PC possessed by Ghost - what can they do?

[da newt]

If a PC is successfully possessed by a ghost, what can they actually do? In the past I've always seen the PC turn on the party and attack, but reading the actual stat block, It sounds like (RAW) the ghost can't do much of anything - no proficiencies, no knowledge, no class features. So no spell casting, no armor proff (DISADV on skills, saves, and attacks w/ DEX/ST), no weapon proff (no proff bonus for to hit), no extra attack, rage, SA, etc. So the only offensive thing a possessed PC can do is weapon attack once w/ DISADV and no proff to hit, right?

Or they can run for it, or jump into a pool of lava, or throw all thier weapons and loot into the pool of lava ... but turning on the party is a very low threat. RAW this really takes the teeth out of the ghost.


Possession (Recharge 6): One Humanoid that the ghost can see within 5 ft. of it must succeed on a DC 13 Charisma saving throw or be possessed by the ghost; the ghost then disappears, and the target is incapacitated and loses control of its body. The ghost now controls the body but doesn't deprive the target of awareness. The ghost can't be targeted by any Attack, spell, or other Effect, except ones that turn Undead, and it retains its Alignment, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and immunity to being charmed and frightened. It otherwise uses the possessed target's Statistics, but doesn't gain access to the target's knowledge, class Features, or Proficiencies.

[Segev]

Possess the fighter, and use weapons the ghost is proficient with. Have the ghost have features from life that it can use; an apprentice wizard Nbc's spellcasting would let the ghost use that.

But the big thing is that the ghost could do anything a doppelganger could do. It could wait until its host's turn at watch to engage in malefaction. It could have a goal that is its reason for remaining as a ghost rather than passing on, and steer the hist or the party yo fulfilling that.

Essentially, don't think of possession as a combat power. It is a plot power. Even if the party knows the ghost is possessing their friend, the ghost has a hostage. To keep the player involved, if he is a good sport, tell him the ghost's goals and personality let him RP the ghost possessing him.

[Unoriginal]

Possess the fighter, and use weapons the ghost is proficient with. Have the ghost have features from life that it can use; an apprentice wizard Nbc's spellcasting would let the ghost use that.

But the big thing is that the ghost could do anything a doppelganger could do. It could wait until its host's turn at watch to engage in malefaction. It could have a goal that is its reason for remaining as a ghost rather than passing on, and steer the hist or the party yo fulfilling that.

Essentially, don't think of possession as a combat power. It is a plot power. Even if the party knows the ghost is possessing their friend, the ghost has a hostage. To keep the player involved, if he is a good sport, tell him the ghost's goals and personality let him RP the ghost possessing him.

This, the Ghost is basically invulnerable while possessing, while the victim isn't. Threatening (or inflicting) harm on the body is goimg to have an impact.

Also, removing the contribution of 1/4 or 1/5 of the group is going to hurt the group quite a bit.

A Ghost could also control several PCs successively, too, switching bodies when the PC is to 0 HP or close.

I'd expect an higher-CR ghost to be able to use the weapons, armors, and other abilities they had in life, but for CR 4 what the Ghost can do seems fitting.

[da newt]

The ghost has no proficiencies (baring DM fiat).

So possession really is more of a puzzle than a threat. Immobilize the possessed PC - not hard to do w/ DISADV on all ST/DEX if the PC is wearing armor and zero profficiencies, wait for the ghost to decide to exit, attack it.

[Unoriginal]

The ghost has no proficiencies (baring DM fiat).

All creatures have proficiency in unarmed strike, but I don't see why that matters.

So possession really is more of a puzzle than a threat. Immobilize the possessed PC - not hard to do w/ DISADV on all ST/DEX if the PC is wearing armor and zero profficiencies, wait for the ghost to decide to exit, attack it.

Why would the Ghost decide to exit? They can make the possessed body hurt itself pretty easily even if grappled. Complete immobilization is hard.


And once again taking a PC out of the fight plus however many PCs are needed to restrain them is its own reward, a lot of the time.

Imagine this scenario:

4 PCs are fighting 1 Ghost and 3 Specters. Ghost possesses the Fighter. Now 3 PCs are fighting 3 Specters and the Fighter risks to be made to tear out their own lower jaw.

EDIT:

Also the Ghost could target a Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard or the like. That way not only the group lose access to the target's spellcasting, the Ghost has an even easier time causing significant harn to the body.

[greenstone]

Essentially, don't think of possession as a combat power. It is a plot power.

Ooooooooo that has completely changed the way I'm going to run that monster. Nice.

[Zuras]

There’s literally nothing stopping you from giving a ghost proficiencies related to what it knew in life. You can have a savage, angry ghost or an erudite, reasonable one depending on how you want to run it. I ran a campaign once where a ghost was an NPC member of the party for five sessions.

[Segev]

Ooooooooo that has completely changed the way I'm going to run that monster. Nice.

Glad to have helped! I'd love to hear out it goes after you run it.

[kingcheesepants]

Ooooooooo that has completely changed the way I'm going to run that monster. Nice.

