Concerning Elves

[RSP]

If I had to try and justify it, I'd go with saying that elves around age 20 were encouraged to go out and adventure. Many will die, but the ones who do return will come back with knowledge, broadened perspectives, and most importantly a good chunk of levels. It helps make them slightly alien, and also helps make elves look badass when every adult elf happens to be a seasoned ex-adventurer.

But wouldn’t that then mean elves from 50-750 are all at least tier 2 in some class or equivalent, but more likely tier 3 or 4? This has the world building issue of if every adult elf has years as an adventurer under their belt, why would elves ever have issues needing handling by level 1 adventurers?

Not to mention having a PC elf that’s 125 years old means you’re starting with 100 years adventuring experience…

[JackPhoenix]

But wouldn’t that then mean elves from 50-750 are all at least tier 2 in some class or equivalent, but more likely tier 3 or 4? This has the world building issue of if every adult elf has years as an adventurer under their belt, why would elves ever have issues needing handling by level 1 adventurers?

Not to mention having a PC elf that’s 125 years old means you’re starting with 100 years adventuring experience…

That assumes they've been actively adventuring for 100 years, which is not appropriate background for a level 1 character, not anymore than being a human who's been doing the same for 30 years. If they've been running around stabbing orcs for 5 years, and then settled down on a farm or something for 80 years, the orc-stabbing skills will be long forgotten.

Skills that aren't actively used and maintained are lost. There's nothing suggesting the elves are an exception.

Is there an equivalent of the old adept or magewright classes?

No. NPCs don't have classes. Adept (weak divine caster) can be covered by Acolyte stat block, or just give commoners few spells (that's how Magewrights work per E:RftLW... just a commoner with few appropriate spells).

[RSP]

That assumes they've been actively adventuring for 100 years, which is not appropriate background for a level 1 character, not anymore than being a human who's been doing the same for 30 years. If they've been running around stabbing orcs for 5 years, and then settled down on a farm or something for 80 years, the orc-stabbing skills will be long forgotten.

Skills that aren't actively used and maintained are lost. There's nothing suggesting the elves are an exception.

So adventurer for 5 years and farmer for 80+ is still going to be way more skilled than shown as a level 1 PC…(do any of the premade adventures even take 1 year? And how many levels are gained over that time? If every adult elf has 5x that experience adventuring, then their societies will be way better equipped to handle issues than a human one.

And 5 years as an adventurer is going to have an impact. We have sayings like “Once a Marine, always a Marine” for a reason: and it’s not because what’s learned over a time training/ fighting goes away after a year or two.

It just seems like the only ways to play an elf PC logically is the “20 year old run away teenager”. Or dump Int hard and play into it.

[Segev]

So adventurer for 5 years and farmer for 80+ is still going to be way more skilled than shown as a level 1 PC…(do any of the premade adventures even take 1 year? And how many levels are gained over that time? If every adult elf has 5x that experience adventuring, then their societies will be way better equipped to handle issues than a human one.

And 5 years as an adventurer is going to have an impact. We have sayings like “Once a Marine, always a Marine” for a reason: and it’s not because what’s learned over a time training/ fighting goes away after a year or two.

It just seems like the only ways to play an elf PC logically is the “20 year old run away teenager”. Or dump Int hard and play into it.

You could go with elves just aging that slowly, so they aren't even "young teen" looking until their late 90s. Sure, they might pick up a lot more life experience than humans, but physically and emotionally and even mentally, they aren't mature until they are 115-130 or so. 115 is maybe 15 to 20 equivalent in humans. So they are only just getting to the point that they don't think girls (or boys) are icky, and are just getting to the point where most can really train executive function without supervision. The 125-year-old Elf is a studious and mature 19-equivalent who has the discipline to self-motivate his wizardry or warrior studies and NOT flip out and try to prove he's the toughest thing since dwarf bread at the first insult.

Sure, there are exceptions. The tragic kid rogue who grew up too fast on the mean streets is a trope for a reason. But most elves, in this formulation, are not 'stupid' or the like any more than human kids are. It is more than time that goes into maturity; biology and the development of the brian plays a huge role, too.

