Does this make sense?

**WrstDmEvr** · 2007-12-09, 12:04 AM (ISO 8601)

I was leafing through the MM today and found out that if you add the vampire and psuedonatural template to a kobold, you can get a CR 1 monster that is almost immune to a level one party. The party fighter, with a maxed out Strength of 18 and weapon focus, can only hit it on a roll of 17. The cleric, with 18 Charisma, can only turn it by getting an 18 or more on his turning check. It's immune to precision damage and has SR 11, so the rogue and wizard have some tough time there. All for a CR 1 creature. Does this make sense at all?

**Mr.Bookworm** · 2007-12-09, 12:09 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by SRD-Vampire

Challenge Rating
Same as the base creature +2.

Originally Posted by SRD-Pseudonatural Creature

Challenge Rating
Up to 6 HD, as base creature +16; 7 HD to 15 HD, as base creature +13; 16+ HD, as base creature +10

Templates add CR.

So, technically, the Kobold would be a CR 19 encounter.

**Ganurath** · 2007-12-09, 12:16 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm

Templates add CR.

So, technically, the Kobold would be a CR 19 encounter.

The Complete Arcane Pseudonatural template is the one he's referencing, which is drastically lighter and only as base creature for under 3 HD. It should be noted, however, that the -3 only applies to character levels. So, a more potent build that's still legal would be a L3 Pseudonatural Kobold Warrior. Which is, in all respects, inferior to the L4 Kobold Adept.

**nargbop** · 2007-12-09, 12:20 AM (ISO 8601)

I believe the vampire template is +2 CR. See Monster Manual page 252. I think the psuedonatural template has a significant CR; I don't recall which book it's from.

<edit> Woah. Two minutes looking up in the MM and I'm beaten to the punch.

**tyckspoon** · 2007-12-09, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)

hmm. Depending on if the clause for 'Kobolds with NPC class levels' also applies to templates, a Vampire Kobold is either CR 2 (and 1/4, but nobody counts fractional CRs above 1..) or CR 3/4. Either way it's drastically better than it should be. The energy drain attack alone will insta-kill a level 1 or 2 character, and no low-level character should be expected to have to save against Dominate Person. We've got another example of how the CR system is completely fubared here. Adding Psuedonatural to it doesn't increase the danger that much, I think; SR 11 is still low enough for a 1st level caster to punch about half the time.

..hmm. Can Psuedonatural and Vampire be applied to the same character? Vampire requires the base creature to be a humanoid or monstrous humanoid, and changes it to an Undead. I'm pretty sure Pseudonatural makes things aberrations; does the CArc version have any type restrictions?

**Ganurath** · 2007-12-09, 12:41 AM (ISO 8601)

It's an acquired template that can be applied to any corporeal creature. Thus, theoretically, you could have a pseudonatural will-o-the-wisp.

**brian c** · 2007-12-09, 01:29 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by tyckspoon

hmm. Depending on if the clause for 'Kobolds with NPC class levels' also applies to templates

Why in the world would that apply to templates? A template is not an NPC class.

**....** · 2007-12-09, 02:06 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Ganurath

It's an acquired template that can be applied to any corporeal creature. Thus, theoretically, you could have a pseudonatural will-o-the-wisp.

Someone needs to draw that.

**Starbuck_II** · 2007-12-09, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by WrstDmEvr

I was leafing through the MM today and found out that if you add the vampire and psuedonatural template to a kobold, you can get a CR 1 monster that is almost immune to a level one party. The party fighter, with a maxed out Strength of 18 and weapon focus, can only hit it on a roll of 17. The cleric, with 18 Charisma, can only turn it by getting an 18 or more on his turning check. It's immune to precision damage and has SR 11, so the rogue and wizard have some tough time there. All for a CR 1 creature. Does this make sense at all?

Vampire Template can only be applied to a 5 HD creature.
Vampire Spawn is 4HD or less: so your Kobold is illegal.

**WrstDmEvr** · 2007-12-09, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

Vampire Template can only be applied to a 5 HD creature.
Vampire Spawn is 4HD or less: so your Kobold is illegal.

Originally Posted by SRD

"Vampire" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

So, by all written text, it is legal.

**Lord Tataraus** · 2007-12-09, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

Vampire Template can only be applied to a 5 HD creature.
Vampire Spawn is 4HD or less: so your Kobold is illegal.

Where does it say that? The SRD has no mention of a HD requirement.

**NullAshton** · 2007-12-09, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Lord Tataraus

Where does it say that? The SRD has no mention of a HD requirement.

I believe he's thinking of the create spawn ability, which turns any creature with 4HD or less into a vampire spawn, and creatures with 5HD or more into a vampire.

**BlackStaticWolf** · 2007-12-09, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by NullAshton

I believe he's thinking of the create spawn ability, which turns any creature with 4HD or less into a vampire spawn, and creatures with 5HD or more into a vampire.

I concur. And in light of how a creature would go about gaining the vampire template over the course of a game, his extrapolation actually makes pretty good sense.

However, by RAW there is no such HD requirement to apply the template.

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