TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

**Gruftzwerg** · 2023-10-19, 10:13 AM (ISO 8601)

Welcome to Gruftzwerg's Halloween Special

This is my newest high Theoretical Optimization showcase and let me tell you..., after the complains that my last PO build was to simple and lacking, I did go all out here. So I really mean HIGH TO here. This build will scare the sh*t outta you and his enemies.
So a lil DISCLAIMER here for those who stepped in here by accident: This build is not intended to play!
Once the build hits lvl 10, it starts to escalate very quickly. Thus, don't burden your DM and fellow players with this build. With that being said...

D,D,D&D productions proudly presents...

Melbane
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Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn"

a (Cleric) Shaman of Bane build

Background-story:
Melbane was born as a shaman's daughter into a lil barbaric tribe which recently converted to worship Bane. They used to worship Demogorgon (Demon), but some missionaries of Bane managed to convince the tribe that he is much more worth to be worshiped.
All this influences the way Melbane is raised. On one hand she learned some basics about religion to become a priestess of Bane (Knowledge Religion), on the other hand she still learned much more about her own tribe's culture. Perform: Dancing; Knowledge Arcane (aka shamanism); Tumble). Due to all this, she will never be a typical cleric of Bane. Her shaman culture vibes are to present.
But what's important is her dedication to Bane. And Melbane is totally FANATIC when it comes to this topic (Bane). All that while she knows so little about him (Knowledge Religion: 1 ...). Let's all hope that this doesn't lead into unexpected situations in the future...^^

(The build's fluff plays a bit with the relationship between deities, devils and demons (it's a D,D&D build^^). While most of the time these 3 are in conflict, sometimes there are collaborations and even pacts.
According to some Forgotten Realm wiki there are Dark Pacts between Bane and Asmodeus. While it ain't further explained, I used it here as base. I pretend that this build is kinda part of one of these pacts where Bane & Asmodeus (both L-E) try to steal powers from the demons to be used for their evil plans. But the Demons are not blind. While deities and devil think that everything goes according to their plan, they open up more opportunities for Demons to bring chaos to the word. So it's really unclear who is profiting here the most. I hope you enjoy the lil fluff added here and there.)
(Oh wait, I also have a dragon ingredient (silverbrow human). This means, it's a D,D,D & D build^^)

Main Goals:

A) We want to make Fear effects as strong and reliable as possible, and want to profit from em as much as possible.

B) The build intends to have the strongest possible Animal Companion with it's own (strongest possible) cohort.
While the main build is already broken enough I just wanted to showcase the possibilities with Leadership here. I'm not gonna fully build the cohort (to keep the showcase short). But you will get an idea of it's strong base abilities that you can further build upon. Further the cohort can use many of the tactics the Animal Companion uses. So, you should be able to get an idea of how strong a possible cohort with this character build can become. We can effectively get a 20th lvl cohort before hitting lvl 20 with the main build. If that ain't broken I dunno xD

C) Adding anything meaningful to the Beast of Bane template. Since it gives a special accelerated Advancement progression, normal Uber Animal Companion stuff for progression becomes irrelevant. Thus the most obvious upgrade would be to persist strong cleric spells here (since the Touch of Hate feat already requires cleric casting). We will try to capitalize on this for further cheese.

D) Try to have as much mechanical and fluff synergy and interactions between the main character and the animal companion as possible.

E) Become as hard to kill as possible for this build

F) Mixing divine (bane), demonic, devilish and draconic powers into a single build to achieve all of the above mentioned goals.

Cleric 10 / Human Paragon 3 / Death's Chosen 1 / Spelldancer 1 / Dread Witch 5

Race: Silverbrow Human

Alignment: L-E

STR: 10
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 16 (main stat: +5 lvlUp +5 Wish +6 item = 32)
CHA: 14 (secondary stat: +5 Wish +6 item + 2 Human Paragon = 27)

* Entering Spelldancer:
We need to get Mobility either as Armor enchantment (Bracers of Armor +1 + Mobility) or to take it as flaw. I suggest the item solution, since it ain't so front-loaded with feats and you don't need to take a flaw. The bracers also allow for additional special armor abilities, which makes it the more interesting choice here imho.
** Entering Dread Witch:
Here we need to temporary exchange our domain via Substitute Domain (2nd lvl spell) to the Hatred domain. Because that contains the spell Scare which is a spell requirement along the Fear spell.
The Fear spell is picked up via Divine Magician at lvl 8.

LVL	Class	BAB	For	Ref	Wil	Skills	Feats	Class Features
1st	Human Paragon 1	+0	+0	+0	+2	Concentration: 4 K. (arcane): 3 K. (religion): 1 Perform: 4 Spellcraft: 4 Tumble: 4	Combat Casting Dodge	Adaptive Learning: Perform
2nd	Cleric 1 No Turning: Shaman (dragon #353) Divine Magician (Complete Mage) Dragonscale Husk (Dragon Magic)	+0	+2	+0	+4	Concentration: 5 Perform: 5 Spellcraft: 5		Animal Companion: (pick any) Dragonscale Husk: +6 armor bonus Domains: Envy
3rd	Cleric 2	+1	+3	+0	+5	Concentration: 6 Perform: 6 Spellcraft: 6	Violate Spell (BoVD)
4th	Cleric 3	+2	+3	+1	+5	Concentration: 7 Perform: 7 Spellcraft: 7		Dragonscale Husk: +7 armor bonus
5th	Cleric 4	+3	+4	+1	+6	Concentration: 8 Perform: 8 Spellcraft: 8
6th	Cleric 5	+3	+4	+1	+6	Concentration: 9 Perform: 9 Spellcraft: 9	Initiate of Bane (PGtF)	Dragonscale Husk: (5 acid/cold/electricity/fire resistance)
7th	Cleric 6	+4	+5	+2	+7	Concentration: 10 Perform: 10 Spellcraft: 10		Dragonscale Husk: +8 armor bonus
8th	Cleric 7	+5	+5	+2	+7	Concentration: 11 Perform: 11 Spellcraft: 11
9th	Cleric 8	+6	+6	+2	+8	Concentration: 12 Perform: 12 Spellcraft: 12	Extend Spell	Animal Companion: (Fleshraker)
10th	Human Paragon 2	+7	+6	+2	+9	Concentration: 13 Perform: 13 Spellcraft: 13 Spot: 2 (+2)	Touch of Hate (PGtF)	Bonus Feat
11th	Death's Chosen 1	+8	+8	+2	+9	Perform:* 14 (+2) Spot: 3	Endurance	Shield of the Master Vigor of the Chosen (Endurance bonus feat)
12th	Spelldancer* 1	+8	+8	+4	+11	Concentration: 15 (+2) Perform: 15 Spellcraft: 15 (+2)	Persistent Spell	Spelldance
13th	Dread Witch** 1	+8	+8	+4	+13	Concentration: 16 Perform: 16 Spellcraft: 16		Master of Terror Unnatural Will
14th	Dread Witch 2	+9	+8	+4	+14	Concentration: 17 Perform: 17 Spellcraft: 17		Absorb Fear
15th	Dread Witch 3	+9	+9	+5	+14	Concentration: 18 Perform: 18 Spellcraft: 18	Reach Spell (Complete Divine)	Fearful Empowerment 1/day
16th	Dread Witch 4	+10	+9	+5	+15	Concentration: 19 Perform: 19 Spellcraft: 19		Delay Fear Greater Master of Terror
17th	Dread Witch 5	+10	+9	+5	+15	Concentration: 20 Perform: 20 Spellcraft: 20		Fearful Empowerment 2/day Horrific Aura Reflective Fear
18th	Human Paragon 3	+11	+10	+6	+15	Concentration: 21 Perform: 21 Spellcraft: 21 Spot: 5 (+2)	Heightened Spell	Ability Score Bonus: CHA +2
19th	Cleric 9	+11	+10	+7	+15	Concentration: 22 Perform: 22 Spellcraft: 22		Dragonscale Husk: +9 armor bonus
20th	Cleric 10	+12	+11	+7	+16	Concentration: 23 Perform: 23 Spellcraft: 23		Dragonscale Husk: (10 acid/cold/electricity/fire resistance)

Spoiler: Spells

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Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level	0lvl	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th
1st	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2nd	3	1+1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3rd	4	2+1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4th	4	2+1	1+1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
5th	5	3+1	2+1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
6th	5	3+1	2+1	1+1	-	-	-	-	-	-
7th	5	3+1	3+1	2+1	-	-	-	-	-	-
8th	6	4+1	3+1	2+1	1+1	-	-	-	-	-
9th	6	4+1	3+1	3+1	2+1	-	-	-	-	-
10th	6	4+1	4+1	3+1	2+1	1+1	-	-	-	-
11th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
12th	6	4+1	4+1	3+1	3+1	2+1	-	-	-	-
13th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
14th	6	5+1	4+1	4+1	3+1	2+1	1+1	-	-	-
15th	6	5+1	4+1	4+1	3+1	3+1	2+1	-	-	-
16th	6	5+1	5+1	4+1	4+1	3+1	2+1	1+1	-	-
17th	6	5+1	5+1	4+1	4+1	3+1	3+1	2+1	-	-
18th	6	5+1	5+1	5+1	4+1	4+1	3+1	2+1	1+1	-
19th	6	5+1	5+1	5+1	4+1	4+1	3+1	3+1	2+1	-
20th	6	5+1	5+1	5+1	5+1	4+1	4+1	3+1	2+1	1+1

Spells:
I'll be listing some notable spells for the build along with the Envy domain spells; the spells selected with Divine Magician; and the spells from Initiate of Bane. But befor we get to the actual spells, I want to talk about an Animal Companion's (or Familiar's) "Share Spell" ability a bit:

Spoiler: Animal Companion: Share Spells

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Share Spells (Ex): At the druid's option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts upon herself also affect her animal companion. The animal companion must be within 5 feet of her at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the animal companion if the companion moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the animal again, even if it returns to the druid before the duration expires. Additionally, the druid may cast a spell with a target of "You" on her animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A druid and her animal companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion's type (animal).