[Rukelnikov]

No. NPCs don't have classes. Adept (weak divine caster) can be covered by Acolyte stat block, or just give commoners few spells (that's how Magewrights work per E:RftLW... just a commoner with few appropriate spells).

Not true, the Sidekick classes are specifically designed for NPCs, plus even in the DMG its stated NPCs can have classes.

[DragonEyeSeeker]

EGG would have been better off not including them in the game. (And yes, I played my share of hobbit thieves back in the day).

I generally agree with this. No edition of D&D has ever really done anything interesting with Halflings as a society. They either wind up being less interesting Hobbits or uninteresting river trader people (who are often thieves (or at least seen to be thieves)). There are far more interesting races you could insert into that coveted PHB Race slot.

Yeah, I find it odd that 5e PC elves have been alive for like a hundred twenty years already (“adulthood” for an elf), but have absolutely nothing to show for those extra years. And that just a young adult elf. If you play a middle aged elf (400 years old-ish), you better have a good story why you’re no more learned or experienced than a 18-year old human.

To a dog, humans take an entire life time just to become an adult. What are human babies doing in that time period other than wasting time?

[RSP]

You could go with elves just aging that slowly, so they aren't even "young teen" looking until their late 90s. Sure, they might pick up a lot more life experience than humans, but physically and emotionally and even mentally, they aren't mature until they are 115-130 or so. 115 is maybe 15 to 20 equivalent in humans. So they are only just getting to the point that they don't think girls (or boys) are icky, and are just getting to the point where most can really train executive function without supervision. The 125-year-old Elf is a studious and mature 19-equivalent who has the discipline to self-motivate his wizardry or warrior studies and NOT flip out and try to prove he's the toughest thing since dwarf bread at the first insult.

You could, but 5e doesn’t. And it still traps you in the “I’m just an 18 year old equivalent” backstory. VHumans, at least can take Skilled or Prodigy to show that they’ve spent time learning (were you wanting to be a 30-year old human, or just an extraordinarily skilled person).

And you still run into the issue of people actually learn a ridiculous lot during their childhood, probably at a greater rate than adults, who probably learn more in depth about fewer things than non-adults. Think of how much is learned from K-12. Now make that K-124…it doesn’t actually make it more reasonable.

It also doesn’t do anything for world building as you still have Elves being ridiculously more capable than humans, even if you exclude years 0–100. You still have nations full of people in their prime with 4-10 times the experience of the most apt humans.

To a dog, humans take an entire life time just to become an adult. What are human babies doing in that time period other than wasting time?

But dogs aren’t learning at the level of humans. I don’t know why you think this argument helps.

If you’re saying “real dogs=5e Humans”, and “real people=5e Elves”; then all you’re doing is pointing out how much better 5e elves should be over 5e humans.

By this model, an Elf PC should know so much more, understand so much more, that the span of it doesn’t fit within the 5e stystem. Literally, it would be the elf saying to the human: “I could sit here all day talking about the most basic, mundane elements of what I know, and you’d barely understand what I meant by ‘sit’.”

[Segev]

If you go with the Mordenkainen Tome of Foes explanation, the sub-centurion elf is more a prophetic waif type than a playable character, being an amalgam of childish innocence and ancient memories of past lives. The 100-year-old has finally had the final death of the ancient person he was born as, and is a vaguely-adultish person finally ready to learn something new in this lifetime. By 115 or 120, he's ready to be a normal adult with adequate training for adventuring or whatnot.

I personally hate this version, but it is technically canon for 5e.

[JackPhoenix]

So adventurer for 5 years and farmer for 80+ is still going to be way more skilled than shown as a level 1 PC…(do any of the premade adventures even take 1 year? And how many levels are gained over that time? If every adult elf has 5x that experience adventuring, then their societies will be way better equipped to handle issues than a human one.

Why? If he didn't practice adventuring skills for 80 years, those skills are gone. Maybe the elf's got vague memories what it was like fighting orcs, but without practice, that all he's got.
And you're the only one claiming EVERY adult elf has that experience.

And 5 years as an adventurer is going to have an impact.

Sure, but said impact may be "Well, this feels somewhat familiar, I think I've done this decades ago."

