Baldur's Gate 3 II: The Urge for a Second Playthrough

[Errorname]

This! Or at the very least they could work on giving us campaign/DM tools, so we can get to work converting all kinds of other D&D video games to this engine and edition. I was just watching Let's Plays/Retrospectives of the old school gold box run from SSI that spanned settings like Dark Sun and Ravenloft

It's going to be prohibitively difficult for modders to make content that matches the polish of this game's presentation, so I'd definitely prefer if they invested in professional funded teams.

A same-engine sequel seems like a given to me. A game as successful as BG3 doesn't just not get a sequel, they're surely already at least planning what they want to do for that. And unless I'm quite misinformed, most developers don't want to just change engines willy-nilly. Unless they've got a good reason to think they're better off switching to another, odds are they stick with the same one.

"Same Engine Sequel" is a bit misleading as a colloquial term, and standalone expansion is probably the better one. Like both Fallout New Vegas and Fallout 4 are being made in versions of the same engine, but only New Vegas is a "same engine sequel" because it doesn't have a massive overhaul of the graphics and gameplay and just builds a new game around the same core assets and mechanics.

If nothing else, we could easily see the next Neverwinter Nights game, or something else set in any D&D setting, as another game, or a downloadable campaign to be played in the BG3 client.

I was thinking Icewind Dale would be real easy to do. You could get away with not writing any bespoke companions and probably get it finished a lot quicker.

[Zevox]

"Same Engine Sequel" is a bit misleading as a colloquial term, and standalone expansion is probably the better one. Like both Fallout New Vegas and Fallout 4 are being made in versions of the same engine, but only New Vegas is a "same engine sequel" because it doesn't have a massive overhaul of the graphics and gameplay and just builds a new game around the same core assets and mechanics.

Haven't played either of those games, but eh, depends on what they want to do with the sequel I suppose. Core gameplay mechanics don't need any big redesign, since it'll surely still be 5e D&D. Visually, on them if they want to change things up a bit, though I don't see much need for it at this moment.

I was thinking Icewind Dale would be real easy to do. You could get away with not writing any bespoke companions and probably get it finished a lot quicker.

While I've enjoyed Icewind Dale 2 over the years, I would far rather they make a better game than one they can churn out quicker. And not having unique companions would definitely make it a much worse game, not a better one.

[Psyren]

I'm optimistic because things like graphical fidelity are finally starting to plateau. Devs won't be pushed to chase graphical increases as much as they have been in generations past, which is one of the big sources of throwing out engines and starting over.

Baldurs Gate 2 released in the year 2000 on the Infinity Engine. 2 years later, two D&D games came out - Icewind Dale 2 (also Infinity Engine) and Neverwinter Nights, on the Aurora Engine. NWN absolutely trounced IW2 in sales. That's not to say that IW2 did badly, but a publisher being interested in signing off on a a sequel project won't have to weigh such considerations if the engine is largely the same.

In chasing new engines, sometimes devs run into problems too, such as the bugginess of the Electron Engine or the massive workflow problems with Frostbite.

It's going to be prohibitively difficult for modders to make content that matches the polish of this game's presentation, so I'd definitely prefer if they invested in professional funded teams.

Well sure, but I don't need Larian near-perfection on everything. What I'd like is to experience some of the older D&D titles I missed from my childhood, without having to wrestle with obsolete editions or Dosbox.

[Anonymouswizard]

**** the lifts in the Temple, it's a pain to get all four characters on them and they killed Shadowheart twice. Also redoing the end of the temple tomorrow because I am not running the risk of not seeing Abigail Thorn's NPC (no shutup you have a celeb crysh!).

Also the sex scenes are very much not designed with Small races in mind.

[Errorname]

Haven't played either of those games, but eh, depends on what they want to do with the sequel I suppose. Core gameplay mechanics don't need any big redesign, since it'll surely still be 5e D&D. Visually, on them if they want to change things up a bit, though I don't see much need for it at this moment.

"Standalone expansion" is probably the better term

While I've enjoyed Icewind Dale 2 over the years, I would far rather they make a better game than one they can churn out quicker. And not having unique companions would definitely make it a much worse game, not a better one.

