OOTS #1281 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Don't make me derail this whole thread, Peelee

I dont know why you think id be playing a hand in it if you did.

[Fyraltari]

I dont know why you think id be playing a hand in it if you did.

You could take a hands-off approach.

[Pax1138]

I have to admit, it took me a minute before I realized what was "wrong" with Mimi's hands. I just stared at them trying to figure out what the joke was, until I looked back at the others'.

[enq]

So... do mimics need to have seen what they want to imitate? Can we have some wild speculations about who Mimi is copying?

[rasborry]

She's a horrible freak with green skin, no overbite and five fingers on each hand!

[Peelee]

You could take a hands-off approach.

If possible. Sometimes there's no choice but to play the hand you're dealt.

[ZhonLord]

So... do mimics need to have seen what they want to imitate? Can we have some wild speculations about who Mimi is copying?

I think she looks like the dead mail carrier, personally.


Also I gotta hand it to Giant, this is a handy way to identify Mimi being abnormal and keep a good grip on the context. But she IS a mimic, so let's hope she doesn't get some sticky fingers or else Haley will hand her a blob-whooping.

[Psyren]

Assuming it is Eugene that has Bloodfeast antsy... how does that work? I thought nobody else could see him without the sword. And even with Roy thinking it was really a Sending from Julia, nobody else can see those either. Maybe animals can see ghosts? (Now I'm worried about my cat staring at the wall all the time )

[MReav]

But is it the Final Dungeon? There's still Xykon's Astral Plane Fortress.

[H_H_F_F]

I actually wondered if Mimi took someone's shape, but it doesn't look quite like anyone we've seen so far, I don't think.

[ZhonLord]

But is it the Final Dungeon? There's still Xykon's Astral Plane Fortress.

Irrelevant. The astral fortress is only an obstacle if xykon's phylactery is actually there. Redcloak swapped them so it's a fake in the fortress. The real one is still here on the PMP somewhere.

[Onyavar]

We're only mid-journey to the final dungeon, and this thread had already quite a handful of finger-jokes by now. But Mimi's just drawn that wAI!

[Emperor Time]

But is it the Final Dungeon? There's still Xykon's Astral Plane Fortress.

But going there will be unnecessary since only the decoy is there. Unless something occurs that causes the party to go over there as well which probably won't happen right?

[Shining Wrath]

As a rule of thumb, there can never be too many puns in a OotS discussion thread. Even if Palm Sunday has passed, and the Flying Fickle Finger of Fate is no longer recalled by most playground denizens, and these jokes are clinging to the precipice of unfunny by their fingernails, in this digital demesne, our punish reach can never exceed our grasp.

[Fyraltari]

If possible. Sometimes there's no choice but to play the hand you're dealt.

That could be a handful, though. How do you handle it?

[MReav]

I wonder if Mimi's hands are a mythology gag referring to Rich's art experiments before settling on the new style.

But going there will be unnecessary since only the decoy is there. Unless something occurs that causes the party to go over there as well which probably won't happen right?

Irrelevant. The astral fortress is only an obstacle if xykon's phylactery is actually there. Redcloak swapped them so it's a fake in the fortress. The real one is still here on the PMP somewhere.

Right, Chekhov's gun was that ensign from Star Trek's sidearm. Who's up for some kippers in tomato sauce?

[Peelee]

That could be a handful, though. How do you handle it?

Throw hands.

I wonder if Mimi's hands are a mythology gag referring to Rich's art experiments before settling on the new style.

Really think we can shave with Occam's Razor here.

[Fyraltari]

So, mimics can take humanoid shapes, but they can't talk? Also, do you think Serini knew what she was saying? Telepathy? "Body" language?

[Joe the Rat]

This one killed me. Completely. I am now lying dead, and my ghost is possessing my computer keyboard to type this. So many levels. perfect.

(Plus it shows Rich can do "normal" hands if he wants to.)