We have sayings like “Once a Marine, always a Marine” for a reason: and it’s not because what’s learned over a time training/ fighting goes away after a year or two.

Because it's more catchy piece of propaganda than "we eat crayons"?

[DragonEyeSeeker]

But dogs aren’t learning at the level of humans. I don’t know why you think this argument helps.

If you’re saying “real dogs=5e Humans”, and “real people=5e Elves”; then all you’re doing is pointing out how much better 5e elves should be over 5e humans.

By this model, an Elf PC should know so much more, understand so much more, that the span of it doesn’t fit within the 5e stystem. Literally, it would be the elf saying to the human: “I could sit here all day talking about the most basic, mundane elements of what I know, and you’d barely understand what I meant by ‘sit’.”

Elves are not real. The authors and DMs can input any number into the age chart and say "that is how it works in this world."

Ages in strict race/class-based games do not make much sense because, inherently, every character must be roughly balanced off against one another. A 14 year old half-orc wizard is exactly as competent as a 110 year old elf wizard.

In editions prior, the general hand waive that was done to justify this is that an Elf spends years perfectly mastering a given spell, performing it with exacting precision, where as a human learns the spell once and does his best to replicate it again the next time he casts the spell. If his hand motions and vocalizations were not exactly the same as the last time he cast the spell, who cares? So long as the spell was successfully cast, the human is happy.

[Anymage]

It also doesn’t do anything for world building as you still have Elves being ridiculously more capable than humans, even if you exclude years 0–100. You still have nations full of people in their prime with 4-10 times the experience of the most apt humans.

This is very much in keeping with the tolkienesque flavor that D&D elves are based on, where their society is basically filled with beings better than a human society could dream of. If you don't want that and want elves to be more like any other sort of folks you'll have to cut their age down appreciably.

At least it's not hard to explain why societies of high level elves rarely get involved. Between realizing that intervention often brings unexpected consequences and knowing that adventuring risks having all their accumulated experience and potential lifespan cut short, elves are often content to let shorter lived societies grow through issues on their own unless those issues are a pressing and immediate threat to the elves.

[RSP]

Why? If he didn't practice adventuring skills for 80 years, those skills are gone. Maybe the elf's got vague memories what it was like fighting orcs, but without practice, that all he's got.
And you're the only one claiming EVERY adult elf has that experience.

Every adult elf has experience well beyond what humans have, particularly younger adult humans. Skills don’t necessarily diminish the way you claim they do. Do people, in your experience, forget how to ride a bike? Or Swim? Or climb?

I still remember plenty of things I learned decades ago. I’m sorry if that’s not your experience.

[Skrum]

At the table I play at, a major piece of setting lore is a cataclysmic event some 1,000 years ago that spread through the elven kingdoms like a curse or disease. It lowered the life span of elves to 200 *at the very highest.* Elves in this world mature at the same rate as humans, and then live for some hundred years longer (or more likely, die to violence. Ain't easy being an elf).

Because yeah, as this thread demonstrates, there is no good answer or way to handle a playable race that only reaches maturity after most races are already dead.

[Sorinth]

And you still run into the issue of people actually learn a ridiculous lot during their childhood, probably at a greater rate than adults, who probably learn more in depth about fewer things than non-adults. Think of how much is learned from K-12. Now make that K-124…it doesn’t actually make it more reasonable.

Perhaps Elf School is only 2hrs a day so right off the bat it takes 4 times as many years to cover the same material. Plus there's likely a big loss in efficiency with more time spent refreshing previously taught material.

[RSP]

Perhaps Elf School is only 2hrs a day so right off the bat it takes 4 times as many years to cover the same material. Plus there's likely a big loss in efficiency with more time spent refreshing previously taught material.

Having to come up with these things just to make the race seem playable (even if only in school 2 hours a day, for some reason if inefficiency, they’re still doing stuff for the other 18 they’re not Trancing…oh, yeah, humans have 16 hours of awake time/day, while Elves have 20…so even if they didn’t live so much longer, they’d still have 25% more time to learn, but they have that AND decades more time…) is kind of the point.

Plus, your theory banks on middle aged people being less experienced than teenagers, because of a huge loss in efficiency in middle aged people having to constantly be refreshing material.

