Warblade//Wizard Gestalt optimization

[Thyatira3902]

I'm putting together a character for an upcoming campaign. I'm a little new on the whole ToB stuff with maneuvers and whatnot. I saw that a lot of their abilities are based on INT which would pair up with the Wizard casting ability.

Anyway, I was hoping someone could help me set up this character with maneuvers and stances and whatnot. I'm pretty open to suggestions on PrC's and feats and stuff. I'm not really sure what would work best. also, what should i specialize in as a caster? It's a gish i guess, but i haven't heard of anyone trying this yet, and i haven't found anything on it. I know warblades in the book are kind of against spell casting, but it just seemed too good to pass up.

thanks for the help.

[FinalJustice]

I am not really experienced with ToB or Gestalt, but as a general advice, I suggest that you make good use of swift actions and quickened spells for buff/utility (like a swift action Batman) and dish damage using standard/full round actions. If this kind of cheese is allowed, you can use Easy Metamagic (Quicken) from Dragon Magazine to lower Quicken Spell to +3, and then try getting into Incantatrix PrC to lower it to +2.

[tyckspoon]

If you can use psionics, consider making the spellcasting half of your progression a Psion instead. It maintains the stat synergy, but power manifestation isn't restricted by armor so you can use the Warblade's armor proficiency without taking extra steps to get around the spell failure chance. It will also let you use Concentration to become psionically focused, which can be used for several nifty things, depending on feat selection. One of the options it allows without any additional feat or spell at all is expending it to take 15 on a Concentration check, which works nicely with a lot of Diamond Mind maneuvers.

[Stam]

Dude? With that combo, and in a gestalt game, what the heck do you need optimization for?

You're better than a Fighter. You're also Batman. Everything's pouring off of your Int, and you've got more options for laying down the smack than demigods or minor deities.

Heck, just pick your flavor of hurt.

[Draz74]

I agree with Tyckspoon: focus on Diamond Mind maneuvers and get your Concentration check super high. This is true if you stick with Wizard, but even more true if you switch to Psion.

Psion isn't as versatile as Wizard, since it has a limited number of powers known, but IMHO it's more fun (especially since in a Gestalt game you're probably not hurting for being versatile anyway). You don't need to worry about having the right number of each spell prepared, and you can cast more low-level "spells" (powers) and less high-level powers or vice versa, depending on the needs of the day. But in contrast to other classes that have spontaneous full casting or manifesting (Sorcerer, Wilder, Beguiler, Warmage, Favored Soul), your main stat is still Intelligence, and you still get new levels of powers at odd numbered levels rather than getting delayed a level. So you're the closest thing to a spontaneous wizard.

All of which the OP probably knew already ... so sorry for getting carried away.

[Thyatira3902]

The psion's an interesting idea. i like the concept, but i don't think my DM allows for it. I'll look at the diamond Mind stuff. Any other recommendations for those?

Also, what do you think about the Jade Phoenix PrC? Worth it with two spell caster levels lost for some extra interesting stuff or not really?

[SadisticFishing]

Jade Phoenix on one side, Eternal Blade on the other. Eternal Blade's int-ness is amazing, and play it as a Grey Elf with Weapon Finesse.

3 Swashbuckler levels in there somewhere isn't a bad either, and neither is Swiftblade, though slightly less optimized, it's cool

[Reinboom]

Jade Phoenix on one side, Eternal Blade on the other. Eternal Blade's int-ness is amazing, and play it as a Grey Elf with Weapon Finesse.

3 Swashbuckler levels in there somewhere isn't a bad either, and neither is Swiftblade, though slightly less optimized, it's cool

can't, because:

A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class.

[Draz74]

Jade Phoenix on one side, Eternal Blade on the other. Eternal Blade's int-ness is amazing, and play it as a Grey Elf with Weapon Finesse.

3 Swashbuckler levels in there somewhere isn't a bad either, and neither is Swiftblade, though slightly less optimized, it's cool

Well, if we're going to get into crazy multiclassing, then Factotum's awfully tempting too.