Note the differences between the two options to share spells. Only the (additional) second option actually requires the "target of YOU" and that this ain't part of the first (main) option.
For the main option the sole limitation is a "spell she casts upon herself", an undefined term in 3.5.
Spells that are "centered on YOU" are effective cast upon yourself. This is because the first option doesn't rely on "you" as "target".
While we can't cast these spells directly upon the AC (since they lack the target "you" most of the time), as long as it stays within 5ft it can profit from the spell. This allows spells like Aura of Terror to be shared as shown below.

(E)nvy Domain
(D)ivine Magician
(I)nitiate of Bane Feat

* = Persistable (@lvl 12)
** = Persistable with Reach Spell (@lvl 15)
# = Sharable with Animal Companion (limited to 5ft distance)
## = can be cast and shared directly onto the AC (has target: "you"); note that I haven't included touch spells (they can already be cast directly onto your AC like on any other creature) and that I sole marked those that sole work by sharing.

1st:

Disguise Self (E) *## - a really nice tool for this build. stops enemies from recognizing you from afar until it's too late^^
True Casting (D) - addresses any possible Spell Resistance issues

Sanctuary **# - can be persisted (and later hightened) to keep us save from most enemy attacks and (targeted) spells.

2nd:

Ray of Enfeeblement (E) - ranged touch attack that deals STR dmg; not bad but not great either
Detect Thoughts (D) *#- can be persisted and just to good to pass for regular social interactions. Also a nice option to detect foes. Nothing escapes Bane's Judgement!

Shield Other - mainly used in a combo to let our Animal Companion cast it onto Melbane.
Desecrate - mainly to give created undead up to +2HP / HD; use before "Ghost Companion" and "Undead after Dead"
Substitute Domain - Used to enter Dread With by changing our domain to the Hatred domain which contains "Scare"

3rd:

Touch of Idiocy (E) - great domain spell against spellcasters
Ghostly Companion (D) - mandatory for some build combos (see below in the Animal Companion spoiler).
Mystic Lash (I) * - electrical whip with up to 4d6 electricity dmg that stuns on a failed Fort. save; Ranged (!) touch attacks up to 15ft; on successful attack, can be dropped to further attack on its own.

Girallon's Blessing **# - get an additional pair of hands with claws. Also allows our Fleshraker to cast spells with a somatic component. Also very broken with Perfect (Mutiweapon) TWF.
Forced Manifestation - forces/allows our ghost animal companion to fully manifest and become temporary corporeal. Can be abused for full melee combat if we lack a Necklace of Natural Weapons + Ghost Touch (and if we want to use the fleshraker form instead of devil forms for combat).
Venomfire - use it with Violate Spell on our Fleshraker. (Remind you that "Yoshi" keeps his poison ability while trasformed into devils)
Adoration of the Frightful *# - aura turns anyone with a fear effect into friendly! Auto-win on a failed save. Only breaks if you attack the target itself, not when you attack its allies!
Rain of Terror *# - (DM #348) no Save no SR; 100ft range centered on you; -1/4 clvl penalty to fear saves (-5 max).

4th:

Vampiric Touch (E) - nice tool to deal dmg and heal up at the same time
Fear (D) - requirement for entering Dread Witch.

Sheltered Vitality**# - used to spelldance more often (infinite spelldance if persisted); persistable @lvl 15; gets exchanged @lvl 18 with Veil of Death
Consumptive Field *# - used mainly to make dispell attempts against our persisted spells harder; use free spellslots from Abosrb Fear to cast enough Summon Monster I or II each morning to start your day with a full buffed CF.
Dampen Magic **# - can be later persisted (with Reach Spell) and can produce an AMF (with 1/5 the remaining duration) if needed.
Divine Power *## - only needed in ghost form (or for Melbane herself) for Yoshi, since the other types (beast & outsider) provide already full BAB.
Tongues **# - mainly to allow our fleshraker to speak and to cast spells with a verbal component. (note that Infernal Transf. gives the ability to speak Infernal and thus doesn't rely on this spell to cast spells)
Lesser Infernal Transformation *## - transform the AC into a Bearded Devil all day long; required for Mark of Nessus (more info in the Animal Companion section)
Imbue with Spell Ability - give Yoshi: Sanctum (1st); Cure LW (1st) and Shield Other *

Spoiler: * Imbue with Spell Ability cheese

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Shield Other is the real gem here. Since Yoshi will have plenty of HD (and each one is a d12 + 2 from desecrate) he can easily absorb half of the damage that Melbane would take.
Sanctum (the spell) is intended as gap filler, if Melbane should attack and not immediately recast Sanctum spell (e.g. with her free spellslot from Absorb Fear).
CLW is meant as emergency heal. And if you wanna be cheesy, argue that spell's from IwSA also create a "spell list" (undefined in 3.5 compared to "spells known") and that his enables Yoshi to use CLW wands..^^

5th:

Curshing Despair (E) - debuff spell; not really worth the action to cast it imho..
Watchware (D) - best used on the toe from "Hide Life" (9th); (combo is at the end of the snapshots)
Battletide (I) ## - great combat starter; besides from some minor modifiers, this gives either a free extra attack or a free quickened spell each turn up to 5th lvl (clvl dependent). (see snapshot)

Spell Resistance **# - gives 12+ clvl Spell Resistance all day long (when persisted).
True Seeing **# - we can persist it and thus become immune to illusions 24/7.
Revivify - restore life to a creature that died within the last round; stable at -1 HP; Used to abuse Ghost Companion*

Spoiler: * Ghost Companion & Revivify tips & tricks

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Ghost Companion turns Yoshi into a Ghost for days/caster level (extend for double duration!). At the end of the spell's duration it really dies. To pevent this we will rely on Revivify, since it is the cheapest and easiest solution here. Just (kill) sacrifice Yoshi to Bane and Revivify him immediately. Finally note that the Ghost has a Rejuvenation ability to return back to life after 2d4 days. The required level check (1d20 + ghost’s HD) against DC 16 will become an automatic succeess once he is fead enough (Feed ability). But the time it takes for him to come back could interfere with the remaining duration. Thus it is best adviced to prematurely end the spell with 8 days duration left to be on the safe side. Otherwise we risk to lose our Yoshi forever. While we can get a new and fresh Yoshi within 24h of prayer, it would be a fresh one as said. Thus if you don't wanna lose all the accumulated Advancement of Yoshi, recast the combo always when the duration is nearing "8 days left".
Finally note that Ghost Companion has an inbuild trap. This is because if any spell gets dispelled, it counts as if the spells duration has ended. ("A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired."). Thus Yoshi would die if it gets dispelled. To prevent this, make sure to cast GC when full buffed by (Gr.) Consumptive Field, since that increases our clvl and thus makes it harder for dispelling.

6th:

Magic Jar (E) - a rare spell in the hands of a cleric; if you want we can abuse it to possess an enemy or one of the Fleshrakers from the Beast of Bane army, maybe even a crypt spawn with class lvls
Aura of Terror (D) *# - either gives or improves (+2DC and frightful instead of shaken) Frightful Presence; share it with Yoshi
Stone Walk (I) - link 2 stones (undefined size!) to each other to be used for teleporting on command word; a stone can be linked multiple times (with other stones). Each use/charge can transport 1 + 1/3 clvl medium sized creatures; limited charges (1/4 clvl) but still very spellslot efficient!

Eye's of the Oracle *## - allows to ready a free action each turn until expanded; has so many abuse options.

7th:

Limited Wish (E) - I hope I don't need to explain why it's great for a Cleric to have access to this spell
Kiss of Draconic Defiance (D) *# - can be persisted and prevents enemies from casting spells (40ft) unless they manage a Fortitude save! most casters have low Fortitude saves and combined with "Sanctum" this will make it very hard for most enemies to fight back.
Undeath after Death (I) - if the target creature dies, it comes back as a Crypt Spawn; can and will be used to create an undead beast army (see Yoshi's Leadership feats)

Infernal Transformation *## - transform the AC into a Bone Devil. Use this option (for Mark of Nessus) if you want to mount your AC.
Veil of Undeath *## - gives many undead traits without actually being one (and thus we are't affected by turn effects). Nice to become immune to some of the cohorts abilities (mainly fear).
(Gr.) Consumptive Field *# - always nice when persisted; again we use Absorb Fear fulled Summon Monster to get full buffed in the morning.