[KorvinStarmast]

That quote is attributed to Bruce Lee, maybe he ran out of things to teach, but still probably a cut above your regular black belt.

It's how golfers perfect certain shots. But they don't stick with "one kick" however they do tend to stick with one swing rhythm. Muscle memory allows certain things to be nearly reflexive and perfect at the same time. Bruce was a bit off with that remark, however, since he was a good enough fighter to know that what he needed to fear was not one kick, but a well practiced series of combinations. Going to another sport, Kobe Bryant (may he rest in peace) worked on perfecting hundreds of subtly different moves long before he played them on court. What we saw on camera/in game was the result of hours and hours he spent perfecting a variety of moves and shots.
Jack Nicklaus, back to golf, made hitting a one iron look easy. Why? He practiced it. And through practice he mastered it.

If you want to you can just assume that a human level 1 PC is an exceptionally capable human, while an Elf level 1 PC flunked out of adventurer school six times and all his childhood school buddies are now archmages or something.

Makes no sense. That many archmages running amok equals Tippyverse.

PCs ... are specifically selected to be people who've just reached level 1 in a PC class.

Correct.

Fighting in wars tend to have rather detrimental effect on one's lifespan.

So I hear. I wish someone would notify the rubes writing for Amazon's LotR Second Age series with a certain elf protagonist.

Commoners. That's your generic non-combatant statblock.

Yes. I wish more folks would embrace the idea that most folks met are commoners. (The modules do a good job of this, mostly, in 5e).

It’s unfortunately the only backstory that actually makes sense.

Only for those who lack imagination.

I generally agree with this. No edition of D&D has ever really done anything interesting with Halflings as a society.

Not much to work with.

Because it's more catchy piece of propaganda than "we eat crayons"?

I have it on good authority (from the lips of a very drunken lance corporal) that the different colors do each have a different taste.

[RSP]

Elves are not real. The authors and DMs can input any number into the age chart and say "that is how it works in this world."

Ages in strict race/class-based games do not make much sense because, inherently, every character must be roughly balanced off against one another. A 14 year old half-orc wizard is exactly as competent as a 110 year old elf wizard.

Right so the 14 year old half-orc is so exceptional they’ve surpassed the 110 year old elf, even though the elf has had a hundred years more of training, learning, experiencing.

So, again, you have to play a hard Int-dumped elf for it to make sense; and no elf PC can ever actually be considered exceptional seeing as how they’re so far behind, even if equal.

In editions prior, the general hand waive that was done to justify this is that an Elf spends years perfectly mastering a given spell, performing it with exacting precision, where as a human learns the spell once and does his best to replicate it again the next time he casts the spell. If his hand motions and vocalizations were not exactly the same as the last time he cast the spell, who cares? So long as the spell was successfully cast, the human is happy.

If that is supposed to mean elves learn things perfectly while humans don’t, shouldn’t they then be naturally Expertise in what they do know? Isn’t that what being an expert is: knowing something perfectly?

[KorvinStarmast]

Right so the 14 year old half-orc is so exceptional they’ve surpassed the 110 year old elf,

Back to humans in rubber masks, are we? May as well watch Star Trek, Deep Space Whine.

[RSP]

Back to humans in rubber masks, are we? May as well watch Star Trek, Deep Space Whine.

Other way around, I think: people fail to comceptualize what a 125 year old+ being would be like so it’s a shrug and “just like an 18 year old human I guess…”

[JackPhoenix]

If that is supposed to mean elves learn things perfectly while humans don’t, shouldn’t they then be naturally Expertise in what they do know? Isn’t that what being an expert is: knowing something perfectly?

Doing something the exactly the same way it was done before is not the same thing as doing it better.

[RSP]

Doing something the exactly the same way it was done before is not the same thing as doing it better.

Sure? What does that have to do with what I was responding to? The term used was “perfectly”. Are you saying humans not doing it perfectly is better than doing it perfectly???

Not sure where you’re going with this.

[Segev]

I mean, now we are starting in on the fact that a player character can go from a fresh apprentice or journeyman in his craft to the greatest master of his archetype in the world in a month, if a campaign is paced fast enough.

