Use Magic Device

[Nostri]

So I was thinking about it and got to wondering, just how useful is Use Magic/Psionic Device? I know in theory that you can build many an uber skill monkey around the skill but I have yet to hear of anyone actually use the skill much beyond lower levels when their wizard or cleric bit it earlier and they need to use his wands to finish off the big bad.

So I guess my question is this- does anyone actually see alot of playtime for UMD? (With all the "roles" in a party covered that is, no saying 'well this party had no wizard so I made a UMDer for fill in the gap'.)

[Hario]

Extremely useful for many different builds. Melee builds don't use it too much, but rogues and bards get quite a few uses out of it, need a spell to do something a wand or scroll will get it done. Don't want to waste money on potions, scrolls or wands will cover it. Though Most healing isn't too needed with the MIC's Healing belts (ridiculously under priced IMHO). It is probably my 3rd most used skill behind sense motive and spot/listen (which I put together since it makes sense)

[loopy]

My rogue dual-wields a rapier and wand of scorching ray, so I've found plenty of uses for it.

Its also amusing when you roll a 1 on your "surprise ambush fireball" and nuke the bush that you are in.

[Chronos]

I don't think that UMD should be used to replace the wizard's role, since that's very expensive and not very efficient. It should instead be used to make your rogue even rogueier, or your bard even bardier, etc. For instance, consider Antimagic Field. It's not much use to a wizard (assuming no metamagic shaping of it), since it prevents him from casting any other spell. But give a rogue a scroll of Antimagic Field, and all of his own abilities still work just fine, but the abilities of the most dangerous folks around him don't. Acid Splash, Reduce Person, and Silence all also work significantly better for rogues than for their regular casters.

[sikyon]

It is much unused, but it is the most powerful skill. Spells > anything else, UMD grants access to that, therefore UMD most powerful skill. Save diplomacy.

[Forrestfire]

use magic device is used in my party to replace a cleric.


there are also some really cheesy builds over on the WotC boards where the character uses the use magic device skill to fool a staff into thinking tht the character in question has a CL of 60-70.

[BardicDuelist]

If my character has UMD on his class skill list, I take it. When the DM rolls for random items and you get a scroll of some random spell, it is always nice to have somone who can use it. It also gives the casters a needed backup for when they are out of action or didn't prepare the right spell, your skill monkey can whip it out and go.

[Fax Celestis]

I always put points in UMD, since it can mean down the line that you can use items you normally couldn't, whether it be because of class, racial, or even spellcasting ability requirements.

[Delta Nu Delta]

It is probably my 3rd most used skill behind sense motive and spot/listen (which I put together since it makes sense)

Unintentional pun alert! Brilliant!

And UMD is awesome. People hinted at it, but it makes rogues even more awesome sauce. Need extra healing? Give some scrolls/wands to the rogue. Need extra buffing? Scribe the scrolls for the rogue. Need someone to make the most out of that Rod of Detect Metal? Well, that's your DMs fault for slavishly following the random loot tables and then stubbornly designing countless encounters around that damn thing so we couldn't ever sell it. UMD doesn't really help there. But overall it's great!

[Aquillion]

It can also be used in a case where the party needs to throw down a whole bunch of spells in a single turn -- for instance, you could Silence the area while the wizard traps everything inside. And, of course, since individual scrolls tend to be cheap, there's no reason not to grab one or two of anything that might be useful in an emergency.

For rogues, another major factor is that any sort of ranged attack roll within 30 feet will let them apply sneak attack damage. That means that a cheap wand of ray of cold can be an easy way for a melee rogue to switch to decent ranged damage in a pinch. Not good enough damage to rely on, but it doesn't require any investment beyond a handful of gold and a skill you should have already, so it makes a nice backup option.

Even better, sneak attack with a Ray of Enfeeblement. It's a cheap first-level spell, no saving throw (so it'll keep working even on tougher creatures), no essential CL-dependant variables (does 1d6 str damage and lasts a full minute even at CL 1), and since it makes an attack roll you get to do full sneak attack damage while crippling the victim's str.

[Methabroax]

Hi, this is my first post on the boards....