8th:

Simulacrum (E) - as if the build wasn't broken enough; if you feel like you need more cheese, here you go...
Mind Blank # (D) - for obvious reasons; immunity to mind-affecting and divination effects

9th:
Wish (E) - access to Wish & Miracle in a single build, what else could you wish for?^^
Hide Life ## (D) - hide your life into one of your toes (and cut it off) and become unkillable by normal means as long as your toe is safe. (more on this at the end of the snapshots)

Spoiler: Animal Companion

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Animal Companion: "Yoshi"

Our lil Yoshi (fleshraker) does evolve over time multiple times. Since our Animal Companion (AC) will later obtain a special advancement ability (Feed), I won't showcase the "normal" progression for AC but more the specific stuff that is going on in this build.

Warbeast Template (Handle Animal skill)
This gives some minor buffs. Most notably all 3 armor proficiency feats. Nice to have. Guidance of the Avatar should help with the Handle Animal checks needed for the template (and to train the AC some tricks).

Beast of Bane Template (Touch of Hate feat)
(Template can be found in: "Shadowdale - The Souring of the Land")
This is the first gamebreaker in the build. It gives our AC a Frightful Presence ability which has some nice synergy with the main build (more on this further below). But the most important part here is the "Feed" ability. For each 3 humanoids it kills and eats it gains a bonus HD. This will escalate the HD progression of our AC very fast. It should soon have more HD then Melbane herself.
Note that the first 3 Ability Score increases should be invested into INT to get INT:5, which is the minimum requirement for "Imbue with Spell Ability" to cast spells. After that I would suggest to invest all further increases into CHA to further increase several ability DC's. But you can also invest into STR if you wanna use Yoshi more as Ubercharger.
Finally we will invest the first 9 skillpoints into Knowledge (plains) while any points after that will be invested into Survival.

Ghost Template (Ghost Companion spell)
This is the second gamebreaker in the build. Besides from all the base goodies in this template it also allows to pick up to 3 (1d3 roll? dunno..) Special Attacks. Since I'm unsure if we have to roll the amount or can freely chose the amount I will list 3 suggestions listed by priority:
(Note that all 3 are SU and thus bypass SR and don't provoke any AoO!)

(1) Frightful Moan
At will standard action that panics anyone in 30ft on a failed will save (DC = 10 base + 1/2 HD + CHA). Unless the creature is fear immune this will easily win most fights in a single action (due to the high HD scaling and thus high DC in this build).

(2) Malevolence
Basically at will Magic Jar without the jar. (DC = 15 + CHA)
The "at will" part is what makes this a really broken ability.

(3) Corrupting Gaze
Gaze ability that affects passively everyone in 30ft at the beginning of their turn or when actively used (standard action) by our AC. 2d10 dmg + 1d4 CHA dmg on a failed Fortitude save (DC = 10 base + 1/2 HD + CHA).
An ongoing ability that can be enabled/disabled at will.
Enemis can subvert their eyes (50% chance to ingore the effect but Yoshi has effectively concealment) or even close their eyes (100% chance to ignore the effect but he blinds himseld and thus Yoshi has effectively Full Concealment) when they try fight Yoshi.

Becoming a Devil ((Lesser) Infernal Transformation)
Note that (L.) Infernal Transformation ain't a polymorph-subschool spell and thus only cares for its own rule text!
While it changes our type and subtype it otherwise leaves our Ghost template untouched. Thus we become a Bearded/Bone Devil Ghost that is corporeal (since we did lose the incorporeal subtype). * see spoiler below
We become an Outsider and have the subtypes (baatezu, evil, lawful) to qualify for the following two feats. Note that "devil" is barely defined in core (but in BoVD).The most known are baatezu. Gaining the "baatezu" subtype should technically qualify Yoshi as a devil. The baatezu subtype gives the following traits:

Baatezu Traits: Unless otherwise noted, a baatezu can communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet that has a language. In addition, it can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell. A baatezu is immune to fire and poison, and it has acid resistance 20 and cold resistance 20.

We use this trick (ideally persisted L. Infernal Transformation) to qualify for Mark of Nessus as soon as possible. Soon after that we'll pick up Hellsworn to always have the extraplanar subtype and to call the Nine Hells our homeplane. *see spoiler

1. Brand of the Nine Hells: Asmodeus
3/day Command SLA; just a feat tax, move on...
Note that Yoshi now has sworn fealty to Asmodeus (in his lifetime...)

2. Mark of Nessus
This is another gamebreaker. Anyone who tries to target Yoshi with an attack or spell or an ability needs to pass a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + CHA). It's like an improved Sanctuary spell, just that it is always on (even if Yoshi attacks) and that the DC scales with 1/2 HD. Sole downside is, if the enemy should manage to pass the save, he becomes immune for the next 24h. Due to the high DC this will be rarely the case. At higher (Yoshi) levels this will stop anything without immunity to mind-affecting abilities. (Note: while the ability lacks the "mind-affecting" tag, imho the mind-affecting mechanics are present and thus this falls under the immunites that e.g. Mind Blank would grant).
(Also note that this makes Yoshi also kinda immune to targeted dispell attemps, which is important because of Ghost Companion. Area Dispells on the other hand only dispell a single spell per creature and starts its attempts with the highest lvls spell and if it fails goes down the line. Remind you that we try to cast Ghost Comp. fully buffed by (Gr.) Consumptive Field and probable will persist a dozen and more spells. Thus it is very unlikely that an AoE dispell will hit the vurnable spot here.)

3. Evil Brand
feat tax

4. Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
another feat tax

5. Hellsworn
Gives Yoshi the extraplanar subtype and lets him fully migrate to the Nine Hells as homeplane. This enables him some extra cheese together with (L.) Infernal Transformation *see spoiler

Spoiler: * True Immortality: (+ type and type pyramid rules...^^)

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First let me tell you why it is important to keep Yoshi "alive" and why we don't just get a new one (with 24h prayer). Because we want to perserve its Advancement from its Feed abiltiy. A new Beast of Bane would start with normal HD (and thus feats) again and we try to avoid that at all costs!

I feel like that the type pyramid rule gets often overlooked from my experience (in games and in the forum as well). And imho it is kinda messy at first glance. But let me first remind you that the rule only applies to Templates and not to other kind of effects that change your type (e.g. spells and abilities).
This is important here because (Lesser) Fiendish Transformation does not get rid of the Ghost template. It only overwrites the types and subtypes which makes the build lose the incorporeal subtype. While the template may count as an ongoing effect I dunno if that also applies to its type change. But even if it would, the type Pyramid forbids it to make any changes since it is a template and we are temporary an outsider now.

By adding Hellsworn into the mix Yoshi becomes a full fledged demon that can only be killed on his homeplane the Nine Hells. This is because we are now an extraplanar Outsider and our body and soul build a unit. And due to Hellsworn (and general outsider type rules) our soul (and thus body) gets dragged to the Nine Hells when we get slain outside of the Nine Hells. Remind you that the Hellsworn feat is an ongoing effect that constantly reapplies its effect as long as we qualify for the Prerequisites (feats + being evil) and thus still works after Infernal Transformation is applied.

Finally also note that Yoshi also can't even be killed on the Nine Hells. This is because his Rejuvenation ability from his Ghost template is still there to prevent it. He will still return after 2d4 days even when "slain/destroyed" in the Nine Hells.

If Yoshi should somehow end up on the Nine Hells, Melbane can easily pick him up. Just prepare a pair of small stones with Stone Walk beforehand and give one to each. When Yoshi now gets slain, Melbane can easily Plane Shift and use then the (greater) teleportation from the stones to get to him. Then she can use Plane Shift again to get em back to the material plane.

Other Feats of Interest:
I'll add some more interesting feat suggestions, further numbered by importance. Your opinion may vary here. So if you want to focus on melee combat, you are free to alter the feat progression here.

6. Willing Deformity
+3 bonus on Intimidate. a feat tax, move on..

7. Abominable Form
Another passive ability that lets enemies become shaken if they view Yoshi. This stacks with Frightful Presence, effectively "frightening" everyone who see him. (DC = 15 +2 for each Deformity feat) The Dc is a bit low compared to the other DCs in the build tho. But still nice to have.

8. Lifesense
Living creatures become effectively a light source in the eyes of Yoshi! No living creature will be able to hide (and will have a hard time figuring out why they can't..^^). "I see living humanoids..." (pun intended)

9. Mindsight
Intelligent undead and and sometimes even contructs are a thing in 3.5. Thus better be prepared to always notice em.

10. Ordered Chaos
Lets Yoshi also count as Chaotic for any effect or requirement. Needed for the next two feats.

11. Thrall to Demon
1/day while doing evil gain a +1 luck bonus on any one attack roll, saving throw, ability check, skill check, or level check. Feat tax.

12. Abyss-Bound Soul: Demogorgon
The next gamebreaker. With pledging Yoshi's immortal soul to Demogorgon, he obtains the ability to summon a Tanar'ri 1/day (max HD = 1/2 HD of Yoshi) for 1h duration that follows his commands. Sooner or later Yoshi will be able to summon any Tanar'ri once he is feat up enough (bonus HD from Feed). Theoretically even unique Tanar'ri could be summoned this way.
Yoshi now has pledged his immortal soul to Demogorgon when he dies. But will he ever die...? *muahahahahah*

13. Deformity (Tall)
Gives +5t reach while in medium sized forms (e.g. Fleshraker or Bearded Devil form). Also boosts Abominable Form's DC indirectly with +2.

14. Deformity (Tongue)
Gives Scent which adds to the Track feat of the Fleshraker base. This is the reason to put all remaining skillpoints (1 / bonus HD) (after raising K. planes up to 9) into Survival. Over time nothing will escape Yoshi's tacking skills. Also another indirect +2 DC bonus for Abominable Form.