Factotum 8/Swashbuckler 3/Warblade 9//Wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/Jade Phoenix Mage 5 anyone?

[Sucrose]

Well, if psions aren't allowed, depending on what spells you want, Beguiler might be another caster side option; it at least can cast in light armor.

I will say this: if you're going to stick with Wizard/Warblade, invest in either a Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt, or the mage armor spells, or use out of combat spells and long duration buffs, though taking your armor off and putting it back on might make things troublesome for the last of these.

Finally, I third the motion of Diamond Mind; the thing's flavor is incredibly easy to balance with arcane magic, and it runs off of Concentration, which you'll need anyway!

[tyckspoon]

Well, if we're going to get into crazy multiclassing, then Factotum's awfully tempting too.

Factotum 8/Swashbuckler 3/Warblade 9//Wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/Jade Phoenix Mage 5 anyone?

I wouldn't drop that much Warblade. Factotum *is* awesome, but 8 levels is more than a dip; that'd be better for a skillmonkey design. Dual-progression classes like Mystic Theurge (and Jade Phoenix Mage- it progresses maneuvers and spells, right?) also usually aren't allowed in gestalt, in order to avoid classes that end up looking like Cleric caster 30/Wizard caster 20 or similar. The rules suggest also barring BAB/Spell progression classes like Eldritch Knight, which seems unnecessarily harsh to me, especially if the other side of the Gestalt is already a full BAB class.

It might be worth taking some levels of Spellsword (Complete Warrior) on the Wizard side. It lets you ignore an increasing amount of arcane spell failure percentage; combine with Mithral (and possibly Feycraft) and eventually you should be able to wear full plate and still cast reliably. With the default requirements, you'll be able to enter it after Wizard 4. You might prefer to take Wizard 5 anyway for the bonus feat.

Speaking of feats: These normally aren't much use for Wizards, but you might look into Eschew Materials and Somatic Weaponry. Weapon and possibly shield will be filling your hands; Somatic Weaponry lets you do somatic components with your weapon, and eschew materials lets you ignore non-costly components (which should be most of the spells you cast) so you don't have to worry about getting a free hand to hold material components with.

[Swooper]

If you can use psionics, consider making the spellcasting half of your progression a Psion instead. It maintains the stat synergy, but power manifestation isn't restricted by armor so you can use the Warblade's armor proficiency without taking extra steps to get around the spell failure chance. It will also let you use Concentration to become psionically focused, which can be used for several nifty things, depending on feat selection. One of the options it allows without any additional feat or spell at all is expending it to take 15 on a Concentration check, which works nicely with a lot of Diamond Mind maneuvers.

You just made me want to play a warblade//psion. Damn you. Because, I likely never will be able to.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

if you wanna milk that Int for all it is worth...try to do some of your second class tree into Deulist and Bladesinger...if I remmeber right duelist gets canny defense and adds int to defense as well as dex (armor is limited), and bladesinger does something with Int as well...a bonus to AC or Damage...not sure if they ever translated it to 3.5 though...a monk's belt or 1 level in monk would also be amusing as it would then add your wisdom into your AC as well...

Mmmm...warblade//Psion just seems deliciously sadistic.

I do say, i like the whole 'fighter/mage' idea when i do a gestalt class...reminds me of playing an elf in 1st and 2nd ed...in 3.5 one could fighter//mage then mage//eldritch knight for one level and eldritch knight//? for some more levels...perhaps monk or Ranger.

[WorthingSon]

Have you thought about Warmage instead of Wizard? Gives you int to spell damage, and allows you to cast in armor...

[AmberVael]

Have you thought about Warmage instead of Wizard? Gives you int to spell damage, and allows you to cast in armor...

It also effectively tattoos the word "pathetic" on your forehead, but I suppose it wouldn't be a bad class choice if he were aiming for a blaster.