He was a half-orc rogue on the streets at level one, but picked up a spellbook at level three or four (maybe getting a level of Arcane Trickster in before multiclassing, maybe not) and is now level 20, with ninth level spells as a wizard 17 or 18 / rogue 2 or 3.

The elven druid in his party likewise went from apprentice initiate into a druid circle to arch druid greater than his Circle has seen in generations (of elves) in the same month.

The elf is barely an adult by hus people's standards, and has surpassed elders who are level 10 magi. The half-orc is still mid-puberty and is one of the most powerful and possibly magically knowledgeable beings in the setting!

[RSP]

I mean, now we are starting in on the fact that a player character can go from a fresh apprentice or journeyman in his craft to the greatest master of his archetype in the world in a month, if a campaign is paced fast enough.

Yes and no. I believe the idea for PCs is “this is the start of your adventuring career”. So, in theory, regardless of age, you haven’t started adventuring yet.

One poster mentioned explaining the elf issue, by suggesting the elves are encouraged to adventure at around age 20. If that’s the case, then you have a world building issue of the society of adult elves being filled with experienced adventurers of different levels.

How they progress during adventures is going to differ, but you would, I imagine, have different degrees of experience and ability.

Campaign timing and accelerated leveling is a different issue than how poorly elves as a race are shown in terms of how much actual experience they should have.

[Segev]

Yes and no. I believe the idea for PCs is “this is the start of your adventuring career”. So, in theory, regardless of age, you haven’t started adventuring yet.

One poster mentioned explaining the elf issue, by suggesting the elves are encouraged to adventure at around age 20. If that’s the case, then you have a world building issue of the society of adult elves being filled with experienced adventurers of different levels.

How they progress during adventures is going to differ, but you would, I imagine, have different degrees of experience and ability.

Campaign timing and accelerated leveling is a different issue than how poorly elves as a race are shown in terms of how much actual experience they should have.

Maybe, but if the primary advancement is through those concentrated weeks of adventuring, maybe nobody gets past level 1 without doing those adventures. They don't let their elven 'kids' out until they are 'adults.'

Remember that NPCs don't typically have 'class levels.' You could represent elves being that much more learned by having more archmagi and fewer apprentice wizards in their societies, though.

[Bohandas]

What if we kept the maturation rate the same but lowered the starting age for adventurers so you have just a bunch of tween looking adventurers running around like it was a cartoon show

[Sorinth]

Having to come up with these things just to make the race seem playable (even if only in school 2 hours a day, for some reason if inefficiency, they’re still doing stuff for the other 18 they’re not Trancing…oh, yeah, humans have 16 hours of awake time/day, while Elves have 20…so even if they didn’t live so much longer, they’d still have 25% more time to learn, but they have that AND decades more time…) is kind of the point.

Plus, your theory banks on middle aged people being less experienced than teenagers, because of a huge loss in efficiency in middle aged people having to constantly be refreshing material.

The race is playable regardless and is no more immersion breaking then a level 1 PC who is 40 year old human with the Soldier background who fought in many wars but is still level 1. Or the level 1 Fighter who left the family farm two days ago but is proficient with weapons and armour they've never even seen before.

The point is more that the assumption of a human work ethic probably isn't going to be true for an elf. If they spend those extra hours gossiping with friends they won't have learnt new skills or become experts at their day job despite all the extra years. You have to put in real work to get better, just because they have the time to put in that work doesn't mean they have actually done it.

[Bohandas]

If they spend those extra hours gossiping with friends they won't have learnt new skills

Sorry, I'm not super familiar with 5e, does 5e also not have social interaction skills anymore? Some equivalent of diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, gather information, etc.?

[Sorinth]

Sorry, I'm not super familiar with 5e, does 5e also not have social interaction skills anymore? Some equivalent of diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, gather information, etc.?

Does gossiping with friends for a 100 years actually going to make you generally good at Persuasion or Deception? I'd say no unless it's with those specific friends in which case advantage seems appropriate.