Melee Feats of Interest:

15. Power Attack
16. Imp. Bullrush
17. Shocktrooper - staple ubercharger feat(s)
18. Improved Unarmed Strike: allows Yoshi to combine unarmed Iterative Attacks along with its Natural Attacks
19. - 22. Improved -/Greater -/Perfect -/ TWF: gain as many offhand attacks as main attacks
23. Prehensile Tail: treats the Felshraker/Bone Devil tail as 3rd hand, thus another offhand for trippling our attacks gained from our mainhand.

Fluff Feat of Interest:
24. Life Bound: small buff to saves. sole mentioned because of the fitting fluff here. Yoshi benefits from the life force of its living master Melbane.

Any remaning Feats:
25+. Epic Charisma: all relevant abilities scare with CHA. Unless you wanna go the full Ubercharger route, this is the most recommended choice here.

It's all about Leadership!:
**. Leadership + Epic Leadership - I suggest to wait with this until the main build hits LVL 16 to pick these (remember that the Animal Companion doesn't level linear with the main build. thus I can't tell where in the above order you would squeeze em in), because we want to wait until we unlock 7th lvl spells (Undeath after Death).
With Undeath after Death we can add the Crypt Spawn template to our (Beast of Bane) Fleshraker army (remind you to create em with Desecrate as a shrine of Bane to give em +2HP/HD). This allows em to advance by class which makes an excellent base for a fitting cohort (and maybe some higher lvl followers). Note that due to the Feed ability it can bypass the normal limitation for a cohort's advancement:

Originally Posted by Cohort Level

The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself. The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level. A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment. The cohort’s alignment may not be opposed to the leader’s alignment on either the law-vs-chaos or good-vs-evil axis, and the leader takes a Leadership penalty if he recruits a cohort of an alignment different from his own.

Cohorts earn XP as follows:

The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP.

Divide the cohort’s level by the level of the PC with whom he or she is associated (the character with the Leadership feat who attracted the cohort).

Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to the PC and add that number of experience points to the cohort’s total.

If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level.

The first rule limits only the level the cohort may have a the moment of attaction and recruiting.
The last rule only applies when gaining "XP "and while being "a level one lower". With the Feed ability we can bypass this softcap and by RAW later ignore the restriction, since the cohort will never be "a level one lower" compared to the master again.
The sole real RAW issue here is what happens if the feat holder ain't getting XP itself since it is an Animal Companion belonging to a character (that maybe is in a party). The rules are silent regarding that possibility and a DM would need to judge if the cohort is able to gain further XP or not in this case... (not every problem can be solved within a showcase..^^).
But aside from that nothing stops us from giving Yoshi his own Fleshraker - Beast of Bane - Crypt Spawn cohort with class levels.
The cohort can be build similar to Yoshi (expect for the spell specific combos maybe). Imho the strongest class options here are either cleric or sorc/wiz casting classes. I think Sorc/Wiz casting would be the best matchup since the most powerful upgrade in 3.5 is access to more spells...^^

These are enough suggested feats for 81 bonus levels..I hope that this should be enough for the time being.. ^^

Spoiler: Gear & Items

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Gear & Items
Mostly common stuff and not really mandatory, except the Bracers of Armor + Mobility for entering Spelldancer.

If you wanna go the Ubercharger route for Yoshi, make sure to gather all posible charge multipliers:
- Necklacke of Natural Attacks + Valorous + Ghost Touch (for claws and unarmed strikes = x2 price)
- option to fly while corporeal to make dive attacks
- Sandals of the Tiger's Leap
This results in a x3 multiplier for both unarmed strikes and any other piercing/slashing weapon (e.g. claws).

Ability Score increases from items are to be expected. Mainly WIS and CHA for Melbane. If you wanna build an Uberchager Yoshi then buy him a STR item too.

And when it comes to "inherit" Ability Score increases, we will rely on Wish scrolls which we can use thanks to the Envy domain. And with a full boosted Consumptive Field, Melbane should be easily able to pass the caster level check even on earlier levels. With this combo she can save a lot of money by sharing the Wish scrolls with Yoshi.

Also remind you that Yoshi has all 3 armor proficiencies, thus buy him some nice armor if you want.

Spoiler: Snapshots

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Snapshots:

LVL: 1 <-> 5
We start out as a simple tribe warrior (Human Paragon) on her way to become a Shaman of Bane. As soon as she offically becomes a Shaman, Bane gifts her a (Dragon)scale Husk as sign of her chosen destiny.

A bunch of feat taxes and a lost caster level. Otherwise we are more or less a cleric. Except for the lack of Turn/Rebuke Undead. Instead we gain an Animal Companion (cleric lvls count as 1/2 druid lvls). For the time is doesn't matter which one. (e.g. wolf if you want a combat animal or a horse if you want a mount. I would recommended a wolf for the time being). The AC brings enough power so that the spell progression lost due to Human Paragon ain't hurting us to much.

LVL 6 <-> 10
Initiate of Bane gives us access to Mystic Lash. This weaponlike spell stuns on a failed Will save and will easily carry us trough most low lvl fights.
Later we get access to Battletide which gives either a free extra attack or a free quickening on a spell up to 5th lvl (scales with clvl). This increases our action economy in combat greatly. Especially if our Animal Companion remains near to us and we share the spell. This allows it to quicken it's spells from "Imbue with Spell Ability"

Our Dragonscale Husk further improves and now even provides us with 5 resistance to fire, cold, acid and lightning.

We also exchange (lvl9: effective Druid lvl 4) our AC into a Fleshraker (named Yoshi). And soon after that (lvl10) we turn it into a Beast of Bane (template). Our combat power has a sudden increase. Yoshi can now advance faster than Melbane by eating the corpses of its humanoid victims (Feed ability).

But before we get our (final) Yoshi, we pray for as many fleshrakers (24h prayer for each) as we have downtime after hitting lvl 10. Turn every one of em into a Beast of Bane. Since the Touch of Hate ability provides us with full command over it, we can release it as AC and pray for the next AC. With this we can build an army of Fleshraker - Beasts of Bane under our command. It's unclear imho if they count towards party size and xp or not. Imho they shouldn't since they are under mental control and can't get xp and lvl by class in the first place (otherwise any mind controlled foe would count towards party xp). If the DM should decide against it, you could still use em to defend stuff while you are away, or even sent em on simple side missions (keep the INT 3 limitation in mind). We will have more use for em later on.

LVL 11 <-> 15

Who's the boss?

Soon Melbane starts to realize and acknnowledge the supremacy of Yoshi and Yoshi in return accepts her as henchmen. (Death's Chosen). Yoshi is pleased that Melbane noticed his superiority and thus grants her immunity to any of his abilities. Melbane becomes more and more obsessed with Yoshi. So much that she barely needs to sleep (2h) and eat (Vigor of the Chosen). Note that divine casters don't need 8h rest like some arcane casters do. Divine casters just pray at a specific daytime. Thus we can fully abuse this stay up for 22h each day. Melbane and Yosi won't let their enemies rest and will be almost constantly on the hunt (to kill more infidels).

Spelldancer and Reach Spell allows for a wide variety of spells that can be persisted as cleric.

Finally we enter Dead Witch to gain a bunch of fear improving and related stuff.
Most notably here is Absorb Fear. Any time a fear effect tries to affect Melbane, she gains either a small and short buff or (what is more important) a free spellslot to cast immediately a spell (within 1 round/CHA-modifier). The free spellslot's level is determined by the fear effect's possible strength (if we would have failed the save!): shaken = cantrip; frightened = 1st lvl; paniced = 2nd lvl.
Combined with Yoshi's "Frightful Moan" ability this means infinite spellslots for spells up to 2nd lvl, when Yoshi uses the ability. Without that we can still get free 1st lvl spells for possibly being frightened by Yoshi's Firghtful Presence (boosted by an Aura of Terror). This allows for all sort of abuse in and outside of combat. And the best part it, the spell doesn't need to be prepared. Thus full access to 1st and 2nd lvl spells all day long.

Fearful Empowerment (1/day) is another nice ability for this build that allows to add a fear effect to a spell. Imho best used on a persisted Mystic Lash. This results in 2 Will saves to avoid being stunned and/or becoming shaken.

LVL 16 <-> 20
We finally finish our mastery over fear.

Greater Master of Terror allows our fear spells and abilities to bypass any kind of fear immunity by RAW (unless the target is 4+ lvls higher than Melbane). RAI I think mindless beings should be excluded and only work on later gained immunities as in the paladin example. But RAW sadly doesn't point this trait explicitly out and doesn't exclude mindless stuff.
Remind you that we improve the Frightful Presence of Yoshi (which has a high DC scaling) via a shared Aura of Terror, which results in the aura being able to penetrate fear immunity too now and improves the fear effect up to frightened.

Delay Fear works as the name implies, delaying a fear effect up to CHA modifier in round. If somehow our fear protection from spells should be stripped off (AMF?), we can still delay any fear affects long enough to win most fights.

Horrific Aura's üassive effect only works against creatures with <6HD and thus is irrelevant at this lvl. But the aura can be used actively (CHA-modifier/day) as a touch attack that can panic and bypass fear immunity. (no limitation mentioned regarding the type of fear immunity)

By RAW Reflective Fear only reflects those fear effects that we successfully save against. Since we'll use immunities against fear (e.g. Death's Chosen; Veil of Undead;...) this wouldn't work. RAI may differ here.

