Psychofeedback + immunity to ability drain= win?

[Hario]

I was looking at Psychofeedback a Psychic warrior spell seen here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/po...hofeedback.htm you take ability damage to one stat and gain it in another, if you were immune to ability damage would you still get the benifits, one easy way to be immune to ability damage is to use OakBody, seen here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/oakBody.htm There are other ways like taking necropolotain. I know it seems against the meaning of the spell but it doesn't state that being immune to ability damage doesn't negate it.

[RTGoodman]

The only problem I see is the exact wording of the Psychfeedback power.

Select one ability score you would like to boost, and increase it by the same amount that you decrease one or more other scores.

I would say that immunity means that you're effectively not decreasing the others, so the score you choose would increase by the same amount - 0.

[Destro_Yersul]

You just gave me a very silly idea. Stupid, but funny.

Step 1: Cast Psychofeedback
Step 2: Reduce both Dex and Con to 1, boost strength by some ridiculous number. (assuming you have the manifester level to do so)
Step 3: You are now a glass cannon. Go to town.

[RTGoodman]

You just gave me a very silly idea. Stupid, but funny.

Step 1: Cast Psychofeedback
Step 2: Reduce both Dex and Con to 1, boost strength by some ridiculous number. (assuming you have the manifester level to do so)
Step 3: You are now a glass cannon. Go to town.

Of course, it doesn't say that the scores you decrease have to be physical stats. I'd say just drop your Cha and/or Int down as low as possible and put it all in Str. Then Shock Trooper Leaping Power Attack whatever you see to death.

[Destro_Yersul]

That would work too. I think I read that power slightly wrong...

[Fuzzy_Juan]

while ability 'burn' is not exactly defined I don't think, except as a subset of ability damage, it might not be the same in regards to ability damage immunity.

I think that since the 'burn' is a willing sacrifice, it doesn't constitute 'damage', it just operates in a similar way in regards to healing and how it effects you. That's how I would work it if I was DM. sorta like 'Magic' and immunity to certian colors/damage...just because you can't be destroyed...doean't mean you can't be willingly sacrificed.

[Aquillion]

Of course, it doesn't say that the scores you decrease have to be physical stats. I'd say just drop your Cha and/or Int down as low as possible and put it all in Str. Then Shock Trooper Leaping Power Attack whatever you see to death.

Yeah, sure, you rock for a minute or so. And then you have to wait several weeks for your burned stats to recover.

You can do it, and it might even be worth doing in a pinch (as long as your opponent has no way to do ability damage to the stat you reduce -- obviously, you're screwed then.) But it's not exactly an overpowering strategy, or at least not one I'd want to use very often.

[brian c]

Of course, it doesn't say that the scores you decrease have to be physical stats. I'd say just drop your Cha and/or Int down as low as possible and put it all in Str. Then Shock Trooper Leaping Power Attack whatever you see to death.

Hm... if there were some way to do this as a War Hulk, it might just define the limit of min/maxing. I don't think War Hulks can possibly use psionics though

[Hario]

Makes me Wonder if WoTC realised that if a Telepath/Druid Used this, how ridiculous they'd be, well for a day at least, as far as I can tell the Damage doesn't effect you if you Wildshape, and we all know Druids are pretty much always wildshaped all the Time, so what you do is you drop all your scores except wisdom and Con boost wisdom insanely high. Taking the elite array.
Strength:12
Dex: 11
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wisdom: 15
Charisma:10

You want to go to town so you drop you strength down to 1 and raise your wisdom: it goes up +11 to 26, then Dex for +10 which goes up to 36, then charisma which makes it go up to 45 then intelligence which brings it up to 57, Not a Bad Wisdom Score.
Though to fully pull off the one trick pony you need to be at least level 14 but it'd still be fun for say a one shot or an arena. Like if You allowed buffs before a match you could skyrocket your dex to make sure you go first.

[Aquillion]

Makes me Wonder if WoTC realised that if a Telepath/Druid Used this, how ridiculous they'd be, well for a day at least

The spell's duration is 1 round / level (that's just the duration of the bonuses, the penalties stay until they heal naturally). So it's more like one or two minutes than an entire day.

[Hario]

The spell's duration is 1 round / level (that's just the duration of the bonuses, the penalties stay until they heal naturally). So it's more like one or two minutes than an entire day.

Yes you get the bonuses but also keep in mind that wildshape heals you as if you had slept a full night, which would be 8 hours, so it'd heal 8 ability damage every time you wildshape. So its really not much of a penalty really, especially for wildshape which wouldn't get a penalty even if it dropped most of its stats into wisdom.

[Ryuuk]

I thought you only healed one point of ability damage per day, not per hour. You might want to add Mind over Body (found in the psionic section of the SRD) if you want to get the most of the wildshape healing.

[Theli]

As an aside, you don't heal 1 ability damage per hour. It's 1 per night of rest. 2 if you spent the whole day in bed resting.