Really though, blaster wouldn't be too good of a choice- I'm not saying it because blasters are unoptimized (which they are) but instead because he's already got all his kickass warblade boosts to deal damage. He doesn't need damage spells with his other class. He'll have this sword labeled "+5 Sword of Extra Ownage (with a side order of fries)" and he pretty much can't chop with it and throw fireballs at the same time. Why spend an entire class to focus on something that would be redundant?
As such, the best sort of synergy would be either finding other spells to boost him, getting battlefield control spells, summoning, using divination out of combat, blah blah blah (insert anything that doesn't truly overlap with his warblade abilities right here).
And those things can't be done by a Warmage.

[Ryshan Ynrith]

The Swiftblade (link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) fares pretty well in gestalt, I've found. It does have a few issues; if you take it for your full BaB progression, you lose HD, and if you take it for your casting progression, you lose caster levels, but think of it: you can have full casting, full Bab, and haste now does all this: Cast as a free action 1/round (no level increase), gives you 50% miss chance from attacks and single-target spells, Freedom of Movement, cannot be dispelled, lets you walk on water, gives you a free standard action every round(!) and can be prepared in a higher slot to act as Time Stop. With 9th-level spells from a full wizard progression, it's a guaranteed 4 rounds.

Plus you get your arcane spellcasting mod to initiative, which is nice, but the best thing for a gestalt is the extra action every round, which lets you cast AND full attack. Going to run a Wizard//Swashbuckler-Swiftblade in a new campaign tomorrow, in fact, using this concept.



Edit: Realize this may not be ideal for a Warblade, due to lost initiator levels, but it's still pretty good-you'll have to decide if it's worth losing 5 initiator levels and the maneuvers that go along with them.

[Keld Denar]

One of the problems with ToB//Wizard Gestalts is suprisingly the limited number of swift actions you can take in a round....which is one. So you can't cast a swift spell (wraithstrike) AND use a boost, which a good number of warblade manuvers are. AFAIK, all boosts are swift actions, as is stance dancing. Counters are immediate and consume your swift action for the following round. Combining swift spells (or quickened spells) and strikes could be an interesting idea though. Just something to think about when you come up with the ZOMGUBER combo, only to realize that you are taking 2-3 swift actions in a round.

Quickened True Strike + Mountain Tombstone Strike + full 2hand Power Attack.....splat

[icthius]

So...you're a gestalt of a Warblade and a Wizard and you want to get MORE powerful? Are you sure you're not ruining the game for the DM and the rest of the players?

[Thyatira3902]

thanks for all the help.

Haha, yeah, i guess i want to make it even stronger. I'm trying this out in a group that's really good at breaking characters. The DM should be pretty good with regulating everything. I've been talking to him about all of this.

I really like that swiftblade class, it really interesting, but i would say it's losing too many caster lvls.

I'm realizing quickly the lack of feats for this character. one of the main ones i'm going to get will be quicken spell. I'm still thinking about the jade phoenix stuff. i really like the abilities. This really helps though.

[Draz74]

I wouldn't drop that much Warblade. Factotum *is* awesome, but 8 levels is more than a dip; that'd be better for a skillmonkey design.

Well, the way Tome of Battle multiclassing works, I didn't think the multiclassing would actually hurt the Warblade all that much. Actually I guess it will, since this build can't ever get 8th or 9th-level maneuvers. But it will still have a decent number of maneuvers, with good selection, up to 7th level stuff. It all depends what you're after ... because Factotum 8 is the minimum to allow you an extra standard action once per encounter. Which is huge, when that standard action can be either a strike or an extra non-Quickened spell.

Whatever. Factotum is still a tempting dip, even if it's just for 1 or 3 levels.

Dual-progression classes like Mystic Theurge (and Jade Phoenix Mage- it progresses maneuvers and spells, right?) also usually aren't allowed in gestalt,

Right. I forgot that JPM would probably be considered one of those PrCs. I didn't think my build over enough apparently.

So...you're a gestalt of a Warblade and a Wizard and you want to get MORE powerful? Are you sure you're not ruining the game for the DM and the rest of the players?

Intelligent DMs who are allowing Gestalt make sure the characters need to be Gestalt. It should be a very challenging game.

