My topsy turvy group

[Rift_Wolf]

I've read a lot of threads regarding balance, especially wizard vs fighter, useless rogues and CoDzilla. And it seems like my party is the exact opposite.
In our party we have;
A Human Fighter who basically destroys everything before we can get a chance.
A Human Cleric who has resigned himself to the heal slave position.
A Gnome Druid who rides his dire weasel companion and has only cast a few decent spells in five sessions.
A Phanaton Scout/Ranger who does massive skirmish damage and regularly has hide checks in the mid 30's
An Aventi Paladin who does reasonable damage, but has yet to use his mount effectively (He took Deinonychus)
An Aquatic Elf rogue who isn't specced for searching or disabling devices (But is good at hiding) and uses tumble to get into flanking positions.

We're 7-8th level, and when I say the fighter kills everything, it is everything. In the time I've been with the group he's killed two gargantuan monstrous centipedes, some mummies (After the clerics turn check failed), a black pudding (The DM was merciful and fudged some of the rolls because we'd all lost armour and weapons), monstrous crabs and a gargoyle king (Which had DR 5/adamantine). He's survived a 140ft drop and a cave-in with almost no lasting harm. We're currently fighting a monkey demon thing that can apparently go invisible and teleport at will. It's pretty much a given the fighters going to kill it. Our DM regularly despairs as he's done 50 damage in one hit before.
On a sidenote, I'm playing the druid and it's difficult to get anything really done. My direct damage spells never get any play because of the fighter. I don't use wild shape often, because there's never any real need to. I've rolled up a LG dwarf wizard (Evocation, Necromancy&Enchantment banned)with item creation feats (And Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus Evocation), because we need an arcane caster (Our last one quit the group). I want to be useful to the party, but I don't want to end up being the Batman either. Any tips?

[Rigon]

As for the paladin i would rather call the mount Raptor or Velociraptor. As far as i know they are exactly the same type/size(/stat) so why bother with a name which is so hard to spell/pronounce (for me anyway).

And i think that a gnome druid is a joke worth a laughter or two...

[Nebo_]

You say you don't wildshape because there's no need to? Y'know that if you did, you'd probably be better at killing things than the fighter is? Direct damage spells aren't all that good for a druid, you're better off buffing yourself.

[Skjaldbakka]

Or, if you want to be effective and let the fighter keep his spotlight, buff the fighter.

[Baxbart]

Velociraptors and Deinonychus were not the same size, and would not have had the same strength and speed either.... but as far as D&D goes, I guess they would fall into the same 'large' category...

For the purpose of a game, who cares if you go a little 'Jurassic Park' (And by that I mean hideously mess up any realistic representation of a dinosaur...) and call it a Raptor... just invoke the age old 'Its magic, deal with it' clause and you're fine :P

Otherwise, working out the ramifications of trying to ride upon a creature that moves on two legs and relies on a long tail for balance.... would just be a nightmare. You stick a paladin on there with armour, and it would fall over unless it was considerably larger.

But... whatever...

Just out of interest though, what build does the fighter use? Does he consistantly deal high damage, or is he a charger?

Also, as a druid, how are you specced? Have you tried to be quite broad in abilities, or have you focused your feats on getting summoning/casting/shaping up? As far as I see it if the Cleric is a heal-b*tch, that makes the druid most likely to be secondary Tank. I don't know if you have access to the MM's for shifting options, but I can see a time coming when the fighter gets overwhelmed by numbers and can't battlefield-control, and you're gonna need something tough to take up the slack.

[Drascin]

Velociraptors and Deinonychus were not the same size, and would not have had the same strength and speed either.... but as far as D&D goes, I guess they would fall into the same 'large' category...

Actually, if I remember my dinos right, the Velociraptor was more fit for Small, Medium tops if you wanna go by length (as dromaeosaurids tend to be fairly long due to the tails) - a Velociraptor Mongoliensis's head would not reach higher than the average human's chest, tops.

Deinonychus, on the other hand... those were more or less of human height, and, again, long due to their tails, so somewhere between Medium and Large.

As you see, nowhere near ridable, in any case. I'd suggest going for an Utahraptor - it's an standard dromaeo, but much bigger and stronger)

Now, please, excuse the nitpicking, and go on ^^u.

[Baxbart]

Yeh, I'd probably agree there actually. Deinonychus had a good couple of feet length extra compared to the Velociraptor.. but then i'm not overly familiar with how the d20 system categorises size (by longest dimension, I guess).