That out of the way, I can't imagine a DM allowing a ray of enfeeblement (which does no damage) allowing you to get your sneak attack damage added onto it. It's nonsensical to want to add extra damage onto something that doesnt do damage in the first place. The whole point of getting sneak attack bonus damage is that you stab them in the extra squishy spot for bonus owieness. If you arent doing any damage in the first place, how is it supposed to hurt more?

My two cents,

Methabroax

[Mewtarthio]

I don't believe penalties count, but if a weapon does actual ability damage, the sneak attack damage is considered untyped (I believe).

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I don't believe penalties count, but if a weapon does actual ability damage, the sneak attack damage is considered untyped (I believe).

Ability Damage and Energy Drain sneak attacks deals the additional damage as negative energy damage.

Spells that just adds a penalty, such as RoE, does not qualify for sneak attack damage.

(The rules can be found in Complete Arcane)

[Mewtarthio]

Wait, so shivering touch can heal the undead if a rogue UMDs it?

Not that shivering touch should ever appear in any way, shape, or form, of course.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Wait, so shivering touch can heal the undead if a rogue UMDs it?

Not that shivering touch should ever appear in any way, shape, or form, of course.

No, since Undead are immune to ability damage to its physical ability scores, so you cannot make a sneak attack with such a spell.

In addition, Undeads are also normally immune to sneak attacks.

[Saph]

My wizard/loremaster has Use Magic Device maxed-out and boosted as far as it'll go. Mostly I use it for activating cure wands (you can never have too many healers in a party) but it's also handy for activating scrolls of cleric spells. Like Resurrection, say. Not many wizards can say they've brought a party member back from the dead. :)

It's a flexibility thing - it gives your character lots more options. Definitely the strongest skill out there, the only downside is that it's pretty much useless until you have a check modifier of at least +15 to +20.

- Saph

[Skjaldbakka]

In addition, Undeads are also normally immune to sneak attacks.

So you could cast grave strike and then sneak attack with say, a vampiric touch to heal both your minion and yourself.

How you're getting all those spells and sneak attack, not sure, but maybe . . Black Flame Zealot?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

So you could cast grave strike and then sneak attack with say, a vampiric touch to heal both your minion and yourself.

Except that Vampiric Touch would not benefit you undead minion.

[Skjaldbakka]

*looks at Vampiric Touch* *d'oh!*

Well, you could make your inflict wounds really efficient anyway. Can you voluntarily sneak attack yourself? Is the sillyness of a gravestrike + inflict light wounds + sneak attack for an undead rogue possible?

[Grizzled Gryphon]

Possible? Maybe. As a DM, I wouldn't allow it, though.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

*looks at Vampiric Touch* *d'oh!*

Well, you could make your inflict wounds really efficient anyway. Can you voluntarily sneak attack yourself? Is the sillyness of a gravestrike + inflict light wounds + sneak attack for an undead rogue possible?

It is not that easy to sneak attack yourself, but it could be done with a little effort (assuming your DM would allow it, which I would generally advice against).

Even though you cannot flank or surprise yourself (unless you generally don't know what you are doing), you can still put yourself in a situation were you are denied your dex to ac, like when you are climbing or balancing.

[Duke of URL]

So I was thinking about it and got to wondering, just how useful is Use Magic/Psionic Device? I know in theory that you can build many an uber skill monkey around the skill but I have yet to hear of anyone actually use the skill much beyond lower levels when their wizard or cleric bit it earlier and they need to use his wands to finish off the big bad.

So I guess my question is this- does anyone actually see alot of playtime for UMD? (With all the "roles" in a party covered that is, no saying 'well this party had no wizard so I made a UMDer for fill in the gap'.)

Well, there's always the Artificer and crafting Warlocks who rely on the skill quite heavily...

[geek_2049]

UMD is awesome at high levels. A player can in/effectively become a partial/full spellcaster. Scrolls are expensive and they are not as likely to penetrate SR, but at high lvls money is irrelevant and one can use scrolls for buffs.

Rgs can take full advantage of the clericzilla melee buffs. With a DC29 UMD on a Divine Power a rg can get a fighter's BAB. Foresight guarantee's your rg will always act in a surprise rnd. Spell Turning anyone? The clr need not survive every fight when your rg can use a scroll of raise dead or true res. These are just PHB spells so far.

