I'm probably going to kill SOMEthing with this question...

[Serpentine]

If bringing questions of physics into D&D/fantasy kills catgirls, what does biology do?
Anyway, something occurred to me (read: was pointed out) a while ago. In D&D most of the notorious Underdark creatures (drow, duegar, cloakers, etc.) are black or at least darker than their Overdark relatives. In "real life", however, almost everything that has evolved for a subterranean lifestyle are white or pale. So why the discrepancy? It's a trend that's pretty well known. Was there a reason the creators went the other way? A precedent in some saga or fairytale somewhere? A milky-white drow could be just as creepy and alien as an ebony one, so why the ignoring of a fairly well-known real phenomenon?

[Tormsskull]

If bringing questions of physics into D&D/fantasy kills catgirls, what does biology do?

It causes biology majors and people who think they know biology to come on and discuss the exact scientific reasons why such a thing might be plausible.

Anyway, something occurred to me (read: was pointed out) a while ago. In D&D most of the notorious Underdark creatures (drow, duegar, cloakers, etc.) are black or at least darker than their Overdark relatives. In "real life", however, almost everything that has evolved for a subterranean lifestyle are white or pale. So why the discrepancy? It's a trend that's pretty well known. Was there a reason the creators went the other way? A precedent in some saga or fairytale somewhere? A milky-white drow could be just as creepy and alien as an ebony one, so why the ignoring of a fairly well-known real phenomenon?

Honestly, IMO I think this harkens back to the days of all creatures that are evil are black. Light versus Darkness and all that. Therefore, since most of the creatures that live underground are evil, the designers named the area the "Underdark".

I don't think the fantasy designers/writers were all that concerned with RL biology/evolution and such.

[Mordokai]

I think the reason Tormsskull pointed out is the correct one. Also, at least drow are supposed to be sexy and hot, and I think black elves look hotter than pale ones. Or maybe that's just me

[Matthew]

It's supposedly based on scandanavian legends. However, it's very common for evil to be metaphorically or literally associated with darkness. Orcs in Tolkien are occasionally described in this way and demons in medieval texts are very often described as black.

There's also the conception of the Underdark as the 'Underworld', which is to say a figurative hell.

[MrEdwardNigma]

I think it's got something to do with camouflage, probably. Drow and such live in tunnel systems, accessible by normal humans, so if one fo them gets in there, they need camouflage. A palish white creature would stand out against all the black, while an ebony one would easily sneak up on a human and kill it.

[Hyozo]

If bringing questions of physics into D&D/fantasy kills catgirls, what does biology do?

Create aging and maximum age rules?

Anyway, let's look at it in a more Darwinian way. There are two types of Drow (or other underdark creature): White and Black. Some natural predator comes, and the white Drow are more noticeable in the dark environment. The predator finds it easier to kill the white Drow, so while the white Drow start to die off, the better adapted black Drow grow in population. Eventually the white Drow die off/ move to the surface, the predator, which has addapted in an environment where white drow could be it's primary food source, dies off(with the exception of the ones which have adapted to the point where a different food source is available), and the black Drow remain.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The natural selection explanation is the most likely. However, the real question is, how do dwarves with no access to sunlight or fish manage to avoid vitamin D deficiency? We know they do so because they are famous for having strong bones, not weak ones, but there is no logical reason for them not to break limbs hitting those rocks.

[Theodoxus]

It should also be noted that most all pale/white/albino underground dwellers are blind. Spending resources on pigmentation when you have no ability to perceive it is bad form. Look at the underground dwellers that aren't blind and you find a myriad of color (and a lot of black to boot): bats, moles, worms, groundhogs, prairie dogs, meerkats, etc.

I think because the races in question are humanoid, they have some - albeit extremely limited - contact with the surface. This would tend to keep them from moving completely into the albino spectrum.

One question my wife always had was 'where do they get their vitamin D?'

edit: freaky ninja! who knew Vit D deficiency was so popular!

[Darrin]

Anyway, something occurred to me (read: was pointed out) a while ago. In D&D most of the notorious Underdark creatures (drow, duegar, cloakers, etc.) are black or at least darker than their Overdark relatives. In "real life", however, almost everything that has evolved for a subterranean lifestyle are white or pale.

The easy answer is Gygax had a very limited color palette. The original modules were in black and white, some of them just mimeographs and crude photocopies. Two-color offset printing back then was new-fangled and crazy-advanced for the hobby. For a while, monochrome or two-color covers were standard. When TSR started using color artwork on their module covers, the drow were originally blue, since black was being used for the outline color.