If all else fails... get a T-rex

[Khanderas]

Yeh, I'd probably agree there actually. Deinonychus had a good couple of feet length extra compared to the Velociraptor.. but then i'm not overly familiar with how the d20 system categorises size (by longest dimension, I guess).

If all else fails... get a T-rex

My DM wouldn't let me have a raptor, so I picked a T-rex

[Holocron Coder]

Yeah, even though this doesn't answer anything:

Utahraptor - 6.5m long, 2m tall (debatable ridable)
Megaraptor - 8m long, 3m tall (ridable, but is NOT a raptor! Claw is on its hand)

[Ganurath]

I've rolled up a LG dwarf wizard (Evocation, Necromancy&Enchantment banned)with item creation feats (And Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus Evocation), because we need an arcane caster (Our last one quit the group). I want to be useful to the party, but I don't want to end up being the Batman either. Any tips?

Well, you've already taken several steps in the wrong direction.

1. You specialized in evocation. As the Logic Ninja points out in his Batman guide, direct damage is pointless if you have a decent Fighter. Given how good your party's fighter is, this is true even if you don't want to be Batman.

2. You banned necromancy. I understand that you may not want to raise undead minions, especially for flavor reasons, but necromancy has some potent debuffs. They'll be crucial when the DM finally finds something that the Fighter can't smash.

3. You've invested heavily in item creation feats. With the exception of Scribe Scroll, which comes automatically with the class, I would advise against investing in such a feat unless its a prerequisite for another feat^{Craft Construct} or you plan on using it a lot. Saved gold is all well and good, but not at the cost of a feat slot that could be used for metamagic or the like.

Advice: Change your specialization to either conjuration or transmutation, and swap out necromancy from the banned schools for evocation. Do some serious rehashing of the feats. Take max ranks in Spellcraft and call me in the morning.

[its_all_ogre]

a deinon- is not strong enough to be a mount for a medium race in full armour. i looked it up for my campaign and the fact it has only 2 legs means its ability to carry is based on strength alone, whereas a horse or other quadruped is doubled.

[Baxbart]

Just another reason to trade in that ol' Deinonychus for a T-Rex!

[Helios Sunshard]

well... it was going to be posted anyway (as in almost every other thread ) Here is the Logic Ninja guide for wizards

[Saph]

That's because when people on D&D forums talk about class X being more powerful than class Y, they usually, for some reason I've never quite figured out, pick 20th-level as a baseline.

At level 20, fighters do indeed suck. However, you're playing at level 7-8, where fighters are quite a respectable class. Not at the top of the pack for power, but not at the bottom, either, meaning that a well-played fighter will contribute a lot more than an averagely-played cleric or druid.

A lot of the complaints about balance I see on this forum come from people who - to be blunt - just haven't thought through what they're talking about. Level matters. Classes rank differently at different levels. Skill matters even more. A good player will contribute more than a bad one no matter what class he's playing. So to say that "Class X will always beat Class Y" with no qualifiers is wrong pretty much by definition.

In short, your group isn't topsy-turvy - it's normal. In the average D&D game, played by a mixture of optimisers and roleplayers somewhere between 3rd- and 10th-level, fighters and rogues do just fine.

- Saph

[Baxbart]

In short, your group isn't topsy-turvy - it's normal. In the average D&D game, played by a mixture of optimisers and roleplayers somewhere between 3rd- and 10th-level, fighters and rogues do just fine.

- Saph

Very true.... In fact, the last session I played in; our group consisted of two human greatsword-fighters, one dwarf greatsword fighter, and a pyromaniac rogue who tried to convince us she was a paladin and then proceeded to torch a small village...

But... thats my group... We never get much done in game sessions.

[Prophaniti]

In short, your group isn't topsy-turvy - it's normal. In the average D&D game, played by a mixture of optimisers and roleplayers somewhere between 3rd- and 10th-level, fighters and rogues do just fine.

- Saph

That's very true, and a point I keep making and am ignored. In one of my groups, around level 9, the most dangerous characters (to the DM) are the (foolishly allowed, I told him not to) half-ogre War Hulk and the Deepwood Sniper. Our resident mage comes in a close second, but that's as primarily a blaster. She's caused a lot of havoc and destruction doing exactly what a wizard was intended to do. I run another melee fighter in this group, a Knight, and hold my own with the Paladin, but am blown completely away by the damage the powergamer does with his half-ogre. (I do have the most hit-points in the party though... by a lot, and to be fair the half-ogre has almost died numerous times.)