[Larrin]

you can still put yourself in a situation were you are denied your dex to ac, like when you are climbing or balancing.

Or you could just, you know, hold still. I'm pretty sure people who are intentionally not moving at all are denied their dex bonus, espeacially from themselves. RAW doesn't seem to mention this explicitly, but a paralyzed person and a person who faithfully acts as if he is paralyzed should really follow the same rules...

on the otherhand, sneak attack requires that you do damage, and since undead aren't damaged by negative energy you can't gravestrike+neg dmg+ sneak attack heal yourself any more than a living human could cure wounds+sneak attack to heal for extra. The same rule forbids both.

[Curmudgeon]

Or you could just, you know, hold still. I'm pretty sure people who are intentionally not moving at all are denied their dex bonus, espeacially from themselves. RAW doesn't seem to mention this explicitly, but a paralyzed person and a person who faithfully acts as if he is paralyzed should really follow the same rules...

How exactly does "faithfully acts as if he is paralyzed" work? A paralyzed person doesn't jerk back automatically when somebody swings a sword at them, or recoil in pain when they take damage. I don't see any way to act paralyzed without being paralyzed.

[Skjaldbakka]

How exactly does "faithfully acts as if he is paralyzed" work? A paralyzed person doesn't jerk back automatically when somebody swings a sword at them, or recoil in pain when they take damage. I don't see any way to act paralyzed without being paralyzed.

Are you trying to apply common sense to this? Don't bother. Are you actually saying that a rogue shouldn't be able to stab themself in the kidney, because he can't technically catch himself flat-footed?

The whole "negative energy doesn't deal damage to undead, and thus sneak attack won't apply" statement renders that moot, but seriously?

[Jerthanis]

I've played a rogue as a primary healer once, using UMD with Cure Light Wounds wands... Went through more than half of its charges in a 4 session long game... that took place over the in-game time of about two days. A rogue/swashbuckler in a game I ran once remade as a Wizard because they were casting more spells off wands than actually swinging swords or using non UMD skills.

UMD gets a lot of play in our group.

on the otherhand, sneak attack requires that you do damage, and since undead aren't damaged by negative energy you can't gravestrike+neg dmg+ sneak attack heal yourself any more than a living human could cure wounds+sneak attack to heal for extra. The same rule forbids both.

I'm about 50% sure you CAN sneak attack with Cure Spells, and they do Positive Energy Damage to living creatures with them. Thus, a Sneak-Attack Cure Light Wounds would heal 1d8+cleric level while doing Xd6 sneak attack damage. Similarly, an Inflict Light sneak attack would do something in the order of 1d8+cleric level negative energy damage.. +Xd6 negative energy sneak attack damage... which on undead would be converted to healing...

...in other words, as ridiculous as this is, I think it might work.

[olelia]

A. There is no attack roll.

B. The spell isn't CASUING damage...it's healing it.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

C. If the players want to continue the argument then let them sneak attack with a cure spell. Have them roll the cure damage...and then deal them the sneak attack damage on top of that as per the ability. It slighly makes sense because your stabbing them with your finger in a vital spot...the damage will probably negate each other but it would end the converstation relativly quickly.

[Telonius]

Or you could just, you know, hold still. I'm pretty sure people who are intentionally not moving at all are denied their dex bonus, espeacially from themselves. RAW doesn't seem to mention this explicitly, but a paralyzed person and a person who faithfully acts as if he is paralyzed should really follow the same rules...

on the otherhand, sneak attack requires that you do damage, and since undead aren't damaged by negative energy you can't gravestrike+neg dmg+ sneak attack heal yourself any more than a living human could cure wounds+sneak attack to heal for extra. The same rule forbids both.

You could deliberately close your eyes, put a bucket on your head, etc. You're now invisible to yourself, so no dex to AC.

(I should be ashamed of that suggestion).

Though to turn this on its head ... suppose a Cleric/Rogue has a Gravestrike spell active on them, is attacking something he doesn't know is a vampire (perhaps because of an illusion), and somehow uses an Inflict spell in an attempt to damage the vampire. Would the vampire be healed normal damage, or sneak attack?

[Duke of URL]

B. The spell isn't CASUING damage...it's healing it.

Undead are damaged by positive energy. Of course, they typically are immune to Sneak Attack anyway.