Sorcerors teaching wizards

[Feralgeist]

Is this possible, fluff wise? For example a sorceror demonstrating and talking about magic to a person, while they take notes for wizardry.

[olelia]

You can teach the wizard all you want but the difference between the wizard and the sorcerer are that the sorcerer's power comes to him naturally...he doesn't work hard for it or anything like that...its his power by blood. The wizard on the otherhand can be any joe schmoe who just studied his heart out to obtain the power that sorcerers wield so freely.

[Telonius]

I assume this is for the purposes of a Wizard learning a new spell. I think a magic demonstration would make sense for learning a new spell. I'd make the Wizard do a Spellcraft check to see if he figures it out, same as if he were trying to copy a spell into his spellbook. (No bonuses from specialty school, or synergy from UMD; I'd still allow synergy from Knowledge Arcana). Maybe give him a bonus to the check if he casts Detect Magic while the Sorc is casting. It would be kind of like hooking the Sorc up to an gadget and having him do his thing, measuring it and figuring out how to replicate that.

[Feralgeist]

uh, no. it's actually just to gain levels in the class.
Mentioned in another thread (Help achieving Immortality) My warblade is going to gish it wizard style. i was just wondering if someone studied magic, could they become a wizard, even if the magic they studied was not coming from the same source as they would use it

[AstralFire]

uh, no. it's actually just to gain levels in the class.
Mentioned in another thread (Help achieving Immortality) My warblade is going to gish it wizard style. i was just wondering if someone studied magic, could they become a wizard, even if the magic they studied was not coming from the same source as they would use it

Arcane Magic all comes from the same source, the means of accessing it are different.

Arcane Magic is an ambient reservoir of predetermined effects, Divine Magic is a received supply from above, and Psionics is an inner power manifested externally.

While a Sorcerer couldn't necessarily teach someone how to read or write Vancian magic (unless they themselves can), someone who is otherwise able to learn the most basic fundamentals could watch a Sorcerer and learn how to apply those techniques in their own way. Especially a Martial Adept who's familiar with idea of taking a technique from one discipline and applying it to another.

You could say you just have a natural intuition for the words of magic, and once you started observing your teammate more closely, you were able to start putting it all together with his instruction.

[Craig1f]

You can teach the wizard all you want but the difference between the wizard and the sorcerer are that the sorcerer's power comes to him naturally...he doesn't work hard for it or anything like that...its his power by blood. The wizard on the otherhand can be any joe schmoe who just studied his heart out to obtain the power that sorcerers wield so freely.

Any Joe Schmoe with a sufficient Intellect.

I would say a 14 is the lowest INT a character should have and even consider taking the Wizard class. Really, a 15 or 16 is about what it should be.

[AstralFire]

Any Joe Schmoe with a sufficient Intellect.

I would say a 14 is the lowest INT a character should have and even consider taking the Wizard class. Really, a 15 or 16 is about what it should be.

Nah.

12.

I agree for player characters - not below a 16. But for NPCs who don't get above level 6 or 7, 12 Int is neither uncommon, nor a strict limiting factor if they don't focus on save-based spells.

[Worira]

Except that they can't cast spells over second level.

[SoD]

So? They're NPCs. Not all NPC wizards have to be going around with 26 int. Some everyday people with int of 12 (or lower) might want to become wizards.

[kpenguin]

Except that they can't cast spells over second level.

How many non-adventurers actually get over 3rd level, anyway?

[AstralFire]

Except that they can't cast spells over second level.

A point in Int at levels 4 and 8 give them access to all spells they can cast. I meant a *base* Int of 12, which is, again, not uncommon.

[Worira]

Quite a few in FR, less in Eberron, I believe.

EDIT: That was to kpenguin.

And astralfire, how so? That lets them cast 4th level spells. Sure, they could get higher with a tome, but not easily.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yes, but if they're not going to get past level 9 or so, they don't need an Int over 14, since they won't get more than fourth level spells from their class levels, is his point.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

This explains the problems of a multi-class.

[AstralFire]

Yes, but if they're not going to get past level 9 or so, they don't need an Int over 14, since they won't get more than fourth level spells from their class levels, is his point.