In the group I DM, the most threatening character is probably the phsycic warrior (duh) but the party seems very balanced over-all, despite having multiple arcane casters. The rest of the party still feels useful and gets to contribute on a consistent basis. As I said, the game is only as terribly imbalanced as people say when you're dealing with theoretical situations, which usually involve someone saying "Contingency, Time Stop, game over" or some variation of that.

[Counterspin]

The core non-blaster offensive spells are the ones that ruin encounters and overpower things. Your big ogre guy can splat a single member of the opposing team, but your wizard could use dominate person to remove that person as a threat AND add them to your side. Not to mention that the wizard could then keep that enemy as a pet forever. And that's about the weakest option they have. The wizard has already had solid fog for two levels for pete's sake!

A wizard does not have to go into some crazy build or use noncore spells to be overpoweringly good. Their primary class ability is the capacity to disable two or more enemies of their own CR or higher during a single turn, without those enemies having to be standing within 10ft of each other, something that is pretty much unique to primary spellcasters.

[Prometheus]

This may seem obvious to some people, but to others it really isn't. Many DMs forget that enhancement bonuses (or any two bonuses of the same type except dodge and luck) don't stack. When they do this, they tend to make melee classes vastly more powerful. If they don't stack, and you have Guantlets of Ogre Power and a belt of Giant Strength +4, you can only get +4 to Str, not +6. That rules mistake probably wasn't made but it was reminiscent of another campaign.

[Rift_Wolf]

Well, you've already taken several steps in the wrong direction.

1. You specialized in evocation. As the Logic Ninja points out in his Batman guide, direct damage is pointless if you have a decent Fighter. Given how good your party's fighter is, this is true even if you don't want to be Batman.

2. You banned necromancy. I understand that you may not want to raise undead minions, especially for flavor reasons, but necromancy has some potent debuffs. They'll be crucial when the DM finally finds something that the Fighter can't smash.

3. You've invested heavily in item creation feats. With the exception of Scribe Scroll, which comes automatically with the class, I would advise against investing in such a feat unless its a prerequisite for another feat^{Craft Construct} or you plan on using it a lot. Saved gold is all well and good, but not at the cost of a feat slot that could be used for metamagic or the like.

Advice: Change your specialization to either conjuration or transmutation, and swap out necromancy from the banned schools for evocation. Do some serious rehashing of the feats. Take max ranks in Spellcraft and call me in the morning.

I chose Evocation as it seemed to be the most no-nonsense and straightforward school; I thought about conjuration, if only I had a compendium which worked out the stats of the celestial/fiendish monsters you summon....
Necromancy seemed like a 'bad-guy' school. Not just in terms of it's evil, but the spells seems to be more about lowering levels, creating evil creatures, trap the soul, etc. rather than working against NPCs. They seem more like ways of scuppering PCs. Sure I lose Finger of Death etc. but I'd rather use more evo.

I've taken max ranks in Spellcraft (A skill the group is sadly lacking), concentration, speak language (I don't CARE if comprehend languages/tongues renders this moot, you have to touch a creature to understand them and it's a spell slot that could be filled with blasty things instead), with 5+ ranks in Knowledge (Arcana & Planes) and Craft (Blacksmithing, Leatherworking, Tailoring). I took Item Creation feats because It fitted my character; a Dwarf Wizard Master-Crafter. I did take Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus (Evo)

As my druid was the first character I played, it wasn't really specced for much useful. I just decided I wanted to ride my animal companion, got told a dire weasel was a good choice, so I chose that and took mounted combat and ride-by attack. After a few fights I now know this doesn't work (Maybe if I'd built a more strength orientated druid). I think if my wizard dies I'll try to build a better druid, or maybe a mounted ranger, or something.

And I totally agree on the subject of Deinonychus/Velociraptors. You can't ride one!

[Solo]

I thought about conjuration, if only I had a compendium which worked out the stats of the celestial/fiendish monsters you summon....

You don't summon things if you're a wizard. You cast spells that do bad things to people. BAD THINGS!

Read The Logic Ninja's guide and learn.

[Moff Chumley]

I thought the point to creating a relativly non game-breaking wizard was by not being batman. Once you know how to do something, you are 100% more likely to do it.

[Kaelik]

Evocation is the worst school.

Why is it an either or? You don't have to specialize, and even if you do you should only have 2 schools banned, that means you should still have acces to most schools.

Necromancy messes people up. Messing people up is what Wizards are good at. Debuffs are awesome, but super debuffs that actually remove people from the fight are even better.