Heightened Spell allows to raise the spell lvl and thus DC of all the spells we wanna persist. This makes even low lvl spells like Sanctum very powerful again. Combine with a heightened Kiss of Draconic Defiance and we will shut down most attempts to fight us back. Sole drawback here is, if Melbane wants to keep the Persisted Sanctum spell, she needs to avoid attacking herself (or she would need to recast a normal Sanctum with a free spellslot from Absorb Fear).

Our Dragonscale Husk's resistance increases up to 10 which is still nice to have against natural hazards.

(At lvl 16) Bane is very pleased with our work so far. As such he bestows a last final gift upon us to shows all his glory.
Yoshi picks up Epic Leadership as his next feat(s). Remember the Army of Fleshrakers we had created a long while ago? Gather em all at a shrine of Bane. Cast Desecrate (2nd) on the shrine and cast Undeath after Death (7th) on each of em (may need a few days depending on how many Fleshrakers you have; we don't need to rush it). Now sacrifice all their life force to Bane so that they all return as Fleshraker - Beast of Bane - Crypt-Spawns under your control (touch of hate). Since Crypt Spawn is applied last it changes their Advancement to "by Class"! There you have Yoshi's followers and his cohort.^^
And if you want, possess one of em with Magic Jar. Become the Prime Alpha Beast of Bane xD

Finally (20th lvl) Melbane is able to avoid death herself. She casts Hide Life and squeeze all her life force into her little toe and cuts its off. As long as the toe remains unharmed she can't be killed by normal means (Hp dmg). Remind you that the spell is sharable! To hide the toe(s), she needs to make some preparations:

1. Buy a scroll of Genesis (9th)
2. Cast Wish: "Moment of Prescience" (+17 insight) and Loresong (+12 competence; Dragon #335) to get +29 to UMD
3. with max CHA (27= +8) we automatically pass the 37 UMD DC for the scroll: +8 +29 + 1d20 = min. 38
4. cast Forbiddance to prevent any attempts to get in via teleportation/plane shift/...
5. cast Watchware on the toe(s) (permanent duration!) and on a prepared stone for Stone Walk.
6. use Yoshi (as incorporeal ghost) to burrow the toe(s) into the stone and then the stone into the ground.
7. leave some "Fleshraker - Beast of Bane - Cypt Spawns" as eternal guards on the demiplane
8. use Miracle/Wish to cast Private Sanctum and Permanency. Nobody shall ever know that this demiplane exists! ^^
9. use Stone Walk teleportation stones to get out together with Yoshi.

No one should be able to enter our private demiplane or even know that it exists. And if somehow anyone should be even touching either the "stone" or the "toe", we know who and where and can Plane Shift + Stone Walk to the prepared stone.

So let me remind you of the question:

Who's the Boss?

Is it Melbane, because she technically owns all the fleshrakers? Or is it Yoshi, who is very powerful himself and raises an even more powerful spawn cohort himself? Or maybe is it Yoshi's cohort who can also advance by class? What do you think?^^

I hope you all enjoyed this silly build and I am curious about all your feedback. =)

**Gruftzwerg** · 2023-10-19, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)

Update part 2 (part 1 altered the OP)

(sorry but this didn't fit into the OP anymore. not enough space...)

Absorb Fear Combo

As said in the OP, with get a free 1st lvl slot every turn for free due to absorbing Yoshi's Frightful Presence ability (from Touch of Hate / Beast of Bane template). And if he uses his Frightful Moan ability (standard action) we even get a free 2nd lvl slot. This means that the build basically has access to infinite 1st and 2nd lvl spells. While there are some obvious benefits for this build like persisting all 1st and 2nd lvl spells, here are some less obvious combos to make good use fo this trick:

1st lvl spells:

True Casting - can be easily quickened with Battletide and thus be applied to all spells we wanna cast. This makes all fear effects like Aura of Terror easily overcome most SR you could face; a very strong option

Resurgence - target gets a 2nd save roll against any spell/sla/su effect. another very strong option.

Blood Wind - if we don't want to go into melee (or can't for some reason), we can always throw our melee and natural attacks

Detect XXX *# - cast and persist all detect spells available for this build (there are really many) and use em on demand (concentration).

2nd lvl spells:

Close Wounds - 1d4 +1/clvl (max +5) heal or negates a single instance of damage if cast immediate after. great value

Divine Insight - we effectively become a skillmonkey and can buff the skills of allies all the time when needed (and there is enough time).

Lore of the Gods - while the +5 insight bonus gets overlapped by Divine Insight (when used both together), but allows to use any Knowledge skill as if you had ranks in it = you may roll for DC's higher then 10. While Melbane may not be the most knowledgable around, she is always on a professional level no matter the topic.

Silence - if we need to be sneaky we can all day long. (we can't hide, but at least we won't make any noise)

Sound Burst - not the best option, but it is an offensive option and still a nice AoE stun.

Spiritual Weapon - conjure a SP every turn if you want; weak (dmg) but good option to prepare for an upcoming fight.

Final Conclusion

We have an HD monster of an Animal Companion loaded with a bunch of strong abilities.

We easily bypass fear immunity (Dread Witch), most SR (True Casting) and ensure that the save rolls are really difficult (+ bonus on the DC; - penalty on the save rolls).

All enemies who aren't fear immune have already lost, and those that would normally be immune still have a hard time dealing with our fear effects.

No enemy should escape our perception (detect spells, true sight, lifesense, mindsight...).

And all of that while the build get harder and harder to kill.

Finally, everyone fears us so much that they try to be friendly as long as we are there (Adoration of the Frightful ). Even if we kill their friends in front of their eyes. Could a build be more cruel?^^

**Chronos** · 2023-10-19, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)

I don't see any major problems here, though I'm not familiar with most of the ingredients. Though it does take a while for the build to really get rolling.

I will note that you're relying on an interpretation of "only need to meet prerequisites at the moment of taking the class", for Dread Witch. This is, I think, RAW for PrCs other than those from Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior, but it is controversial, and many DMs rule otherwise. That said, from what I can tell, Dread Witch isn't exactly essential.

Actually, once Yoshi gains the Feed ability, so far as I can tell nothing else in the build is essential: Even without abilities that scale with HD, a Fleshraker with super-high HD is already something quite formidable.

**Crake** · 2023-10-19, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)

Only issue with this build is that an animal companion cannot be a modified version of the base creature, you cannot have a beast of bane animal companion any more than you can have an awakened one. Once you add beast of bane to your AC, it ceases to be your AC.

Also, warbeast is not an acquired template, you cant “train” a regular animal into a warbeast. The handle animal checks listed in template are to turn undomesticated and untrained warbeasts into domesticated and trained warbeasts. You cant take a regular horse and train it into a warhorse, they are different breeds. Plus it also fits in with the above, you cannot have a modified version of your AC, it has to be the base creature only.

Finally, the animal companion rules are rather vague about what the 24 hour ceremony actually achieves. Its entirely plausible for a DM to say that you must have the companion you want to bond with at hand before the ritual starts, rather than saying that the ritual summons a creature out of nowhere (especially considering its a level 1 class feature), meaning you actually need to FIND a fleshraker. This point is mostly irrelevant though, because it doesnt need to be a fleshraker, you could do it with a wolf or whatever, fleshraker is purely there to be metagamey because its what people consider “the best” animal companion.

Originally Posted by Chronos

IActually, once Yoshi gains the Feed ability, so far as I can tell nothing else in the build is essential: Even without abilities that scale with HD, a Fleshraker with super-high HD is already something quite formidable.

Yeah, honestly, this is a pertinent point. Everything about this build could be dropped, and just keep touch of hate to create an infinitely feeding beast of bane. The rest of it is basically irrelevant.

**Gruftzwerg** · 2023-10-19, 07:57 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Chronos

I don't see any major problems here, though I'm not familiar with most of the ingredients. Though it does take a while for the build to really get rolling.

Yeah I am aware of that. Beside from the Mystic Lash from Initiate of Bane and the Animal Companion there ain't much going on the first 9 lvls.
The problem I had here was that both Touch of Hate and Spelldancer come online very late. The former is build defining, the latter the only really relevant option to further improve the Animal Companion here (due to its special advancement).
On the other hand, breaking the game already at lvl 10 is imho also a niche benchmark.

I will note that you're relying on an interpretation of "only need to meet prerequisites at the moment of taking the class", for Dread Witch. This is, I think, RAW for PrCs other than those from Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior, but it is controversial, and many DMs rule otherwise. That said, from what I can tell, Dread Witch isn't exactly essential.

Sorry that I didn't included the rules for that this time. I had the impression that we had talked enough about that in the past here. But let me sum up the outcome:

1. The Primary Source Rule (PSR)
2. the primary source for PRC is the DMG
3. neither Complete Arcane nor Complete Warrior create a more specific topic to trump the DMG. (e.g. the rules don't say this rule is only for PRC in this book)
4. CA and CW both contradict the general rules for the topic presented in the DMG and have no permission for changes. Thus the PSR ignores any statements made there and rules in favor of the primary source, the DMG.

The DMG has book and topic precedence and unless you create a more specific subtopic as said, you won't be able to change em (except, ERRATA or a new Rules Compendium)

Also note that such a ruling would make the Dragon Disciple, a PRC from the primary source the DMG, dysfunctional at lvl 10. We have enough evidence that CW and CA are both wrong here.