Besides, Warblade//Wizard isn't as nasty as Swordsage//Druid.

I'm realizing quickly the lack of feats for this character. one of the main ones i'm going to get will be quicken spell. I'm still thinking about the jade phoenix stuff. i really like the abilities. This really helps though.

As tyckspoon pointed out, JPM may not actually be allowed in Gestalt. Ask your DM.

Also, Quicken Spell is normally a must-have, but I personally wouldn't use it in this combo, when you already have plenty of stances and boosts to use up your swift actions on.

[The Mormegil]

Full channeler (just got to try it, I know it isn't what you want nor optimized, but I wanted to try it, ok?)

Duskblade 3/Warblade 1/Archivist 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Spellsword 10/Ordained Champion 3/Eldritch Knight 1 // Wizard 3 / Master Specialist 3 / Incantatrix 10 / Archmage 4

With Smiting Spell and a Spell Storing weapon he can wreck havoc on enemies, plus get Inferno Blade for extra awesomeness... JPM ability and arcane strike to oost it even higher, and Alternative Spell Source feat to channel at will with Ordained Champion.

[Thyatira3902]

JPM doesn't work, talked with the DM. You're right about it for gestalt. I guess i never really looked at it.

with the gestalt thing, you're right, the DM knows what he's doing, especially with munchkins and whatnot in the party and he's gonna give us a run for our money if i know him as well as i think i do. we play a lot together and he's been itchin to do this new campaign setting.

I'm really trying to make this guy a tank of sorts with the spells and warblade stuff. I wanted to go with wizard simply because i've never played one and i've only ever played one casting class before. so for this i'm figuring an easier way to try it out is to have a tank with spell casting ability.

it might be better to just go straight up for both classes. I thought about incantrix as a good option for the wiz side. If that were the case i'd drop illusion and enchantment as prohibited schools.

also, should i still focus on diamond mind or are there some other good options to pick from?

[The White Knight]

Edit: Realize this may not be ideal for a Warblade, due to lost initiator levels, but it's still pretty good-you'll have to decide if it's worth losing 5 initiator levels and the maneuvers that go along with them.

Taking Warblade and Swiftblade on one side of the progression with Wizard and Warblade on the other (Wizard levels when no spellcasting progression is given from Swiftblade, and Warblade levels when they are) ought to give you sufficient CL and IL by the end, as each time you add a level in Warblade, half your recently acquired IL-dead levels will be added to your IL.

Warblade 5/Swiftblade 10/Warblade 5 //
Wizard 6/Warblade 2/Wizard 1/Warblade 2/Wizard 1/Warblade 2/Wizard 6

Lvl:     Classes:                IL/CL
1-5      Warblade/Wizard          5/5
 6       Swiftblade/Wizard        5/6
 7       Swiftblade/Warblade      6/7
 8       Swiftblade/Warblade      7/8
 9       Swiftblade/Wizard        7/9
10       Swiftblade/Warblade      9/10
11       Swiftblade/Warblade     10/11
12       Swiftblade/Wizard       10/12
13       Swiftblade/Warblade     11/13
14       Swiftblade/Warblade     12/14
15       Swiftblade/Wizard       12/15
16       Warblade/Wizard         14/16
17-20    Warblade/Wizard         18/20

For added fun, change a desired number of Wizard levels from 16-20 to Archmage levels (if you can stomach the pre-requisites) for such fun as Reach Spell and increased CL. A one level dip into Spellsword can give you some helpful ASF reduction, too.

[Thyatira3902]

Taking Warblade and Swiftblade on one side of the progression with Wizard and Warblade on the other (Wizard levels when no spellcasting progression is given from Swiftblade, and Warblade levels when they are) ought to give you sufficient CL and IL by the end, as each time you add a level in Warblade, half your recently acquired IL-dead levels will be added to your IL.

how does the half IL with outside lvls work? i can't seem to find it.

[Aquillion]

So...you're a gestalt of a Warblade and a Wizard and you want to get MORE powerful? Are you sure you're not ruining the game for the DM and the rest of the players?