Conjurations best effects are things like the Cloud spells or Glitterdust, that impose conditions, not summoned monsters.

Look at spells that have awesome conditions, Damage is not good. Read Logic Ninja I guess, It's a pretty good place to start.

As for Druids, Druids turn into Bears. Period. Druids turn into Bears and then cast spells. They don't ride anything.

I thought the point to creating a relativly non game-breaking wizard was by not being batman. Once you know how to do something, you are 100% more likely to do it.

Batman doesn't have to be game breaking even in lower powered games, in fact, the specific guide mentions many things to not do because you will be too powerful.

Secondly, your statement is insanely wrong. Most people on this forum know how to make Batman Wizards, or at least could get the basics down. And yet most don't. Many even like to play Wizards, but use their knowledge of what is too powerful to keep themselves in line. Also, 100% more likely? As in they are absolutely going to do it? Or it doubles their chances? It considerably more then doubles the chances since it takes you from a one in a million (unless that thing is breaking a Druid, that's only one in two) to being able to if you want to.

[Yami]

Hehe, Rift Wolf, you are awesome. I love the blasty spell-slingers and even adore the sorcerer, so I shall offer my advice. ^_~

At 7-8th level you have access to the Orb line of spells. Now I know thier conjuration, not Evo, but they are good. Also I would suggest grabbing metamagic rods and pearls of power with your starting wealth to best supplement blasty magery.

you might also want to scribe a bunch of useful scrolls that you wont need usually, but might come up. A good example would be scribing orb of force to get around Spell Resistance and elemental Immunities.

There is a spell out there that is.... 4th level I beleive, my apologies for not looking it up at the moment, that is a swift action greater mirror image. This would be one of your best bets for personal defense, just in case your enemies have range or your front line falls through.

While fireball and lightning bolt are decent enough 3rd level spells, I would save your 4th level slots for something more utility. Cone of cold is nice, but since you already have fire and lightning under your belt, I'd think Evard's tentacles or the previously mentioned orb of force my be better.

Mage armour is of course, something you nab for a level 1 spell, and if possible, you might think about using it 3 times a day, so that your never unarmoured, but you may wish to just have magic missle or other more useful spells supplied there. The idea behind a blaster though, is to never waste time buffing in combat. Grab only the buffs you can have set up before hand, or that are swift. Then, when the time comes to fight, beat the fighter at his own game and tear up the scenery while your at it.

If you need more advice, just ask and ignore those who think your build is poor. Granted, you might be able to bring more to the fight with other builds, but then you didn't pick those builds so I'll do what I can.

[Solo]

If you need more advice, just ask and ignore those who think your build is poor. Granted, you might be able to bring more to the fight with other builds, but then you didn't pick those builds so I'll do what I can.

If you're going to ignore dissenting opinions, why ask at all?

[Yami]

Let's see... the OP ask how to do something better, and the reply is don't do it? seems rather unhelpful. He posted saying that he liked Evocation, and he's still being told to dump it. Seem unhelpful to me.

Give him the advice he wants, not the advice you think he needs. That's all I'm saying.

[Solo]

Let's see... the OP ask how to do something better, and the reply is don't do it? seems rather unhelpful. He posted saying that he liked Evocation, and he's still being told to dump it. Seem unhelpful to me.

Give him the advice he wants, not the advice you think he needs. That's all I'm saying.

I want to be useful to the party, but I don't want to end up being the Batman either. Any tips?

We are giving him advice to be more useful to the party. That is the advice he asked for.

[psychoticbarber]

We are giving him advice to be more useful to the party. That is the advice he asked for.

Okay, that's all well and good, but Batman isn't for everybody or for every game. I think that once he's said he likes Evocation, you can figure out how to help him be a better Evoker. I generally just don't like the tone involved, the whole "You're doing it wrong." tone, that sort of implies if he doesn't play Batman he's somehow wrong.

[Solo]

It's not wrong for him to play an Evoker, but he would be mure useful if he knew some good spells outside of blasting ones.

[Dode]

So you want to be more effective in your group?

You're a druid that doesn't use Wild Shape? Start using Wild Shape.

You're a Wizard that plans to focus in Evocation? Focus on Transmutation, Enchantment or Necromancy instead.

[Ganurath]

Give him the advice he wants, not the advice you think he needs. That's all I'm saying.

"Friends teach you what you want to know. Enemies teach you what you need to know."

If you want to play a blaster, I would advise you go for the Warmage from Complete Arcane rather than Wizard. Warmage not only makes things go boom a lot, but gets to wear armor while doing it.