Correct. In NPC life, you don't have nearly as much freedom in your stats as a PC. But sometimes, even if you don't have talent in it, you just wanna be a wizard. And maybe it is the best choice for you. 6 Str/9 Dex/8 Con/12 Int/11 Wis/11 Cha doesn't lend itself to anything but Wizard.

(And as an unintended thing, 12 Int is still technically enough to hit 9th level spells - go through three age categories. Though that really wasn't what I meant.)

[Worira]

Fair enough, super-mighty wizards of doom tend to be old anyway.

[Craig1f]

I would say that a Wizard would "study" a Sorcerer, but the Sorcerer would not make a good teacher.

[Emperor Demonking]

It depends on whether or not your DM says that wizards or sorcerers cast spells differently. I think normally he could learn from the sorcerer.

[Nerd-o-rama]

In my imagination regarding most campaign settings, Arcane Magic was "discovered" by sorcerers, and later scientifically studied and refined by wizards. This makes sense as sorcerers access arcane power naturally, and wizards do it through rote and research.

Thus, at least at some point in history, a Wizard sat down and learned how to cast spells by looking at what a sorcerer did and copying it, then writing down what he did so he could do it again the next day (note that this is as close as D&D gets to the scientific method). It makes some sort of sense for a Wizard to be trained (get his natural 2 spells per level) by a Sorcerer, but I'm not sure if anyone but the most dedicated researcher could scribe spells based solely on observing a sorcerer.

[Tallis]

If it were my game I'd say no. A sorcerer doesn't cast spells the same way a wizard does. No spellbook, no preperation, no studying new spells. He can't teach someone else to do something he can't do himself.

Ultimately it's up to your DM though.

[Cuddly]

If it were my game I'd say no. A sorcerer doesn't cast spells the same way a wizard does. No spellbook, no preperation, no studying new spells. He can't teach someone else to do something he can't do himself.

Ultimately it's up to your DM though.

Do you also have a spellcraft penalty for wizards trying to figure out what spells a sorcerer is casting?

[AstralFire]

If it were my game I'd say no. A sorcerer doesn't cast spells the same way a wizard does. No spellbook, no preperation, no studying new spells. He can't teach someone else to do something he can't do himself.

Ultimately it's up to your DM though.

Being taught by-the-book Judo from someone who's a master of Hap Ki Do will not be as effective as being taught it by someone who's a master of Judo.

Regardless, it's much more effective than someone totally untrained trying to learn it on their own.

[Inyssius Tor]

I think sorcerers can't directly teach wizards in the arcane skills that wizards use; although sorcerers and wizards both manipulate the same energy, they do so in mostly different ways. Wizards need to construct elaborate mental machinery and fiddle with very delicate focusing mechanisms in order to cajole the universe into doing what they want; sorcerers just push the Weave until it gives.

If a wizard had the inherent sorcerous power required to be a sorcerer, a sorcerer might be able to help the wizard unlock that power--but that would result in a level of sorcerer, not wizard. Perhaps a wizard might be able to glean an unusual perspective, or some limited understanding of the Way Things Work, from a sorcerer, but that probably wouldn't be enough XP to gain a level.

Through observation (detect magic would help with this, and arcane sight would help a great deal), a wizard might be able to mimic a sorcerer's spells. It wouldn't be near as easy as copying from a spellbook, though, since the entire back end of the spell, where sorcerers just push and wizards go through all sorts of complex rituals, would need to be invented from scratch.

One potential danger of learning from a sorcerer is that the sorcerer has it all wrong. See, wizards need to really know what they're doing--really grok the workings of the universe through long hours of study and observation. Sorcerers don't need any of that, since the Weave (or whatever) is practically tripping all over itself to give them power. As a result, two-thirds of sorcery comes from instinctive "gut feelings", and the rest is mostly just believing that the magic they're working will work. That belief can come from all kinds of ridiculous mumbo-jumbo, though, from Being Filled With The Great Dragon's Breath to--well, the sky's the limit.

Cuddly: I don't. The front-end of the spell, the part that actually hurls great blasts of fire at one's enemies, is still pretty similar. In fact, it might be a little easier for a wizard to identify it, because sorcerous spells are generally that much simpler. Sorcerers don't have to waste effort on complicated mechanisms to power their spells, because they already have it in spades.