I think it'd be acceptable for a spin-off title, although I think everyone would prefer fleshed out bespoke companions.

[Zevox]

I think it'd be acceptable for a spin-off title, although I think everyone would prefer fleshed out bespoke companions.

I can't agree personally, I think you lose way too much without good companion characters. It would be far too much of a step down to put out a game without any. They provide a lot of the game's best stories and moments, and are generally more memorable than any other element of it.

Plus, I've seen the end result of doing it in at least one other series I can think of: Dragon Quest. Dragon Quest 9 had a full party of create-a-characters, and it just lost so much of the personality and charm of other games in the series for lack of any defined protagonists, it made it so much more forgettable than 8 or 11, or even some of the older games in the series. It's just not a good idea.

[Errorname]

I can't agree personally, I think you lose way too much without good companion characters. It would be far too much of a step down to put out a game without any. They provide a lot of the game's best stories and moments, and are generally more memorable than any other element of it.

It'd require a different ethos and it would feel very different. "Modern CRPG with a fully custom party" would be an interesting design challenge if nothing else, since the established model puts so much weight on the companion characters.

[Jophiel]

Also the sex scenes are very much not designed with Small races in mind.

I played a dwarf in Dragon Age: Inquisition and it set such a low bar for me in mixed-height romance scenes that BG3 looks positively graceful in comparison.

[warty goblin]

It'd require a different ethos and it would feel very different. "Modern CRPG with a fully custom party" would be an interesting design challenge if nothing else, since the established model puts so much weight on the companion characters.

That's basically just Solasta. Which is a fine combat simulator with a sort of story linking the stabby bits. Honestly they tried as hard as I think you realistically can to make interesting conversations with all custom characters, since everybody gets their own sets of tags and likes/dislikes, but it's pretty flat in practice.

[Errorname]

That's basically just Solasta. Which is a fine combat simulator with a sort of story linking the stabby bits. Honestly they tried as hard as I think you realistically can to make interesting conversations with all custom characters, since everybody gets their own sets of tags and likes/dislikes, but it's pretty flat in practice.

Yeah, I think if you actually wanted to do an Icewind Dale 3 giving you the option to you customize the party if you want to, but also having robust and well developed premade characters is the obvious best option, especially considering current expectations. That's basically what Pillars of Eternity did and considering where Sawyer and co cut their teeth that's basically an Icewind Dale successor already, especially the expansion.

[Psyren]

I can't agree personally, I think you lose way too much without good companion characters. It would be far too much of a step down to put out a game without any.

All the more reason why Larian themselves shouldn't do it. Instead, if they provide campaign tools, the community will likely set out to make conversions, retroclones, and spinoffs without harming Larian's own brand.

I played around with NWN's campaign tools WAY back in the day, and speaking just for myself, I would be 10x more likely to learn a less buggy engine like Divinity/a more streamlined system like 5e, especially with much stronger modding communities nowadays via Nexus and Discord.

I played a dwarf in Dragon Age: Inquisition and it set such a low bar for me in mixed-height romance scenes that BG3 looks positively graceful in comparison.

I thought Iron Bull and Blackwall were handled well, and Josephine is pretty tame anyways. Not sure about Cullen, Cassandra, and Sera. (And obviously Solas is... well, racist.)

That's basically just Solasta. Which is a fine combat simulator with a sort of story linking the stabby bits. Honestly they tried as hard as I think you realistically can to make interesting conversations with all custom characters, since everybody gets their own sets of tags and likes/dislikes, but it's pretty flat in practice.

I'd say Solasta was understandably very cautious because the OGL was shaky ground to build a CRPG on. Now that the 5e SRD is in Creative Commons I would expect their next attempt to be a bigger swing - particularly given that (a) they've done the hard part of digitizing the rules and (b) BG3 has proven there's a huge addressable market for this sort of thing.