It's always surprised me that AI has such a hard time with hands. It is a digital media, after all.

[Aquillion]

I've heard AI art actually messes up the details on a lot of things, but it's just hands that we as humans notice most because we're very familiar with them.

It's more that hands are something that are:

1. Easy to get definitively "wrong", in that there are strict rules that govern what a hand can be and the positions it can take, which an AI can easily break, and,

2. Tend to be, in the training set, in a variety of positions that prevents the AI from getting a clear set of weights defining how one ought to look - the rules are hard to learn from existing works of art.

The rest of a human is not as difficult because the weights that define the shape of a human are more coherent - humans can be in all sorts of positions but there's a comparatively limited set of basic outlines that the AI can learn.

A tree is not as difficult because while the weights for the branches might be a bit incoherent, that doesn't matter; there's fewer strict rules for trees, with a much wider variety in how a tree's branches can grow, so it's harder to draw one in a clearly-wrong manner.

But hands, in the training set, can be in a wide variety of positions, while also having strict rules and a limited range of motion that won't necessarily be obvious from the training set. So it's much easier for the AI to produce a hand that is obviously wrong.

(This is not that different from why hands are different for newly-learning human artists, really. But a human artist can learn about the underlying skeletal structure and already has a basic intuition of what hands look like, while the AI can't.)

[H_H_F_F]

So, mimics can take humanoid shapes, but they can't talk? Also, do you think Serini knew what she was saying? Telepathy? "Body" language?

She could be technically a Phasm, perhaps. Those tend to prefer telepathic communication, and their abilities are a better match for what's going on here.

[Peelee]

This one killed me. Completely. I am now lying dead, and my ghost is possessing my computer keyboard to type this. So many levels. perfect.

(Plus it shows Rich can do "normal" hands if he wants to.)


It's always surprised me that AI has such a hard time with hands. It is a digital media, after all.

A lot of artists in general can have issues with hands and feet. And since AI art works by taking other art, then such problems carry over.

[Gift Jeraff]

So Belkar is this franchise's Lillie.

[Shining Wrath]

A lot of artists in general can have issues with hands and feet. And since AI art works by taking other art, then such problems carry over.

Having a good input data set would be handy, then.

[Draconi Redfir]

OOTS mimic waifu confirmed.

that is all.

[Arin]

Man, that Fourth Wall is in so many fragments that it might need V's special elven stonemasonry skills.

Also given that Thor literally identified this world as self-aware, maybe they don't have a Fourth Wall because bypassing it is basically part of their reality?

Oh God, my head hurts.

[Mic_128]

Irrelevant. The astral fortress is only an obstacle if xykon's phylactery is actually there.

I still reckon it'll be used as a lifeboat when the final gate is inevitably broken.

That reminds me of the guy who drew phantom pictures with noses.

I wonder if he's still doing his webcomic 17 years later.

[Wildstag]

Now prove you can do FEET.

[Peelee]

I still reckon it'll be used as a lifeboat when the final gate is inevitably broken.

What makes that fortress any more of a lifeboat than literally anywhere else on any other outer plane?

[Ionathus]

Okay, at first I was reminded of the introductory section to Utterly Dwarfed where Rich printed some of the rejected upgrade character designs (specifically, the one with Roy with full five-fingered hands), and then it hit me: AI art joke!

I wonder if Mimi's hands are a mythology gag referring to Rich's art experiments before settling on the new style.

Really think we can shave with Occam's Razor here.

I agree: the simplest explanation is that the artist did a ton of work on workshopping those realistic hands and never got a chance to show them off!

Speaking as someone who's had to cut entire beloved paragraphs and scenes from my writing, I will always bet on the artist finding an opportunity to sneak in their unused hard work wherever it fits, even as a gag

It's a fun bonus that Rich is both making a joke about AI and poking fun at his own art experiments by depicting them as obviously unnatural-looking and ill-fitting for the art style