Finally note that both CA and CW are the earliest 3.5 products and thus suffer from the 3.0>3.5 transition problems, since they have been written/produced roughly at the same time. It seems the authors haven't been all on the same page here regarding this topic in 3.5

From my point of view, the rule in CW and CA is not RAW nor was it ever official intended as RAI (maybe temporary in-official during the production time).

Actually, once Yoshi gains the Feed ability, so far as I can tell nothing else in the build is essential: Even without abilities that scale with HD, a Fleshraker with super-high HD is already something quite formidable.

I know what you mean here. As said, it was a bit iffy to find any meaningful improvements. But this wouldn't be a TO build if I would have stopped there.
I feel that I somehow managed to still find interesting upgrades after that.
Like trying to prevent Ghost Companion from being easily dispelled. Deny enemies to attack or cast targeted spells. Multiple layers to come back if slain. Ability to summon powerful tannari. Protection against nasty spells and effects. Extra protection for the master. And a bunch of other smaller details.
Sure, in most regular campaigns just the Touch of Hate would be enough to solve most fights. But fighting ain't all. And this build will deny most foe the option to fight (back) at all and can also solve most other situations that can occur (with divination and other interesting cleric spells).

Finally, a clever DM might play around the "Feed" ability. Remind you that we are a cleric of Bane, a L-E god and not a C-E god. So you can't go around and randomly kill anyone on your way. A DM could tailor a time limited campaign and try to avoid humanoid enemies as much as possible. This could limit the HD progression greatly.
But even under such circumstances, I think the build would be still very strong and still partially broken. Multiple fear effects that penetrates immunity is imho a really strong build gimmick.

Originally Posted by Crake

Only issue with this build is that an animal companion cannot be a modified version of the base creature, you cannot have a beast of bane animal companion any more than you can have an awakened one. Once you add beast of bane to your AC, it ceases to be your AC.

Sorry but that ain't true. You can only attract a non-modified version of an animal with Animal Companion. But the ability doesn't forbid any further changes. Your ruling would imply that I can cast Polymorph any Object on a AC to free it from its master...
There is no constant check if your AC is still an animal. This assumption ain't true. If you should disagree I would like to kindly request a quote supporting your claim.

Also, warbeast is not an acquired template, you cant “train” a regular animal into a warbeast. The handle animal checks listed in template are to turn undomesticated and untrained warbeasts into domesticated and trained warbeasts. You cant take a regular horse and train it into a warhorse, they are different breeds. Plus it also fits in with the above, you cannot have a modified version of your AC, it has to be the base creature only.

Warbeast is not an inherit template. The animal ain't born with the template. You are mixing the fluff text that is not part of the rules for "Creating a Warbeast" into the actual rules here:

"Warbeast" is a template that can be added to any Medium-size or larger animal, beast, or vermin (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A warbeast uses all the base creature's attributes and special abilities except as noted here.

The actual rules contradict the fluff text your interpretation is relying on.

It's an acquired template that can be added onto any existing animal via Handle Animal.

Finally, the animal companion rules are rather vague about what the 24 hour ceremony actually achieves. Its entirely plausible for a DM to say that you must have the companion you want to bond with at hand before the ritual starts, rather than saying that the ritual summons a creature out of nowhere (especially considering its a level 1 class feature), meaning you actually need to FIND a fleshraker. This point is mostly irrelevant though, because it doesnt need to be a fleshraker, you could do it with a wolf or whatever, fleshraker is purely there to be metagamey because its what people consider “the best” animal companion.

RAW TO does not include possible houserules of a DM. It's a theoretically optimized build. Not a play suggestion for your table. Thus, no, the DM won't add any additional mechanical steps into the ability.

Finally, you talk like as if summoning would be something unexpected. Even if this would be a real game and not TO, we are talking about 3.5 here, where we have enough spells and abilities that can summon something. I would ask the DM what his excuse is here to penalize the Animal Companion ability? (unless he want to penalize all T1 classes).

Yeah, honestly, this is a pertinent point. Everything about this build could be dropped, and just keep touch of hate to create an infinitely feeding beast of bane. The rest of it is basically irrelevant.

Really? Just having enough HD and feats will win any game for you? You(r DM) must really lack creativity here. There are enough spells and abilities that can still beat a build with high HD and many feats. And most games aren't sole hack 'n slay. There may be other problems that need to be solved in a game. And as said to Chronos, a capable DM could try to play around the Feed ability as much as possible.

Sure, high HD and many feats will make the DM's life hard, but not impossible. For the latter, you still need to tailor a decent build around it. ;)

**Crake** · 2023-10-19, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg

Sorry but that ain't true. You can only attract a non-modified version of an animal with Animal Companion. But the ability doesn't forbid any further changes. Your ruling would imply that I can cast Polymorph any Object on a AC to free it from its master...
There is no constant check if your AC is still an animal. This assumption ain't true. If you should disagree I would like to kindly request a quote supporting your claim.

The FAQ makes it very clear that the creature must be the base version of the creature. It cannot be advanced, it cannot have templates, and if is awakened and becomes a magical beast (as would also happen with beast of bane), it no longer qualifies to be an animal companion, and loses it's bond.

This is backed up by the fact that the rules for animal companions state "A 1st-level druid's companion is completely typical for it's kind except as noted in the sidebar on page 36. As a druid advances in level, the animal's power increases as shown on the table in the sidebar". As soon as your animal ceases to be completely typical outside of the AC bonuses, it no longer fits the criteria for an animal companion.

Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg

Warbeast is not an inherit template. The animal ain't born with the template. You are mixing the fluff text that is not part of the rules for "Creating a Warbeast" into the actual rules here:

The actual rules contradict the fluff text your interpretation is relying on.

It's an acquired template that can be added onto any existing animal via Handle Animal.

That text about being able to be applied to "any" animal is the same wording in inherited templates, so its not a point for you in regards to it being an acquired template. Secondly as noted, the handle animal DCs are the modified DCs for rearing and training a warbeast. It specifies that warbeasts are more difficult to rear train than normal animals, which, in its wording, makes it very clear that it is a warbeast BEFORE it's training, not DUE TO it's training, since you have to REAR an animal before you TRAIN it, thus, the DCs would not be modified for REARING if it was not ALREADY a warbeast.

But I don't blame you for your misreading, because this is actually a very common misreading of the rules.

Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg

RAW TO does not include possible houserules of a DM. It's a theoretically optimized build. Not a play suggestion for your table. Thus, no, the DM won't add any additional mechanical steps into the ability.

Finally, you talk like as if summoning would be something unexpected. Even if this would be a real game and not TO, we are talking about 3.5 here, where we have enough spells and abilities that can summon something. I would ask the DM what his excuse is here to penalize the Animal Companion ability? (unless he want to penalize all T1 classes).

It's not a houserule, it's an ambiguity in the rules. The rules don't actually state that a creature if your choosing just appears.

Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg

Really? Just having enough HD and feats will win any game for you? You(r DM) must really lack creativity here. There are enough spells and abilities that can still beat a build with high HD and many feats. And most games aren't sole hack 'n slay. There may be other problems that need to be solved in a game. And as said to Chronos, a capable DM could try to play around the Feed ability as much as possible.

Sure, high HD and many feats will make the DM's life hard, but not impossible. For the latter, you still need to tailor a decent build around it. ;)

Considering that, with feats alone, you can achieve 9th level spellcasting, yes, having infinite HD easily overshadows the rest of the build.

**Gruftzwerg** · 2023-10-19, 11:24 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Crake

The FAQ makes it very clear that the creature must be the base version of the creature. It cannot be advanced, it cannot have templates, and if is awakened and becomes a magical beast (as would also happen with beast of bane), it no longer qualifies to be an animal companion, and loses it's bond.

FAQ is a guideline and not 100% RAW. Show me the "ex-animal companion" rule you are talking about.
Where do you see a rule such a Barbarians, Paladins and Clerics have? Where do you see a rule that constantly checks after summoning it?

As you just recently said in another thread, 3.5 is exception based. And here we have a specific exception since we have effects that later alter the AC's type.

This is backed up by the fact that the rules for animal companions state "A 1st-level druid's companion is completely typical for it's kind except as noted in the sidebar on page 36. As a druid advances in level, the animal's power increases as shown on the table in the sidebar". As soon as your animal ceases to be completely typical outside of the AC bonuses, it no longer fits the criteria for an animal companion.

I don't see any rule that explicitly makes you lose your AC when it's not an animal anymore (or when its type changes).
Nor do I think that this means that nothing may improve your AC anymore. Would casting a non shared spell onto the AC make it stop being an AC because it's not typical for its kind to have a spell on it?

The "completely typical" is referring to the "most commonly encountered version of a creature" term used in the MM to describe the default entries.
But as said, nothing stops us from applying specific stuff on it.

That text about being able to be applied to "any" animal is the same wording in inherited templates, so its not a point for you in regards to it being an acquired template. Secondly as noted, the handle animal DCs are the modified DCs for rearing and training a warbeast. It specifies that warbeasts are more difficult to rear train than normal animals, which, in its wording, makes it very clear that it is a warbeast BEFORE it's training, not DUE TO it's training, since you have to REAR an animal before you TRAIN it, thus, the DCs would not be modified for REARING if it was not ALREADY a warbeast.

First: The fact that someone needs to use Handle Animal on an already existing creature makes it clear that is can only be an acquired template.