The more complicated answer is darkvision completely changes how pigmentation works in underground environments. In the real world, organisms don't waste valuable energy on producing pigmentation in lightless environments, that's energy they can better use elsewhere. But if darkvision allows you to "see", even in only black-and-white, then albinism or bright colors would be very non-adaptive in such an environment. Dark skin that more closely matches the background would prevent enemies from seeing you clearly. Although depending on the dominant color of rock when viewed via darkvision, you might expect to see a lot more grey... and some creatures would still use bright colors for warning or mating purposes.

But yeah, the original thinking on a lot of these creatures was probably black = evil.

[Anteros]

The Drow were black skinned before being driven underground. As far as duergar and other underground races go...arent they kind've a grayish color?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

The Underdark should probably have been named the Under-Shadowy Illumination. There is all kinds of glow-in-the-dark fungus and the Drows have their artificial sun that provides at least shadowy illumination....

[Keld Denar]

The Underdark should probably have been named the Under-Shadowy Illumination. There is all kinds of glow-in-the-dark fungus and the Drows have their artificial sun that provides at least shadowy illumination....

By that respect, the 2nd level spell Darkness should be called Shadowy Illumination as well, since instead of blotting out light, it actually creates it. The discription of darkness states that the area is filled with shadowy illumination.

Ironically, casting Darkness in total lightlessness actually provides illumination.

EDIT: To provide something meaningful to the topic, I'd have to agree with the dark=evil thing. Drow are notable for having white hair, not something condusive to the whole "hiding in the underdark" kind of thing. Well, unless you were wearing a helmet or cape or something...like a pwafi or however you spell it.

[Freelance Henchman]

I think it's got something to do with camouflage, probably. Drow and such live in tunnel systems, accessible by normal humans, so if one fo them gets in there, they need camouflage. A palish white creature would stand out against all the black, while an ebony one would easily sneak up on a human and kill it.

I always supposed that Darkvision is vision in infrared. Thing is, a black body will radiate more heat than a white one (I think, thats what I remember from physics). So a darkvision stealther should be snow-white, not black, unless he radiates no heat at all. Unless a white body will reflect the ambient infrared and would look mirror-rish in Darkvision. Or something.

[Serpentine]

I think it's got something to do with camouflage, probably. Drow and such live in tunnel systems, accessible by normal humans, so if one fo them gets in there, they need camouflage. A palish white creature would stand out against all the black, while an ebony one would easily sneak up on a human and kill it.

This could happen in the real world, too, though, but it doesn't.
These, however:

It should also be noted that most all pale/white/albino underground dwellers are blind. Spending resources on pigmentation when you have no ability to perceive it is bad form. Look at the underground dwellers that aren't blind and you find a myriad of color (and a lot of black to boot): bats, moles, worms, groundhogs, prairie dogs, meerkats, etc.

The more complicated answer is darkvision completely changes how pigmentation works in underground environments. In the real world, organisms don't waste valuable energy on producing pigmentation in lightless environments, that's energy they can better use elsewhere. But if darkvision allows you to "see", even in only black-and-white, then albinism or bright colors would be very non-adaptive in such an environment. Dark skin that more closely matches the background would prevent enemies from seeing you clearly. Although depending on the dominant color of rock when viewed via darkvision, you might expect to see a lot more grey... and some creatures would still use bright colors for warning or mating purposes.

work for me. Thanks everybody

The question of vitamin D is, indeed, an interesting one...

[fendrin]

I always supposed that Darkvision is vision in infrared. Thing is, a black body will radiate more heat than a white one (I think, thats what I remember from physics). So a darkvision stealther should be snow-white, not black, unless he radiates no heat at all. Unless a white body will reflect the ambient infrared and would look mirror-rish in Darkvision. Or something.

I think you are thinking of black bodies as in "black body radiation" which doesn't have all that much to do with color. Basically, a "black body" in physics is an object that absorbs all electromagnetic radiation that falls on it. Now, seeing that when we see an object, it is the light reflecting off of it that we actually see, that means a "black body" is technically invisible, though it still casts a shadow.

To bring that back to infravision, all that absorbed energy has to go somewhere, and like most excess energy, it is converted into kinetic energy on the molecular level, eg heat. Therefore, "black bodies" radiate a LOT of heat.

