OOTS #1277 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

["Reddie and Bones"?]

Probably around 70% of the time, if i say something funny, or nit funny but clearly intended to be, I'm just amusing myself.

Nicknames like that are defo in that big chunk of the pie.

[hroþila]

For someone who English is not his first language. Can you please explain what is the revelation in this comic?
To what kind of Gauntlet is Roy talking about.

I only know a Gauntlet is like a glove.

So I would appreciate for someone to help explain this comic.

Thanks!

As others have noted, it can mean an ordeal in general, but in this context I'd say it's specifically the gaming term which refers to a challenge where you must beat a series of discrete levels in a single run.

[faustin]

Did Serini ever explain who crafted the espacial displacements of the dungeon? I don't think even an epic rogue like her could have accomplished that on her own.

[Peelee]

Did Serini ever explain who crafted the espacial displacements of the dungeon? I don't think even an epic rogue like her could have accomplished that on her own.

Like Dorukan, she hired contractors.

[Doug Lampert]

As others have noted, it can mean an ordeal in general, but in this context I'd say it's specifically the gaming term which refers to a challenge where you must beat a series of discrete levels in a single run.

See this.

According to Wikipedia.
Guantlet the glove is from French.
Guantlet the ordeal is from Swedish, but the English pronounciation and spelling came to match the glove since that was a familiar term in English.

[bunsen_h]

Ok, how does this "explore every dungeon to get to the final one" works, in terms of implementation?

Is there some pressure plate in all of the dungeons (that resets after a day or two, otherwise the bugbears would have discovered the gate long ago), and when they are all pressed down the door appears?

One possibility is that each dungeon "tags" any person who enters it, by some magical mechanism. The final dungeon becomes available to someone who collects all of the "tags". It doesn't work if a bunch of different people collect some of the "tags" each.

The spell description for Magic Mouth is fairly specific about what it can't distinguish. The original AD&D version gave an example of how it could be used, and specified that it could distinguish age: "Speak only when an octogenarian female carrying a sack of groat clusters sits crosslegged within five feet." That example was removed at some point. But it has never been clear how the spell did its sensing, so it might be possible for a Magic Mouth to be triggered in the presence of "someone who has been through each of the dungeons". And it's possible to hide a dungeon behind a Magic Mouth -- for the opened lips to be a gateway. Or at least that's how I've used it, way back when.

But obviously Serini has another way in there. I doubt she would force herself to do that.

There's a possibility of a "back door", easy to access, ridiculously implausible to find. "Visit the following sequence of eight doors, in order, without interruption" would do it.

For someone who English is not his first language. Can you please explain what is the revelation in this comic?
To what kind of Gauntlet is Roy talking about.

I only know a Gauntlet is like a glove.

See what others have posted; but also, the "ordeal" version used to be spelled differently: "gantlet" rather than "gauntlet".

[Ruck]

I know someone made a similar argument against "What if Belkar and Serini are related". Was that you too? I like your sense for good story over random plot twists.

Probably, and thanks. I have an aversion to-- or more accurately, just find bad writing-- twists whose only justification is "wouldn't it be cool if" / "wouldn't it BLOW YOUR MIND if" and I don't think they're going to be part of this story.

It would continue to be character development. For example, if his dad is more of the kind of monster RC and Xykon where expecting (pre-lowered expectations). Assertive, for example. Or independent-minded, chaffing under Serini's imprisonment (and shortly thereafter under the Quinton's imprisonment). I wouldn't expect his dad to be the catalyst for the heel-face switch, just another stepping stone in his journey towards internalizing that his "friends" are not his friends.

Teal deer, more character development is more good.

GW

Well, that makes more sense.

That is almost always the case no matter what, because one generally stops looking when one finds what one is looking for…even when the last place you look happens to be the first place you look.

I think that's the joke.

[KorvinStarmast]

Perfect example of "if you don't want to talk to the authorities, dont talk to the authorities. Not 'talk because you don't think you're giving them anything'. DON'T. TALK."

And Serini, a rogue, ought to know that.

Why would they?

I was questioning the apparent presumption that they did {full clears}, not taking that position.

[Peelee]

And Serini, a rogue, ought to know that.

Sure, but class doesn't dictate personality. Her not opting for Shut The **** Up Friday seems like its based purely on her personality.