Second: I assume that you are referring to the text passage that talks about how "Magical Beast" are harder to train. (since you didn't provided a quote..)
Beast (3.0) > Magical Beast (3.5)

And it talks about the possibility that the template can be also added onto (Magical) Beasts. You are completely misunderstanding the intention here.

But I don't blame you for your misreading, because this is actually a very common misreading of the rules.

Nor do I blame you for misreading because of forgetting to apply the 3.0 3.5 conversion here.

It's not a houserule, it's an ambiguity in the rules. The rules don't actually state that a creature if your choosing just appears.

While I get what you are aiming at here, you are adding mechanical requirements (!) to the ability that are not presented by the rules. The rules don't limit the use of the ability on a present creature. Nowhere does it say, you must already have a creature.
That's like saying "you didn't have a meal so far today, so you can't Power Attack since you feel to hungry to make a "powerful attack". Sure a DM can do that, but only by adding houserules.
If a DM makes these changes, he is adding houserules not presented in any official book.

Or do you require a cleric to research the effect of all new spells available to him? The rules ambiguous and don't say that he knows what they are capable of doing. Is it now RAW that all clerics have to test their spells before they know what they do?

While I get that sometimes there are ambiguous things in 3.5, we shouldn't blindly assume that they are everywhere. And filling the gaps, should be done with care to not add unnecessary mechanics.

Considering that, with feats alone, you can achieve 9th level spellcasting, yes, having infinite HD easily overshadows the rest of the build.

Really? How, I'm curious about that. Could you explain the trick?

Aside from the trick, I'm still not convinced that you don't need to address the weak points of the build. Like being dispellable to death. And that needs to be addressed (partially) by the main build. Further the master (player) needs to stay alive. Sorry, but I don't think that just an HD-monster is enough to make a good build. It is at best unbalanced at first, but you need to add stuff to make it truly broken imho (from a TO perspective).

**Crake** · 2023-10-19, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg

First: The fact that someone needs to use Handle Animal on an already existing creature makes it clear that is can only be an acquired template.

All animals, even non-warbeasts, need to be both reared and then trained, so not sure what your point is here. If you could train a creature INTO being a warbeast, then it wouldn't be a warbeast during the REARING phase, which involves domesticating the creature.

Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg

Second: I assume that you are referring to the text passage that talks about how "Magical Beast" are harder to train. (since you didn't provided a quote..)

No, I'm talking about the section under the warbeast template "Training a Warbeast" which specifies that warbeasts are more difficult to rear and train than regular versions of those animals.
It says "A warbeast can be reared and trained just as the base creature can" This means that the warbeast is a warbeast before being reared and trained, because otherwise it would still be the base creature at that time.

Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg

Beast (3.0) > Magical Beast (3.5)

And it talks about the possibility that the template can be also added onto (Magical) Beasts. You are completely misunderstanding the intention here.

That is incorrect. Beast was a creature type referring to more exotic bestial animals like dinosaurs and the like, and were generally rolled into animals in the 3.5 conversion, though some did in fact go to being magical beasts, such as the owlbear. Magical beasts were their own creature type even back in 3.0, and were not the same as regular beasts (hence the distinction of being magical). In 3.0, beasts were harder to train than animals, but they WERE still trainable. Warbeasts are even harder still to train, as per above.

Warbeast is NOT able to be applied to magical beasts.

Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg

Nor do I blame you for misreading because of forgetting to apply the 3.0 3.5 conversion here.

Helps to know the history of the system before you say stuff like this.

**Chronos** · 2023-10-20, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)

Someone in another thread just mentioned the Planar Familiar spell, which seems relevant here. It can be cast on your familiar, animal companion, or special mount, and instantaneously grants it the Fiendish (or Celestial, Axiomatic, or Anarchic) template.

First of all, this seems like something that this build should use anyway, as it'd get more of the flavor online earlier (it's a 2nd level cleric spell (which is really odd, given that clerics don't normally have companions), so there's no special shenanigans needed to access it). And I don't think it would be any barrier to any of the other tricks, so even at the end, it'd still be a slight power boost.

More notably, however, the fiendish template, when applied to an animal, turns it into a magical beast. And it's explicitly a spell that can be cast on an animal companion, that then remains an animal companion. Even if changing type would normally cause an animal companion to become an ex-companion, this would seem to provide a way around that.

**daremetoidareyo** · 2023-10-20, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Chronos

Someone in another thread just mentioned the Planar Familiar spell, which seems relevant here. It can be cast on your familiar, animal companion, or special mount, and instantaneously grants it the Fiendish (or Celestial, Axiomatic, or Anarchic) template.

First of all, this seems like something that this build should use anyway, as it'd get more of the flavor online earlier (it's a 2nd level cleric spell (which is really odd, given that clerics don't normally have companions), so there's no special shenanigans needed to access it). And I don't think it would be any barrier to any of the other tricks, so even at the end, it'd still be a slight power boost.

More notably, however, the fiendish template, when applied to an animal, turns it into a magical beast. And it's explicitly a spell that can be cast on an animal companion, that then remains an animal companion. Even if changing type would normally cause an animal companion to become an ex-companion, this would seem to provide a way around that.

Elegant solutioneering!

**Gruftzwerg** · 2023-10-20, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Crake

All animals, even non-warbeasts, need to be both reared and then trained, so not sure what your point is here. If you could train a creature INTO being a warbeast, then it wouldn't be a warbeast during the REARING phase, which involves domesticating the creature.

No, I'm talking about the section under the warbeast template "Training a Warbeast" which specifies that warbeasts are more difficult to rear and train than regular versions of those animals.
It says "A warbeast can be reared and trained just as the base creature can" This means that the warbeast is a warbeast before being reared and trained, because otherwise it would still be the base creature at that time.

Originally Posted by warbeast

A warbeast can be reared and trained just as the base creature can. If the base creature is a domestic animal, the creature need nor be specially reared, but it must be trained for two months (Handle Animal DC 20) to develop its abilities.

1. The quote makes clear that not all warbeast need to be reared, which contradicts your argument chain entirely.
2. An AC also doesn't need to be reared. It is already under your command and thus domestic. You just train it some (bonus) tricks and that's it. Or do you force your druid and ranger players to rear their new AC for a year before use?
3. The text tells you that warbeasts have higher Handle Animal DC's. I don't get how that should affect anything here (except the higher DC's)?

That is incorrect. Beast was a creature type referring to more exotic bestial animals like dinosaurs and the like, and were generally rolled into animals in the 3.5 conversion, though some did in fact go to being magical beasts, such as the owlbear. Magical beasts were their own creature type even back in 3.0, and were not the same as regular beasts (hence the distinction of being magical). In 3.0, beasts were harder to train than animals, but they WERE still trainable. Warbeasts are even harder still to train, as per above.

Warbeast is NOT able to be applied to magical beasts.

Even if that would be true, WB is the first template applied to the AC (which is still a regular "animal") and thus still legal.

Originally Posted by Chronos

Someone in another thread just mentioned the Planar Familiar spell, which seems relevant here. It can be cast on your familiar, animal companion, or special mount, and instantaneously grants it the Fiendish (or Celestial, Axiomatic, or Anarchic) template.

First of all, this seems like something that this build should use anyway, as it'd get more of the flavor online earlier (it's a 2nd level cleric spell (which is really odd, given that clerics don't normally have companions), so there's no special shenanigans needed to access it). And I don't think it would be any barrier to any of the other tricks, so even at the end, it'd still be a slight power boost.

More notably, however, the fiendish template, when applied to an animal, turns it into a magical beast. And it's explicitly a spell that can be cast on an animal companion, that then remains an animal companion. Even if changing type would normally cause an animal companion to become an ex-companion, this would seem to provide a way around that.

Did I miss any updates to the Spell?

Benefit

When choosing a familiar, you may add the following creatures to your list of options. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away from yours on each of the alignment axes (lawful-chaotic and good-evil).

I don't see Animal Companions, nor Special Mounts here.

But if you want a spell that proofs this, just look at Ghost Companion in this very build...
The spell's text explicitly calls AC, Familiar & Special Mounts as possible target out.
The AC type changes to undead (incorporeal). If that ain't prove enough I dunno.

And as said, by RAW you need to provide an "EX-rule" rule for the Animal Companion in the first place. Otherwise it's a simple Specific Trumps General situation, just like Wild Shaping after applying Enlarge Person. The "humanoid" check is only made once and not over the entire duration.
The rules will always tell you if something is tracked constantly and this is not the case for an AC's type.

______________________________

I still hope that you both somehow enjoyed the build.

And to everyone: I still appreciate any kind of feedback.
What did you like/dislike? Any other rules questions/debates?
What's your favorite part of the build?
and...
Who's the Boss?^^

Just let me know ^^

edit:
A side question: What other 1st and 2nd lvl (cleric) spells come to your mind when you have infinite spellslots to fuel em? I really struggled to find any good suggestion besides the few mentioned in the build. I fell like that there is some undiscovered potential to the Absorb Fear combo here.
Any suggestions are welcome!

**Crake** · 2023-10-21, 03:36 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg

1. The quote makes clear that not all warbeast need to be reared, which contradicts your argument chain entirely.
2. An AC also doesn't need to be reared. It is already under your command and thus domestic. You just train it some (bonus) tricks and that's it. Or do you force your druid and ranger players to rear their new AC for a year before use?
3. The text tells you that warbeasts have higher Handle Animal DC's. I don't get how that should affect anything here (except the higher DC's)?