[Jophiel]

Blackwall and my dwarf woman was hilariously bad. Half the time, she was apparently levitating or standing on a stack of phonebooks and the horizontal scenes were worse. It basically didn't acknowledge the height differences at all and treated her model as human sized. BG3 isn't perfect but it makes an explicit point of noticing that you're 2-3' smaller than your partner (at least with SH, Astarion and Karlach)

[Anonymouswizard]

I played a dwarf in Dragon Age: Inquisition and it set such a low bar for me in mixed-height romance scenes that BG3 looks positively graceful in comparison.

It's all fine until the part where I think it was meant to be implying penetration. If it was meant to still be foreplay then it works, if not I'm very obviously nowhere near Karlach's ladybits. Like there were a couple of minor issues before that but not ones I'm convinced a half-orc wouldn't have.

OTOH them getting down on their knees to kiss you is done so much better than in Dragon Age, but I still want a stepladder.

Also Karlach is such an utter dork when it comes to romance stuff. It makes sense, she's been stuck somewhere where she hasn't had a partner or even a friend for ten years, and there's so far no word on if she had any partners before all that, but it's still ADORABLE.

[Jophiel]

It's all fine until the part where I think it was meant to be implying penetration. If it was meant to still be foreplay then it works, if not I'm very obviously nowhere near Karlach's ladybits. Like there were a couple of minor issues before that but not ones I'm convinced a half-orc wouldn't have.

My character with Karlach is female so I'll trust you (and can believe) that it's less convincing when poking is involved. I don't remember her and Astarion being poorly done but, for all my responses, I'm not terribly invested in the nudie bits. Not to imply anyone else is overly invested but it might have been lacking and I just didn't notice.

[LibraryOgre]

I do think a game like IWD might be interesting for the engine, but IWD 1&2 border on being adventure games... sure, you make your characters, but very few of your choices have an impact on either game... I honestly cannot think of any choices, in either game, which matter. You might get a touch more dialogue with some characters, but otherwise?

[warty goblin]

I'd say Solasta was understandably very cautious because the OGL was shaky ground to build a CRPG on. Now that the 5e SRD is in Creative Commons I would expect their next attempt to be a bigger swing - particularly given that (a) they've done the hard part of digitizing the rules and (b) BG3 has proven there's a huge addressable market for this sort of thing.

Solasta didn't use the SRD/OGL, they had a specific license from WoTC. Nor, when they made the game, was the SRD particularly insecure, several games had used it in the past without controversy.

Really I think Solasta ended up being Solasta because they didn't have near the budget of BG3, they had to build out the rules and engine modifications from more or less scratch, and it was always meant to be a combat focused game with a pretty light story. If anything is going to rock the boat for a potential Solasta 2, it's going to be Unity turning out to be radically untrustworthy, which creates a substantial incentive to move to an engine whose contract isn't governed by Darth Vader rules.

[Jophiel]

Really I think Solasta ended up being Solasta because they didn't have near the budget of BG3, they had to build out the rules and engine modifications from more or less scratch, and it was always meant to be a combat focused game with a pretty light story.

Agreed. It was always meant to be a system for creators to make their own maps and campaigns. The included campaign was, in a sense, more "proof of concept" than it was an attempt to match other CRPGs in storytelling.

[Anonymouswizard]

My character with Karlach is female so I'll trust you (and can believe) that it's less convincing when poking is involved. I don't remember her and Astarion being poorly done but, for all my responses, I'm not terribly invested in the nudie bits. Not to imply anyone else is overly invested but it might have been lacking and I just didn't notice.

My character's female as well, she just has the required equipment. Also a thirty second boinking scene in a romance race stretching the entire game isn't really that important, I'm more amused than annoyed.

[Psyren]

Blackwall and my dwarf woman was hilariously bad. Half the time, she was apparently levitating or standing on a stack of phonebooks and the horizontal scenes were worse. It basically didn't acknowledge the height differences at all and treated her model as human sized. BG3 isn't perfect but it makes an explicit point of noticing that you're 2-3' smaller than your partner (at least with SH, Astarion and Karlach)

Fair enough - I only saw the barn and bedroom scenes myself so there may have been jankier ones I missed

Solasta didn't use the SRD/OGL, they had a specific license from WoTC.