So a "black body" is either invisible or a shadow to regular vision, and extremely highly visible to infravision.

Ok, so I know physics a bit better than biology, and it really as nothing to do with the topic of the thread...

[Bender]

I always supposed that Darkvision is vision in infrared. Thing is, a black body will radiate more heat than a white one (I think, thats what I remember from physics). So a darkvision stealther should be snow-white, not black, unless he radiates no heat at all. Unless a white body will reflect the ambient infrared and would look mirror-rish in Darkvision. Or something.

First of all, I remember reading somewhere that darkvision no longer works that way, but I don't remember how official the source was.
Secondly, a black body doesn't radiate more heat than a white, it absorbs more heat, and it radiates a nicer spectrum ('black body' spectrum).
thirdly, any warmblooded creature is in general much hotter than the background, and is going to be very visible in infrared, regardless of it's colour

about the vitamine D: obviously it is in dwarven ale, in some kind of mushrooms they eat, or their bodies can produce it without help.
edit: in fact, how do moles do it? they need strong bones to dig through earth too. (btw, they are as good as blind, so their vision doesn't explain why they have pigment)

[Badgerish]

As for Dwarves and vitamin D, you are thinking about it the wrong way. Instead of a surface-dwelling race that gets most of it's Vitamin D from the sun, then went underground; Dwarves are probably a naturally underground-dwelling race, thus making their own vitamin D naturally.
(which leads to an odd situation where if you are Vitamin D dependent and get forced to spend alot of time under ground, Dwarven flesh or milk could well be your best source

the svartalfs (which are either dwarves or dark-elves depending on different stories and translations) from sweadish folklore where dark-skinned as they worked and lived and forges and mines, thus covering them with soot and dust all the time.

[Ralfarius]

Dwarven milk

[Ashtar]

There are two major forms of vitamin D. D2 and D3. In itself, Vitamin D does nothing in the human body, it is only when it is converted into a hormone that it is useful.

D2 is derived from mushrooms, fungi and other plant sources. D3 is usually produced in animals by exposure to sunlight.

D3 is a more efficient (between 3 and 10 times) catalyst for hormone production in the human metabolism. But that simply means that to compensate you would need to eat much more D2 sources.

What do Drow eat? Mushrooms?

--
Edit:
3,5 ounces a day of fish cover 90% of daily value of VitD.
3 ounces of mushrooms provide around 10-13x the daily value of vitD.

[fendrin]

There are two major forms of vitamin D. D2 and D3. In itself, Vitamin D does nothing in the human body, it is only when it is converted into a hormone that it is useful.

D2 is derived from mushrooms, fungi and other plant sources. D3 is usually produced in animals by exposure to sunlight.

D3 is a more efficient (between 3 and 10 times) catalyst for hormone production in the human metabolism. But that simply means that to compensate you would need to eat much more D2 sources.

What do Drow eat? Mushrooms?

Perhaps they have evolved to not need VitD?

[Freelance Henchman]

Dwarven flesh or milk

Dwarven milk has a frothy crown and is served in big earthenware mugs. Even to dwarven babies.

[Keld Denar]

Dwarven milk has a frothy crown and is served in big earthenware mugs. Even to dwarven babies.

Good sir, I believe you are confusing dwarven milk with dwarven holy water. Dwarven holy water is characterized by its deep golden color, frothy head when poored, bitter taste when sipped, and the confused state of mind leading to unconsiousness it produces when consumed in large quantities.

[Freelance Henchman]

Good sir, I believe you are confusing dwarven milk with dwarven holy water. Dwarven holy water is characterized by its deep golden color, frothy head when poored, bitter taste when sipped, and the confused state of mind leading to unconsiousness it produces when consumed in large quantities.

Well, the holy water is merely an attempt to reproduce the taste and chewey texture of dwarven mother's milk.

[Draz74]

It should also be noted that most all pale/white/albino underground dwellers are blind. Spending resources on pigmentation when you have no ability to perceive it is bad form. Look at the underground dwellers that aren't blind and you find a myriad of color (and a lot of black to boot): bats, moles, worms, groundhogs, prairie dogs, meerkats, etc.

Hmmm ... but most of these animals are color-blind. As are most brightly-colored surface animals. So apparently pigmentation isn't a wasted resource, even if you can't see (some of) your own pigmentation.

[Cuddly]

I think pigment is important in absorbing harmful radiation that will damage tissues.