Warblade // Wizard is actually not 'optimal' Gestalt anyway, since your two paths (while powerful) are mostly just going to be two seperate options rather than supporting each other directly. There will be some overlap with swift actions, of course, but the really broken Gestalt combinations are able to constantly use the abilities from both sides at once. Warblade // Wizard is strong, but no moreso than any other Gestalt of two decent classes.

And I'm not sure Swiftblade is allowed in Gestalt, either, if you want to be strict. Remember:

Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.

The Swiftblade is basically like the Eldritch Knight in this respect.

[The White Knight]

how does the half IL with outside lvls work? i can't seem to find it.

ToB, page 39, bottom left corner under the "Multiclass Characters" heading.


@ Aquillion re Gestalt validity:

Perhaps. Swiftblade gives up a few more spellcasting levels in exchange for flavorful abilities, so some might see it in a different light than the usually outlawed hybrid PrCs. I'd probably agree with you, though.

[tyckspoon]

ToB, page 39, bottom left corner under the "Multiclass Characters" heading.


@ Aquillion re Gestalt validity:

Perhaps. Swiftblade gives up a few more spellcasting levels in exchange for flavorful abilities, so some might see it in a different light than the usually outlawed hybrid PrCs. I'd probably agree with you, though.

What the class is a 'hybrid' of is just spellcasting and a full BAB. Personally, I would allow you to take it if one half of your gestalt is already a full BAB/high hit-die class; you're not really gaining anything extra from the 'combination' class there. Going Fighter//Wizard/Eldritch Knight, for example, is fairly pointless and harmless. More modern gishing classes have benefits that are worth getting, but the BAB still isn't a big deal since it's already being advanced as quickly as it can be on the fightery side. I would probably just require that the PrC be taken on the Wizard side of the progression.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Psions work well with Warblades in gestalt because they are not restricted by armor.

An interesting combination would be to use the Erudite variant with the Spells to Power variant at Wizard's since it is Intelligence based without ASF and you can cherry pick your limited daily usage powers from a large power list each that isn't fixed like a standard psion or sorcerer. (Fast Healing 1 at low levels for 1 PP, Heal (5th level Adept) for 9PP, Limited Wish 13 PP + 300 experience points, Miracle 17 PP.

I'd recommend taking the Hidden Talent feat and choosing Astral Construct for a freebie always ready useful psionic power.

Warblade-14/Erudite-14 would be strong and lots of PRCing options on either side depending on what you want the PC to do.

If psionics are not an option Beguiler-1, Spec Wizard -1, Master Specialist - 3 (or Beguiler -4, Spec Wiz-1), Ultimate Magus - 10 is permitted in gestalt.

Use the Flaws variant so you can take practiced spellcaster twice on one spellcasting side to personal taste and get some spell fueled meta casting.

[brian c]

Dual-progression classes like Mystic Theurge (and Jade Phoenix Mage- it progresses maneuvers and spells, right?) also usually aren't allowed in gestalt, in order to avoid classes that end up looking like Cleric caster 30/Wizard caster 20 or similar. The rules suggest also barring BAB/Spell progression classes like Eldritch Knight, which seems unnecessarily harsh to me, especially if the other side of the Gestalt is already a full BAB class.

Actually, the rules only suggest banning dual-progression classes like Mystic Theurge. It's entirely up to the DM (well, technically everything is, but this is an instance where the rules say "It's up to the DM"). I don't know where you're seeing the rules suggest banning Eldricth Knight

[tyckspoon]

Actually, the rules only suggest banning dual-progression classes like Mystic Theurge. It's entirely up to the DM (well, technically everything is, but this is an instance where the rules say "It's up to the DM"). I don't know where you're seeing the rules suggest banning Eldricth Knight

Huh? It's mentioned right after Arcane Trickster and Mystic Theurge. And as I said, my personal opinion would be to allow Eldritch Knight and other full BAB/spellcasting "hybrids" as long as you aren't attempting to double up on spellcasting progression; BAB can't be doubled by gestalting, so it doesn't matter if you have two full BAB classes.