They originally began development using the OGL but then sought a specific license to cover their bases. Now thanks to CC, they don't have to keep doing that (unless their private license terms require it for any future titles using that branding.) If nothing else, it will give them and any future devs a much stronger bargaining position.

If anything is going to rock the boat for a potential Solasta 2, it's going to be Unity turning out to be radically untrustworthy, which creates a substantial incentive to move to an engine whose contract isn't governed by Darth Vader rules.

I mean, I can't argue with that

[Anonymouswizard]

Managed to avoid stabbing Karlach in her sleep, then she tied me up so I couldn't stab her in her sleep, praise Yondalla for Wisdom saving throw proficiency. It's actually a pretty dang nice scene, really sweet.

Shame that the quest markets at the end of Act 2 accidentally sent me to the wrong end of the map! On the other hand I respecced Shadowheart into a Light Cleric and she's so much easier to use, she's still got her control spells but also gets to join the fireball squadron.

[Errorname]

Realizing Raphael might be my favourite character in this game

Spoiler: ACT 3 Spoilers

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The only thing better than a good boss theme is a good boss theme with lyrics, and the only thing better than that is a good boss theme with lyrics sung by the boss.

[Zevox]

Huh. I'm starting to think I may have somehow prevented Lae'zel's act 1 romance scene from triggering? I told her the interest is mutual when the subject was brought up pretty early, but since then it's been non-stop other scenes taking priority when I rest. The Guardian scenes, Dark Urge scenes, Lae'zel vs Shadowheart, Astarion, etc. Finally hit one without another scene triggering, and this time, no scene triggered at all. I do have the option to tell her I'm "ending our fling" when I talk to her, so the romance is flagged, but nothing else has happened.

(Didn't get it at the party because I did Karlach's scene there instead. Been figuring this character, being a Githyanki, would be a lot looser about sleeping with people, but would aim to actually end up in a relationship with Karlach.)

Also, finally had my first fight that was noticeably harder on Tactician than on Balanced.

Spoiler: Underdark

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The guardian of the adamantine forge. Holy crap, that thing gets so much more health on Tactician, and is so much more consistent about actually hitting my characters. I would up actually deciding that trying to lure it to the big hammer in the middle wasn't worth it, because giving it AoOs was killing me, and the Mephits that summons was a problem too. So I just had Karlach (Monk) and Shadowheart (Vengeance Paladin with a hammer) beat it into submission with Twinned Haste cast on them by my Sorcerer. A little luck on saves vs its ground pound and that worked out. Still took a lot of damage doing it, but it got the job done at least.

All the more reason why Larian themselves shouldn't do it. Instead, if they provide campaign tools, the community will likely set out to make conversions, retroclones, and spinoffs without harming Larian's own brand.

I played around with NWN's campaign tools WAY back in the day, and speaking just for myself, I would be 10x more likely to learn a less buggy engine like Divinity/a more streamlined system like 5e, especially with much stronger modding communities nowadays via Nexus and Discord.

Eh, anything of that sort that they do won't affect me, being a console gamer. I just care what the developers themselves do next.

On the other hand I respecced Shadowheart into a Light Cleric and she's so much easier to use, she's still got her control spells but also gets to join the fireball squadron.

Light Clerics are so good, yeah. Though personally I actually didn't use Fireball much with mine. Partially because it's nerfed (it has like half the area that it should), and partially because Spirit Guardians is an arguably even better use of your 3rd-level spell slots (and often 4th, considering how few 4th-level Cleric spells in the game are actually worth casting most of the time). Once you get to 9th level though Destructive Wave is amazing, a shame that spell is normally Paladin-only, and thus locked behind being a ridiculously high level since Paladins take forever to get 5th-level spells. And they might have the best Channel Divinity in the game. A 2/short rest large radiant AoE that scales as you level, doesn't hit allies, and doesn't use a resource you generally need for anything else is just fantastically useful, even if it's not hitting for Fireball-level damage. And at low levels I even found Flaming Sphere useful, since this game makes it work like a summon instead of the awkward way it does in normal 5e.