This doesn't really give you a point for your side of the argument. Domestic animals are already docile due to years of breeding in cooperative traits, which is why they don't need to be specially reared, just like all domestic animals, but the fact that it has to even specify that means that it must already be a warbeast to begin with, because otherwise non domestic animals would not require special rearing either.

The template even uses the warhorse as an example of what a warbeast is, and the warhorse is a COMPLETELY separate creature to the regular horse, because it is a different breed of animal. You cannot turn a regular horse into a warhorse, because warhorses were bred for war.

**Chronos** · 2023-10-21, 08:11 AM (ISO 8601)

Quoth Gruftzwerg:

Did I miss any updates to the Spell?

That looks like a feat you're quoting, not a spell. The Planar Familiar spell was from one of the web articles (which makes it now very difficult to find-- Anyone with better archive-fu than me?). It was a cleric-only spell, that can be cast only on your own familiar, animal companion, or mount (so what the intended use case was is beyond me). I think it might have had an XP cost, but since it's something you only need to cast once, that doesn't matter much.

**Gruftzwerg** · 2023-10-22, 02:06 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Crake

This doesn't really give you a point for your side of the argument. Domestic animals are already docile due to years of breeding in cooperative traits, which is why they don't need to be specially reared, just like all domestic animals, but the fact that it has to even specify that means that it must already be a warbeast to begin with, because otherwise non domestic animals would not require special rearing either.

1. Domestic is undefined in 3.5
2. As such, we have to see it in context.

And the context here is that it is used as opposite to "wild animal that needs to be reared".
And an Animal Companion doesn't need to be reared just like a domestic animal (you could say that the AC is a specific case here).

The template even uses the warhorse as an example of what a warbeast is, and the warhorse is a COMPLETELY separate creature to the regular horse, because it is a different breed of animal. You cannot turn a regular horse into a warhorse, because warhorses were bred for war.

The template tells you that there are specific cases of "war creatures" which are indeed specific breeds by nature. And on these you can't further apply the warbeast template anymore. (note that it doesn't even deny you to apply the warbeast template onto their regular versions: e.g. a warbeast "horse" by RAW; RAI may differ here).

Originally Posted by Chronos

That looks like a feat you're quoting, not a spell. The Planar Familiar spell was from one of the web articles (which makes it now very difficult to find-- Anyone with better archive-fu than me?). It was a cleric-only spell, that can be cast only on your own familiar, animal companion, or mount (so what the intended use case was is beyond me). I think it might have had an XP cost, but since it's something you only need to cast once, that doesn't matter much.

Thanks and added onto my ToDo list ^^
I'll try to look it up. Sounds interesting. (and maybe I even saw I once. I'm quite unsure as of the moment I kinda vaguely seem to remember it...)

But as said, imho Ghost Companion fits the very same purpose here as argument and can be much easier found.

**Chronos** · 2023-10-22, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)

If nothing else, Ghost Companion becomes available later. And adding the Fiendish template and the Ghost template is better than just the Ghost template.

**Gruftzwerg** · 2023-10-24, 06:53 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Chronos

If nothing else, Ghost Companion becomes available later. And adding the Fiendish template and the Ghost template is better than just the Ghost template.

I've checked the spell Planar Familiar, but under strict RAW it doesn't work for this build...

In order to cast this spell, you must have a familiar, special mount, animal companion, or other companion acquired as a class ability.

1. Wild Cohort doesn't give us the animal companion ability but is just "another companion" ability.
2. Wild Cohort is a feat and not a class ability.

Sad. Would have been a good addition due to the SR it provides and would fit the fluff too...

______________________

Mini Update coming soon. I've found some real gems to enhance the build =)

edit: I'm still looking for good 1st and 2nd lvl cleric spells that are especially interesting when you have infinite spellslots to fuel em. Suggestions are welcome.

edit 2: The build doesn't rely on Wild Cohort but on an ACF and that was just my mistake... sorry for that :p

**Gruftzwerg** · 2023-10-24, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)

Update is out and consists of 2 parts:

part 1: (see OP)
- exchanged Divine Magician's 1st lvl pick (former "Shield") to True Casting
- added the spell Adoration of the Frightful (3rd lvl)
- added the spell Rain of Terror (3rd lvl)

part 2: (see post #2)

- Absorb Fear Combo: good uses for the infinite 1st and 2nd lvl spellslots
- "Final Conclusion" added

__________________________________________________ _________________

While the build was already at a broken powerlvl, now it is almost impossible to resist the build. And the chances and options to fight back have been further reduced.

I hope you like the changes as much as I do.

Feedback (and suggestions for 1st & 2nd lvl spells) is still welcome :)

**Chronos** · 2023-10-24, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)

I thought you were getting Yoshi via a cleric alternate class feature that trades away Turn Undead for a companion (as half your druid level)?

**Crake** · 2023-10-24, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Chronos

I thought you were getting Yoshi via a cleric alternate class feature that trades away Turn Undead for a companion (as half your druid level)?

Yeah, wild cohort isnt even in the stub at all

**Gruftzwerg** · 2023-10-24, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Chronos

I thought you were getting Yoshi via a cleric alternate class feature that trades away Turn Undead for a companion (as half your druid level)?

Originally Posted by Crake

Yeah, wild cohort isnt even in the stub at all

Doh..., that happens when you try to make updates while being half-asleep...

I was toying around with Wild Cohort for about 90% of the production time and Cleric-Shaman was a last minute switch...^^
Totally forgot about that while being in half-asleep mode and doing the update...

Sorry for the mistake and thanks for pointing it out..^^

I guess I will include the Fiendish template in the next mini update..

_______________________________________

May I ask you both how you feel about the other changes and additions?

And at everybody else, Feedback is welcome. (and looking for suggestions for infinite 1st & 2nd lvl spellslots)

**Crake** · 2023-10-25, 12:12 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg

Doh..., that happens when you try to make updates while being half-asleep...

I was toying around with Wild Cohort for about 90% of the production time and Cleric-Shaman was a last minute switch...^^
Totally forgot about that while being in half-asleep mode and doing the update...

Sorry for the mistake and thanks for pointing it out..^^

I guess I will include the Fiendish template in the next mini update..

_______________________________________

May I ask you both how you feel about the other changes and additions?

And at everybody else, Feedback is welcome. (and looking for suggestions for infinite 1st & 2nd lvl spellslots)

Well, I disagree with the main premise of the build even being raw legal, so I dont really have much to add, as I feel the build’s foundation isnt steady

**Gruftzwerg** · 2023-10-25, 04:42 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Crake

Well, I disagree with the main premise of the build even being raw legal, so I dont really have much to add, as I feel the build’s foundation isnt steady

I have to kindly ask if you are still talking about specifically the warbeast template or any type change at all?

If it's the warbeast template, it doesn't have a real impact on the main build/combos and is mostly irrelevant.

If you are arguing that an Animal Companion may not change type at all after acquisition, I kindly request you to show that rule.
There is no Ex-Animal Companion rule that constantly checks if your Animal Companion is still an animal by type.

And we have spells that explicitly do that exactly as proof that you don't lose your AC for doing so. Otherwise they would have needed a specific callout to ignore the general rule and the the AC still remains your AC. (or do you wanna argue that all those things are dysfunctional to stick to your claim?)

It's a normal specific trumps general situation and spells like Ghost Companion and Planar Familiar create a are more specific situation. Same for any template that is applied.

What happens if I cast Enlarge Person and Polymorph into a non humanoid type later on? Does the Enlarge Person effect gets canceled now because I'm no longer a humanoid? No, because the check is done once and not over the duration of the effect.

Same here, the check for the AC is made on acquiring the AC and not over the effects duration. There is no indicator for an ongoing check here.

**JNAProductions** · 2023-10-25, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg

And we have spells that explicitly do that exactly as proof that you don't lose your AC for doing so. Otherwise they would have needed a specific callout to ignore the general rule and the the AC still remains your AC. (or do you wanna argue that all those things are dysfunctional to stick to your claim?)

It'd be sort of like making a class explicitly for Beholders, but also thinking that Beholders taking that class isn't allowed by the rules.

Plus, 3.5 is not known for its perfect editing, or the rules writers' perfect knowledge of rules. There are dysfunctions in 3.5-who's to say this isn't one of them?

**Crake** · 2023-10-25, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg

And we have spells that explicitly do that exactly as proof that you don't lose your AC for doing so. Otherwise they would have needed a specific callout to ignore the general rule and the the AC still remains your AC. (or do you wanna argue that all those things are dysfunctional to stick to your claim?)

It's a normal specific trumps general situation and spells like Ghost Companion and Planar Familiar create a are more specific situation. Same for any template that is applied.

Correct, you’re right, ghost companion and planar familiar do create EXPLICIT allowances. Beast of bane on the other hand, does not. It in fact, creates a special case for using it on OTHER’S companions as a means of breaking their bond and taking control of the creature for yourself.

Warbeast is a whole other discussion, one that Ive had too many times to care enough to engage in it any longer. Its largely irrelevant in this case, but its usually just used by people who heard it from the previous person who said it was good, without actually going to read the rules themselves, so its like one of those self propagating, completely false urban myths that people choose to believe rather than reading what its actually about

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TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

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Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

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Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

Re: TO: Bane's Chosen "Pawn of a Spawn" - a Halloween special

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