But as to the OP, because dark things are evil.

[Cuddly]

The natural selection explanation is the most likely. However, the real question is, how do dwarves with no access to sunlight or fish manage to avoid vitamin D deficiency? We know they do so because they are famous for having strong bones, not weak ones, but there is no logical reason for them not to break limbs hitting those rocks.

Clearly they can synthesize themselves.

[Zenos]

About the vitamin D, maybe underground rivers/lakes, or mushrooms as somebody suggested before me?

[Artanis]

Or maybe they just don't need Vitamin D in the first place. Hell, we have giant flying lizards that eat rocks and breath lightning, so what's so weird about something not needing a certain vitamin?

[Dervag]

The natural selection explanation is the most likely. However, the real question is, how do dwarves with no access to sunlight or fish manage to avoid vitamin D deficiency? We know they do so because they are famous for having strong bones, not weak ones, but there is no logical reason for them not to break limbs hitting those rocks.

Maybe they produce vitamin D in some way unrelated to sunlight. There almost have to be other ways to synthesize that chemical, and there is no reason to assume that human and dwarven biochemistry work in the same way.

I always supposed that Darkvision is vision in infrared. Thing is, a black body will radiate more heat than a white one (I think, thats what I remember from physics). So a darkvision stealther should be snow-white, not black, unless he radiates no heat at all. Unless a white body will reflect the ambient infrared and would look mirror-rish in Darkvision. Or something.

Doesn't work that way.

Thermal radiation due to temperature is called "blackbody radiation" but that doesn't mean black objects radiate more of it when they're at the same temperature than white ones. It just means that the "blackbody radiation" is still being emitted even when the object is not emitting any light of any other colors. For instance, a red object will reflect red light in addition to its blackbody spectrum. A black object will emit only its blackbody spectrum. But if both objects are at the same temperature, they will have the same blackbody spectrum.

If there's sunlight and stuff around, then black objects will absorb more light from their surroundings and therefore have a higher surface temperature, but that doesn't apply to warm-blooded creatures anyway and it isn't relevant underground.

Also, there are some arguments why Darkvision shouldn't be infrared. Infrared light doesn't stop dead in its tracks at 60 feet, and it doesn't allow you to distinguish between two objects of the same size and temperature- so, for instance, you can't use infrared light to tell the difference between a drow and a normal elf.

I think you are thinking of black bodies as in "black body radiation" which doesn't have all that much to do with color. Basically, a "black body" in physics is an object that absorbs all electromagnetic radiation that falls on it. Now, seeing that when we see an object, it is the light reflecting off of it that we actually see, that means a "black body" is technically invisible, though it still casts a shadow.

Nah, you could still see it. It would look black, because it's a place in your field of view where there is nothing visible. But your description is accurate.

To bring that back to infravision, all that absorbed energy has to go somewhere, and like most excess energy, it is converted into kinetic energy on the molecular level, eg heat. Therefore, "black bodies" radiate a LOT of heat.

They don't necessarily radiate a lot more heat than ordinary objects of the same temperature; our eyes are highly sensitive to 'visible' light (i.e. the kind we evolved to see). So if an object radiates even a small percentage of its total excess energy as 'visible' light, we'll see that percentage.

Also, if you heat a black body enough, its thermal radiation will enter the spectrum of light we can see- so it starts to glow red, then yellow, then blue-white.

Dwarven milk has a frothy crown and is served in big earthenware mugs. Even to dwarven babies.

You win.

[hamlet]

Originally, Drow had "Ultravision" which was an enhanced version of infravision. As my one DM so quaintly put it: "A Drow can see the hot air from a fart at 150 paces."

Gygax himself mentioned that most of the time, "real world biology" was not a factor in how the monsters of the game were created. After all, where, exactly, in the grand scheme of real biology does a Centaur fit? Or, for that matter, an elf.

Most of the time, he drew inspiration from real world myth and "symbology" (not an actual word, but you get the picture). The dark skinned and evil creature dwelling beneath the earth is a common image and one that resonates with the audience of the time. Maybe less so now since, well, all you new plyers are freaks.

Personally, I've always wanted to create a Drow society where they are completely albino and even more lithe than now (does anybody else find Drow curiously over-muscular?), almost skeletal. Their eyes would be larger and reflect light frighteningly, but would be blind to vision as we know it, only seeing in the infra-red and a little of the ultra-violet.

But my players would crucify me if I did.