickly after they brilliantly cracks the puzzle is indication that we shouldn't focus on it. It's either because it doesn't matter to the story, because there isn't an actual explanation, or both. It's both. It's definitely both. Now let's move on as we've been directed

[WindStruck]

I really don't follow any of this logic, considering Serini was just outright refusing to give any info at all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I recall people suggesting it might be a gauntlet, but i dont have any links to such.

FWIW, it's always been my assumption that this was the case - "you have to reach the end of every door" seems like the kind of think Kraagor would approve of. But like V said, there were only ever 3 possibilities, "it's behind a random door", "it's behind none of the doors" and "it's set so you have to complete all the doors". A 1 in 3 chance guess is barely something to brag about.

GW

[137beth]

Serini is not as smart as she thought she was. Good thinking V.

[Wintermoot]

I really don't follow any of this logic, considering Serini was just outright refusing to give any info at all.

Because, despite her protestations, she'd already revealed SO MUCH information.

Is the gate behind one of the doors. Asked and Answered. No.
Is the gate here, in the back stage. Asked and Answered. No.
Will they find the gate eventually by following this search strategy. Asked and Answered. Yes.
Can you provide an estimate of how long it will take. Asked and Answered. Yes.


Those four, seemingly innocuous answers are then used to deduce the answer she outright refuses to divulge.

She was hoisted by her own petard because she refused to just shut up and stop being badgered into giving little slips of information.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, and Serini wouldn't be the last line of defense herself. I am now wondering, though... assuming the final dungeon has the most difficult monsters - what if it has another, grown up, MitD?

In support of this, I'll point out that MitD's "much bigger" dad is still unaccounted for. I've long thought that MitD was alone in the jungle because his dad got poached by Serini's monster accumulation for her dungeon.

GW

[Peelee]

Because, despite her protestations, she'd already revealed SO MUCH information.

Is the gate behind one of the doors. Asked and Answered. No.
Is the gate here, in the back stage. Asked and Answered. No.
Will they find the gate eventually by following this search strategy. Asked and Answered. Yes.
Can you provide an estimate of how long it will take. Asked and Answered. Yes.


Those four, seemingly innocuous answers are then used to deduce the answer she outright refuses to divulge.

She was hoisted by her own petard because she refused to just shut up and stop being badgered into giving little slips of information.

Perfect example of "if you don't want to talk to the authorities, dont talk to the authorities. Not 'talk because you don't think youre giving them anything'. DON'T. TALK."

[danielxcutter]

Also, Serini considering them to be incompetent fools who wouldn't know the right end of a wand if it shot Fireballs into their crotch is kind of a recurring theme ever since she appeared.

[Wintermoot]

I recall people suggesting it might be a gauntlet, but i dont have any links to such.

I'm quite sure that in short order we'll have any number of people claim to have seen this coming without being able to provide any such posting to previous claims. With lots of "it was obvious" and "a child could have seen it" qualifiers.