[RedMage125]

But 50 years doing anything is going to be much more proficient than a 20-something year old human would have, in terms of knowing what you were doing. If a human PC begins the story at 25-years old, that’s about 5-10 years of life being accounted for by their Background

Aide-expectancy comparably aged Elf, is starting that campaign at about 175. Even if only accounting for the last 50 years, that’s still 5-10 times the years being accounted for by the background.

I’m not saying the game should change, but it certainly doesn’t make sense that the 175-year old Elf has the same breath of life experience (“proficiencies”) as a 20-ish human.

As far as the fiction layer, as I recall from The Complete Book Of Elves (2e), Races of the Wild (3.5e), and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes (5e), they all specify that elves reach physical maturity at the same rate as humans. At which point. Aging basically stops for a few hundred years. RoW explicitly said that even another elf can't tell a 30 yo elf from a 150 yo one.

What I haven't seen anyone mention is that the starting age assumes that the elf was raised in elf society. The difference is cultural. Elves place almost no pressure at all on their young adults to be productive members of society. They spend decades studying art, music, sandwiches, whatever. This is a time for them to "find themselves". And, like has been mentioned, skills atrophy. So even if they spent 20 years as a master chef, they might not be able to do that as well anymore. And it's worth noting that Elf society is Chaotic Good as a whole. An entirely Chaotic society is difficult to imagine, but they don't feel the pressure to succeed, to contribute, or struggle with the logistics of survival like we do IRL.

They don't really buckle down and start focusing on anything related to adventuring until like 100 or so, maybe even later. So that same time frame as the human is accounting for background, 5-10 years, is about what an adult is looking at. And due to skill atrophy, they don't necessarily retain any proficiency with the things they did for the first 80-90 years of adulthood (or they weren't things that pertained to fantasy adventuring). Maybe spending 15 years smoking herbs with the local druid Grove dulled their skills or something. Except archery and swordplay, which are apparently mandatory to keep up on.

An elf raised among humans would probably have a lower starting age. My last elf PC was only 80, and he was a Monk with the Criminal background. He was raised in human society, became part of the local Thieves Guild, and when he got caught, his parents used their influence to send him to a monastery for a few decades, rather than go to prison. So he's still super young for an elf.

Some races, like Kobolds, make it worse. Kobolds reach adulthood at 6.

So a 6-year old Kobold, an 18-year old human, and a 100-year old elf all have the same breathe of life experiences, despite a dramatic difference in years lived.

Gnolls hit adulthood at 2!

[RSP]

Maybe, but if the primary advancement is through those concentrated weeks of adventuring, maybe nobody gets past level 1 without doing those adventures. They don't let their elven 'kids' out until they are 'adults.'

Remember that NPCs don't typically have 'class levels.' You could represent elves being that much more learned by having more archmagi and fewer apprentice wizards in their societies, though.

Certainly PC advancement is much faster than npc advancement. But it’s still an issue of “for 18 years prior to adventuring I learned 4 skills” being equal to “for 120 years prior to adventuring I learned 4 skills”.

Elves place almost no pressure at all on their young adults to be productive members of society. They spend decades studying art, music, sandwiches, whatever. This is a time for them to "find themselves". And, like has been mentioned, skills atrophy. So even if they spent 20 years as a master chef, they might not be able to do that as well anymore. And it's worth noting that Elf society is Chaotic Good as a whole. An entirely Chaotic society is difficult to imagine, but they don't feel the pressure to succeed, to contribute, or struggle with the logistics of survival like we do IRL.

They don't really buckle down and start focusing on anything related to adventuring until like 100 or so, maybe even later. So that same time frame as the human is accounting for background, 5-10 years, is about what an adult is looking at. And due to skill atrophy, they don't necessarily retain any proficiency with the things they did for the first 80-90 years of adulthood (or they weren't things that pertained to fantasy adventuring). Maybe spending 15 years smoking herbs with the local druid Grove dulled their skills or something. Except archery and swordplay, which are apparently mandatory to keep up on.

An elf raised among humans would probably have a lower starting age.

Skills don’t atrophy like muscle do though, for starters.

And real life humans very much learn a ton, even when finding themselves and not really buckling down during the teens and young adulthood.

Even one just living life for experiences is going to pick up a ton of knowledge over 100 years or so.

And CG has nothing to do with it.