Additionally, the Rules Compendium modified Wild Shape, stripping away the "as if they had slept one night" clause. It now only regains 1 hit point per Hit Die when used. There is no more, by RAW, ability damage regain on Wild Shape.


Edit:
Ninja! Ninja! Post!

[Mewtarthio]

Yes you get the bonuses but also keep in mind that wildshape heals you as if you had slept a full night, which would be 8 hours, so it'd heal 8 ability damage every time you wildshape. So its really not much of a penalty really, especially for wildshape which wouldn't get a penalty even if it dropped most of its stats into wisdom.

But the power states that only physical stats can be modified (or, at least, enhanced; it's vague as to whether or not you can burn mental stats). So, you take some ability burn to boost a physical stat, then change into a form that ignores physical stats.

[seedjar]

I'm pretty sure, for one, that ability penalties stick when you wild shape. Your base score changes; it's not some magical bonus that always adds up to make your stat a certain minimum. Also, I'm fairly certain that even the original 3.5 wild shape healed hitpoints as though you had rested for an 8-hour night, not damage in general. Also, the power states that ability burn is a distinct type of ability damage. I seem to recall several instances where lowering an ability score was not covered by immunity to ability damage; it may have been ability burn or some other alternate name. I think RTG and Juan have the right ideas. I guess it would be nice if you could pull this off, though... not how I like to play the game myself, though.
~Joe

[Hario]

As an aside, you don't heal 1 ability damage per hour. It's 1 per night of rest. 2 if you spent the whole day in bed resting.

Additionally, the Rules Compendium modified Wild Shape, stripping away the "as if they had slept one night" clause. It now only regains 1 hit point per Hit Die when used. There is no more, by RAW, ability damage regain on Wild Shape.


Edit:
Ninja! Ninja! Post!

Additionally I don't have the rules compendium, since its a frivolous way for WoTC to make money by not just putting up an errata or all of it on their website. So most people don't know of that change, and more likely won't since I do check their errata's but that isn't common knowledge.

Also Seed Jar, the Penalty would only be completely in effect if your wildshape wasn't on, or you put it in a mental stat or in Constitution. I see no reason why you can't bum strength and dex to 1 and have wildshape apply penalties. If you already had a 1 in strength and dex and you wildshape your negative modifiers don't apply and you use the new wildeshape strength and dexterity.

[Theli]

Yeah, it's annoying how WOTC doesn't just release errata.

However, this is officially RAW. And anybody that has ever made an argument for why something should be the case, just because it is RAW (say, any powergamer that might be trying to abuse the psychofeedback power for instance), is going to have to follow it.

Or they could, oh I don't know...maybe actually play reasonable characters that don't try to exploit unfortunate wordings of abilities, spells, and powers?

It would save a lot of trouble if you did, honest.

[seedjar]

Also Seed Jar, the Penalty would only be completely in effect if your wildshape wasn't on, or you put it in a mental stat or in Constitution. I see no reason why you can't bum strength and dex to 1 and have wildshape apply penalties. If you already had a 1 in strength and dex and you wildshape your negative modifiers don't apply and you use the new wildeshape strength and dexterity.

I was referring to the use of Psychofeedback before Wild Shape. Temporary ability damage is broadly considered a penalty, IIRC. It's not that your base score is different - it's that, until you have a chance to heal the damage, your checks of a particular ability are all lower. You don't need a Manual of Gainful Exercise to restore the change that Psychofeedback imposes. Your score isn't actually 1 on your character sheet. It's the old value, with another number in damage subtracted from it temporarily.
If Psychofeedback permanently lowered a score, then Wild Shape would override that damaged ability score. But Psychofeedback effectively applies modifiers to your abilities, so the same way that the bonus you gained would add on to your new scores, the penalty would as well.
~Joe

[The_Snark]

Additionally I don't have the rules compendium, since its a frivolous way for WoTC to make money by not just putting up an errata or all of it on their website. So most people don't know of that change, and more likely won't since I do check their errata's but that isn't common knowledge.

The change to wild shape is in the free errata on the website, not just the Rules Compendium, and the SRD uses the errata'd version.

Psychofeedback can decrease mental ability scores—it says that you "boost one physical ability score at the expense of one or more other scores." That's the whole point of it, really; you can burn off a couple of your mental ability stats in order to give an impressive physical boost, but once you've done it you won't be able to for a few more days. If you had to burn Dex and/or Con to boost Str, it wouldn't be a very good power.

[Aquillion]

Yes you get the bonuses but also keep in mind that wildshape heals you as if you had slept a full night, which would be 8 hours, so it'd heal 8 ability damage every time you wildshape. So its really not much of a penalty really, especially for wildshape which wouldn't get a penalty even if it dropped most of its stats into wisdom.

No dice. Wild Shape only heals hit points:

At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.

I don't think there's any way to speed up the healing of ability burn damage.

[Ryuuk]

There's one way, you could spend a feat on Mind Over Body

[Tokiko Mima]

The only thing I can think of is using the Strongheart Vest from MoI. The question would be whether ability damage/drain reduction works for ability burn. It might be that ability burn cannot be protected against at all.