[Anonymouswizard]

Why on earth does the game insist on having companions take the lead in conversations at the most random times? I get to the circus, finally make my way round to Dribbles the Clown despite the ridiculous lag, and suddenly the game decides that I want Halsin to do the talking.

Now I have to sit through the incredibly long load process and go through the entire circus AGAIN just to see Halsin's reactions.

[Keltest]

Why on earth does the game insist on having companions take the lead in conversations at the most random times? I get to the circus, finally make my way round to Dribbles the Clown despite the ridiculous lag, and suddenly the game decides that I want Halsin to do the talking.

Now I have to sit through the incredibly long load process and go through the entire circus AGAIN just to see Halsin's reactions.

Usually its because the NPC is initiating the dialogue with whoever is closest. 80% of the time that will be the controlled character, but in areas like the circus where things are more open, you can crash into their spheres of dialogue by accident with one of your wingmen.

[LibraryOgre]

Usually its because the NPC is initiating the dialogue with whoever is closest. 80% of the time that will be the controlled character, but in areas like the circus where things are more open, you can crash into their spheres of dialogue by accident with one of your wingmen.

I absolutely HATE that. I have a lead character for a reason. They have the talky proficiencies, the Charisma, heck they are my character, so I'd rather the game was programmed to approach me, regardless of who triggered it, unless there is a specific reason (qv Lae'zel with gith unless you, yourself, are gith)

[Anonymouswizard]

Usually its because the NPC is initiating the dialogue with whoever is closest. 80% of the time that will be the controlled character, but in areas like the circus where things are more open, you can crash into their spheres of dialogue by accident with one of your wingmen.

It really doesn't seem like it would have been hard to default to the currently selected character, only about one of the party members even has proficiency in social skills.

And sometimes it literally just bugs out, one time I entered the main room of Moonrise Towers and it switched control to Shadowheart.

I absolutely HATE that. I have a lead character for a reason. They have the talky proficiencies, the Charisma, heck they are my character, so I'd rather the game was programmed to approach me, regardless of who triggered it, unless there is a specific reason (qv Lae'zel with gith unless you, yourself, are gith)

Even in those situations I'd rather the game run them, it tends to keep to a more consistent personality.

[Psyren]

Grabbed two more mods for my list:

- Wyll's Mirror: Reverts Wyll to his pre-horns look. (I always found it a bit silly that his appearance

Spoiler

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once inflicted, stays unchanged regardless of pact status.)

- Ritual Casting for Wizards: Wizards no longer have to prep their ritual spells to use them. That gives me constant access to handy things like Feather Fall and Longstrider while letting me prep other things instead.

I'm also debating the Muscular Dragonborn mod, but I'll probably leave that for my next non-origin durge playthrough. (Is there a mod to let your Guardian be a Dragonborn? Why isn't that a vanilla option?)

I'm still on the lookout for more good ones!

[Errorname]

Wyll's Mirror: Reverts Wyll to his pre-horns look.

I get that it's meant to be a permanent transformation and honestly I love the concept of having a companion who gets really messed up by a curse, but it really looks bad. Like aesthetically unappealing in a way that I don't think it's meant to, and I know Larian can make horns and black sclera look good! Feels like they went too far and not far enough at the same time.

It also happens really early so he'll spend basically all the game like that and averting it requires you to sacrifice another companion character.

(Is there a mod to let your Guardian be a Dragonborn? Why isn't that a vanilla option?)

If I had to guess it's lipsync reasons, I think the dragonborn use a different rig.

[GloatingSwine]

The whole "closest character does dialogue" thing is a weirdly regressive thing for BG3. It's not like basically every other RPG in the modern era doesn't have solutions for it.

And in BG3 where they otherwise try and go for the D&D experience and at the table getting the other players to butt out even if they're not there is the challenge sometimes (especially if it's something relevant to their character).

[warty goblin]

It's worth remembering that BG3 is also co-op, so every party is treated like the PC because from the game's POV, and of them can be a PC. Hence also I suspect things like no pooled gold supply and per-character trading.