That's how I run them too, it can be a lot of fun especially if the non possessed characters don't know that their teammate is possessed. Prep a slip of paper that says something along the lines of "You've been possessed, you can't use your class features and you don't know anything about the group except what could have been observed since you guys entered this house and you want to (whatever the ghost's goals are)".

It could be something simple like keep everyone from entering the next area, or protect the family treasure, or something more complex like solve your murder, avenge yourself against someone, or something random like eat every type of food, or enter as many magic portals as you can. It can be quite an entertaining and memorable experience.

[da newt]

All great point about how a ghost could be used to infiltrate a party, how action denial is very significant, or how to modify the MM ghost to increase it's combat effectiveness while possessing a PC (grant it +2 or +3 proff in all weapons and armor because it used to be a leveled fighter when it was alive).

My question was more focused on RAW - while possessed a PC/ghost has extremely limited combat power due to the limitations of possession (no class features, no proficiencies, no knowledge - which I believe would include no feats), and every time I've seen a ghost played in game these limitations were DM fiat-ed away.

As written a ghost suffers from the same sort of limitations a vampire does - it is interesting and tough to nail down, but it's not much of a traditional combat threat. For the party, the ghost is much more dangerous when out and about - while it possesses someone it is essentially nerfed as a threat (assuming there is no pool of lava to jump into).

A ghost attacks w/ +5 to hit for 17 necrotic damage (and if it utilizes it's etherialness well it should often attack w/ advantage for being unseen) vs a possessed level appropriate PC attacks once w/ DISADV (armor) and +4 (assuming 18 ST, no proff) for a max of 2d6+4 (11, great sword) or unarmored PC unarmed strike for +ST w/ no proff (other than a barbarian, what's the nominal ST of an unarmored PC - maybe 10) for 1+ST damage. That's so little you can ignore the possessed PC until the rest of combat is over and then take your time to deal with the ghost. Deciding to attack the possessed to drop them to 0 hp to force the ghost out is foolish and unnecessary.

[Unoriginal]

As written a ghost suffers from the same sort of limitations a vampire does - it is interesting and tough to nail down, but it's not much of a traditional combat threat.

I agree with this.

For the party, the ghost is much more dangerous when out and about - while it possesses someone it is essentially nerfed as a threat (assuming there is no pool of lava to jump into).

A ghost attacks w/ +5 to hit for 17 necrotic damage (and if it utilizes it's etherialness well it should often attack w/ advantage for being unseen) vs a possessed level appropriate PC attacks once w/ DISADV (armor) and +4 (assuming 18 ST, no proff) for a max of 2d6+4 (11, great sword) or unarmored PC unarmed strike for +ST w/ no proff (other than a barbarian, what's the nominal ST of an unarmored PC - maybe 10) for 1+ST damage. That's so little you can ignore the possessed PC until the rest of combat is over and then take your time to deal with the ghost. Deciding to attack the possessed to drop them to 0 hp to force the ghost out is foolish and unnecessary.

The possessing ghost is less of a threat to the group, to be sure, but it's still a threat one cannot ignore.

Even without the lava pool, the possessed body can just hurt itself, then switch to a different PC once their host is too hurt to be a threat.

Also, while possessing the armored people do make it harder for the Ghost to hurt people, there are other cases. To give two examples:

1) Possess a rapier-wielding Bard, still get the Dex mod to attack and damage

2) Possesses the Barbarian, probably is still strong enough to grab/push some of the other PCs, or take away their important equipment

Etc, etc.

And while unarmed strikes are not great, everyone is proficient in them.

So yes, possession does diminish the damage the Ghost can inflict, but certainly not enough to be ignored. And if the group does ignore them, the Ghost can just hurt the possessed person until the rest pays attention to them.

[da newt]

A bard without any armor - I've never seen one in play. Even light armor w/ no proff = attack at DISADV and no proff on the to hit. A monk w/ a short sword maybe.

Yeah - the barbarian is the one who could be the most dangerous, but they'd still lose athletics proff and rage so grapple/push is meh, but one punch w/ +St to hit and the ghost's +2 proff for 1+ST damage is meager at best (based on the ghost's touch to hit and damage and DC I'm assuming they attack w/ CHA and therefore have +2 proff), but they'd be more dangerous attacking w/ weapon and no proff to hit.

Even if the ghost decides to have the PC harm itself, it still suffers from the same low to hit and low damage of any other attack. Without a cliff, fire or lava pool near by, they can be ignored for many turns before the PC could be brought to 0 hp - no reason to waste any resources or actions on them. A CR 1/4 creature is more of a threat than most possessed PCs.

[JackPhoenix]

A bard without any armor - I've never seen one in play. Even light armor w/ no proff = attack at DISADV and no proff on the to hit. A monk w/ a short sword maybe.

Yeah - the barbarian is the one who could be the most dangerous, but they'd still lose athletics proff and rage so grapple/push is meh, but one punch w/ +St to hit and the ghost's +2 proff for 1+ST damage is meager at best (based on the ghost's touch to hit and damage and DC I'm assuming they attack w/ CHA and therefore have +2 proff), but they'd be more dangerous attacking w/ weapon and no proff to hit.