[Resileaf]

The only comic that shows the interior of a final room of the dungeons, 1261, only has one remarkable feature, the lamp-looking thing on the ceiling. It may be related to the mechanism that detects if someone has been in every dungeon beforehand.

Or it may not, it all depends on if the Giant thinks the mechanism is important or not. If it is, that thing would be my personal guess.

[HalfTangible]

Interesting.

So having a rogue in charge was itself the shell game.

[Wintermoot]

The only comic that shows the interior of a final room of the dungeons, 1261, only has one remarkable feature, the lamp-looking thing on the ceiling. It may be related to the mechanism that detects if someone has been in every dungeon beforehand.

Or it may not, it all depends on if the Giant thinks the mechanism is important or not. If it is, that thing would be my personal guess.

Oooh, good idea Resileaf!

[Peelee]

The only comic that shows the interior of a final room of the dungeons, 1261, only has one remarkable feature, the lamp-looking thing on the ceiling.

And a nifty design on the floor.

[Jasdoif]

Shut The **** Up Friday

Is that related to April Fool's Day?

[Resileaf]

And a nifty design on the floor.

Good eye, I did not notice that. It's also very unique.

[Psyren]

Doubtful. That's just another way to make it possible for someone to get lucky. Like the Order did almost immediately.

Agreed. I think the "Final Dungeon" will appear when all the others are cleared, and it's not the Backstage area where the Order are currently.

She also wouldn't risk bringing the paladins (and luring the Order) closer to the real Gate if she can avoid it, even just to amnesia them, because the entire premise of her distrust was that they have gotten every* other Gate they came across until now destroyed.

*except Lirian's

Am i really the only one reading the penultimate panel as the author telling us it doesn't matter? The whatsadoodle switch whixh automatically triggers whenever someone getd to the back toom a a dungeon, why not. The mechanism wont really change anything.

You're not, but I can still speculate

And thus, MiTD actually contributed!

Because his sabotage means that Team Evil has no idea what dungeons were cleared already, and thus, have to start over to ensure that nothing was missed.

Basically, whatever the clock is, he reset it.

It's possible it was being reset anyway - since the dungeons repopulate over time, it suggests that you have to clear them all within a certain window. (And there I go again, being curious about the clearing/Gate-revealing mechanism.)

[Peelee]

Is that related to April Fool's Day?

It is not. Its a video that explains why you dont talk (not nearly the best video, which is SFW and i plug every chance I get, but it has thr benefit of being significantly shorter than sitting in on an L1 class recording, and is a bit pithier).

[KorvinStarmast]

The only comic that shows the interior of a final room of the dungeons, 1261, only has one remarkable feature, the lamp-looking thing on the ceiling. It may be related to the mechanism that detects if someone has been in every dungeon beforehand.

A question that strip raises is the monster respawn method. Does Serini every now and again go forth and get some (which seems odd to me, with her general empathy for monsters) or is it some kind of gating mechanism that opens doors to where those kinds of monsters tend to live?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Interesting.

So having a rogue in charge was itself the shell game.

No, the caves is a shell game. A shell game is not a game in which you have a 1-in-x chance of guessing right. It is a game that makes you think you have a 1-in-x chance of guessing right, but where you in fact have 0 chance of guessing right, because it is not a guessing game at all. Which is what "pick a door, any door" is. And Xykon fell for it hook, line and sinker, since he thought it was all about "getting lucky" when in fact it was a "do all of them before the monster regenerate" or whatever. Had he kept with his original "1-2 doors a night" he'd never have beaten the dungeon, because it is a shell game and he was never going to "get lucky".

It is not. Its a video that explains why you dont talk.

Its a video that explains why you don't talk to the US police without a lawyer (the qualifier is kinda important, I feel. It is not a video recommending monastic vows of silence)

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Shut The **** Up Friday

Is that related to April Fool's Day?

It is not. Its a video....

I am disappointed this was not your autocorrect's doing. Or was it?!

---

It's possible it was being reset anyway - since the dungeons repopulate over time, it suggests that you have to clear them all within a certain window. (And there I go again, being curious about the clearing/Gate-revealing mechanism.)