Even if the ghost decides to have the PC harm itself, it still suffers from the same low to hit and low damage of any other attack. Without a cliff, fire or lava pool near by, they can be ignored for many turns before the PC could be brought to 0 hp - no reason to waste any resources or actions on them. A CR 1/4 creature is more of a threat than most possessed PCs.

The moment PC is possesed, the party is one member down, and dealing with the possession means attacking one of their own, with no harm done to the ghost... and the ghost may try that again the moment the first possessed PC drops. Incapacitation also breaks the victim's concentration. Possession, in effect, is the ghost dealing the possessed PC's current HP in damage, and that's before he starts using the host to attack, however ineffectually.

[da newt]

The moment PC is possesed, the party is one member down, and dealing with the possession means attacking one of their own, with no harm done to the ghost... and the ghost may try that again the moment the first possessed PC drops. Incapacitation also breaks the victim's concentration. Possession, in effect, is the ghost dealing the possessed PC's current HP in damage, and that's before he starts using the host to attack, however ineffectually.

100% agree except the part about "dealing with the possession means attacking one of their own" and "in effect, is the ghost dealing the possessed PC's current HP in damage" - my entire point is NO, don't waste any time or effort on the possessed - they are so ineffectual that you should just ignore them until the rest of the fight is over, then you can deal with them at your leisure. When a ghost possesses a PC the PC is lost (big action economy suck), but also the ghost becomes just as dangerous as a CR 1/4 foe.

Beating your party member down to 0 hp so the ghost jumps out is a foolish strategy. You just wasted all those attacks and burned through all your buddies HP too - why? Just trap them and wait. No need to injure your party member. And when the ghost realizes it just trapped itself in a crappier version of itself, and dumps the possession your PC buddy is immune and still has plenty of hp to help beat down the ghost.

[JackPhoenix]

100% agree except the part about "dealing with the possession means attacking one of their own" and "in effect, is the ghost dealing the possessed PC's current HP in damage" - my entire point is NO, don't waste any time or effort on the possessed - they are so ineffectual that you should just ignore them until the rest of the fight is over, then you can deal with them at your leisure. When a ghost possesses a PC the PC is lost (big action economy suck), but also the ghost becomes just as dangerous as a CR 1/4 foe.

Beating your party member down to 0 hp so the ghost jumps out is a foolish strategy. You just wasted all those attacks and burned through all your buddies HP too - why? Just trap them and wait. No need to injure your party member. And when the ghost realizes it just trapped itself in a crappier version of itself, and dumps the possession your PC buddy is immune and still has plenty of hp to help beat down the ghost.

The ghost is in no hurry and has no need to leave the possessed. Are you gonna keep your party member "trapped" indefinitely, or rather, until they die of exhaustion? You can drag them around, which brings its own complications. And if free, they can Help enemies in battle, get in your way or try to mess with your stuff (I'm sure spellcasters will appreciate having their foci stolen or their spellbook set on fire), call more enemies to your position, or otherwise cause problems even without making a single attack.

And that's assuming the ghost doesn't have its own proficiencies with the same equipment the party member's using.

[da newt]

Sure, the ghost could decide to hang out in a PC's body while you disarm and bind it, then find a lvl 2 or better cleric and turn it (once / short rest until you succeed).

As for assuming proficiency - I'm 'assuming' they have all of the proficiencies they have as listed per the MM - RAW. Of course a DM could decide to homebrew / modify the creature's stat block anyway that they wish, but RAW the ghost is hamstrung as written.

[Segev]

Sure, the ghost could decide to hang out in a PC's body while you disarm and bind it, then find a lvl 2 or better cleric and turn it (once / short rest until you succeed).

As for assuming proficiency - I'm 'assuming' they have all of the proficiencies they have as listed per the MM - RAW. Of course a DM could decide to homebrew / modify the creature's stat block anyway that they wish, but RAW the ghost is hamstrung as written.

I'm really not sure why you think he's "hamstrung." Spending actions/resources to disable/bind the physical body possessed by the ghost is already making the ghost pretty effective: he's removed one PC from the fight, and forced others to spend actions and resources to subdue him. If they completely ignore him, he's STILL taken one PC out of the fight. If he's totally, utterly ineffectual in his possessed body, nothing stops him from walking away with his hostage, forcing the party to give him up for lost or to spend still more time and energy (and possibly getting into more fights they could've avoided) tracking him down.

And that's only if the ghost has zero personality nor goals beyond being an antagonistic monster! If he has motive and agenda, he can try to help the party and disguise that he's taken over the victim, and move things towards his goals as the game goes on.

Further, if the party does effectively subdue his host, he just has to wait for the host to be unobserved long enough to slip out and into the ground. If the party is going to buy, "Guys, I totally am free of possession," the ghost could've gotten free at any time, too. But once the bound PC is free of the ghost, the ghost can go possess somebody else. Even if the party realizes what's happened, they have one PC tied up to the point he can't do anything by their own hands, one PC possessed by the ghost, and the others now have to deal with this while down TWO people.

The ghosts could be utterly ineffectual at using their host bodies and this still is a pretty nasty tactic, unless the ghost is literally the only enemy.

And, again, a ghost using possession is better run as a plot event than as a combat encounter.