I'd guess a dynamic timer; one for the whole complex that gets set to its maximum each time a back chamber is first reached, the entrance to the final room isn't revealed until all the (other?) back chambers have been reached, and when the timer expires everything goes back to the "unreached" state.

[HalfTangible]

No, the caves is a shell game. A shell game is not a game in which you have a 1-in-x chance of guessing right. It is a game that makes you think you have a 1-in-x chance of guessing right, but where you in fact have 0 chance of guessing right, because it is not a guessing game at all. Which is what "pick a door, any door" is. And Xykon fell for it hook, line and sinker, since he thought it was all about "getting lucky" when in fact it was a "do all of them before the monster regenerate" or whatever. Had he kept with his original "1-2 doors a night" he'd never have beaten the dungeon, because it is a shell game and he was never going to "get lucky".

I think you missed the point I was getting at. The main reason that the Order decided there might be a shell game involved here is that the dungeon is being overseen by a rogue. But it was in honor of a barbarian, so instead of a rogue's shell game, they got a barbarian's gauntlet.

First layer (dungeon at face value): Pick a door, any door.
Second layer (it's a rogue trying to trick you): Bypass the doors, because none of them are right.
"Real" layer (in honor of a barbarian): Actually you have to visit *every* door.

[Psepha]

Ohhhh, is THAT why V detected both conjuration and an element of divination magic when they examined the trap on the door? Is the divination magic there to monitor your progress through each dungeon and track when you've done each one?

And then when it registers you've done all the rest, the last one instead takes you to the final dungeon?

[mjasghar]

Also, this means that while he couldn't have known it, MitD's tactic of painting extra doors would have prevented Reddie and Bones from ever finding the last Gate.

Even more ironically the MitD would only have had to do it once - which wouldn’t have been caught out by Wrongeye.

[OvisCaedo]

Despite the quick dismissal of V's attempt to explain possible mechanisms, I feel like it will actually matter quite a bit. Not in any "how would you make this in the game rules" sense, but "What is the mechanism actually checking for" sense. Though I suppose the implication of impending doom means that whatever the check is, Team Evil will be satisfying it, and maybe it will never need to be delved into.

[Theris]

It took me a while to understand why Vaarsuvius' comment was supposed to be extremely smart. Then I realised I had read Serini's comment as '"They'll find the entrance in the final dungeon"...

[dancrilis]

I don't understand, going through all doors will reveal the location of the actual dungeon, or allow it to be accessed? How? And most importantly, why? Serini must have had to actually put in the effort of putting in place such a mechanism... To make it easier to reach the Gate? But the whole point is that the Scribblers didn't want anyone to get to the Gates.

Spoiler: SOD

Show

Lirian attached hers to creatures that could break it in case of an attack.

Dorukan had a self destruct on his, Soon had his in an (conceptually) easy to access place (and seemed isolated from the rest of his group), Girard had his with a whole family who likely knew where it was.

It is possible that all (or nearly all) wanted a method of accessing and destroying their gate in case of emergency and that Serini is no real different designed hers.

At the time they designed the gates they knew a few things a) how to find rifts b) bad guys wanted access to rifts.
It is possible they were worried about bad guys finding the rifts in the same manner (whatever manner that was 'detect rift?') they did (sealed and gated or not) and exploiting the gates.

[Yuki Akuma]

*except Lirian's

They didn't come across Lirian's gate at all, Psyren.

[Dellmarcus]

{scrubbed}

[Tzardok]

Ohhhh, is THAT why V detected both conjuration and an element of divination magic when they examined the trap on the door? Is the divination magic there to monitor your progress through each dungeon and track when you've done each one?

And then when it registers you've done all the rest, the last one instead takes you to the final dungeon?

Not necessarily. The conjuration thing is there to transport people (teleportation is a conjuration effect), the divination is propably there to show the "other side" of the portal. On the other hand, there could be another divinatory effect in there that does what you suggest.

[Jasdoif]

Not if "progression" is measured, for example, by reaching the last room of each tunnel. That would just mean Serini didn't think of someone summoning a creature with infinite force wall spells when she set up the progress check, or even if she did, she didn't know how to check "is every creature I put in the tunnel dead" and ahd to go with the approach she could build.

I would add that, presumably, the only reason the Gate area has an access point is because Serini wants to be able to access it; and she probably doesn't want to be killing all her monsters in that situation.