OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread

[Tzardok]

You mean to tell me that I can't ignite my grill using fireflies?

[The MunchKING]

No, but you can get Devotion.

[KorvinStarmast]

Komodo dragons are dragons in much the same way dragonfruits are dragons.

That's what they want you to think.

You mean to tell me that I can't ignite my grill using fireflies?

A Firefly's exhaust was pretty hot: I think you could light a grill with it, but, if you are not careful, you may also melt it into a pile of slag.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Personally I expect a sword to be more effective than animal claws. Then again, maybe it's one of those things work different on DnD.

Not really. Cats, lizards, and hawks fight better with their claws than with swords they attempt to wield in those claws. Most swords are designed for people with opposable thumbs, you see.

From a game-mechanical perspective, the books are contradictory about how dextrous dragon claws are, but they definitely aren't proficient with greatswords. That's a -4 or so to attack rolls, depending on the edition.

From a biomechanical perspective, swords are designed for hands. They're designed to be held tightly by hands with palms flush against the hilt, letting the wielder sense exactly what direction the edge is facing, which is critical because attacks slightly off-angle are way worse at cutting stuff. And there are probably other details that someone who actually uses swords (instead of just reading about them) could tell you. And even if dragons had human-level dexterity with their claws, all of these details would make it impossible to effectively use a sword that small.

It's not like using a pocketknife instead of fingernails. Pocketknives are small, but they're designed for human-sized hands. It's like using one of those novelty sword-shaped toothpicks instead of your fingernails, except that your fingernails are also deadly weapons, which you don't get a -4 to attack rolls with.

Komodo dragons are dragons in much the same way dragonfruits are dragons.

That's a completely baseless analogy; the "dragon" in "dragonfruit" is being used as an adjective.
Komodo dragons are dragons in much the same way fool's gold is gold. (Or you could point to leafy sea dragons or bearded dragons or something.)

[OvisCaedo]

Dragon claws are either... 1d8 or 2d6, depending on how big Calder actually is. The lowest that seems likely for age category is probably Mature Adult, though I feel like the scraggly beard and bushy eyebrows mark him as at LEAST Old. Which would be the breaking point for pushing him from Huge to Gargantuan, but many people have already been pointing out that Bloodfeast's own size makes Calder being Huge more likely, unless Bloodfeast has also sized up from HD or something.

Anyhow, even if his claws were 1d8 compared to a greatsword's 2d6, and ignoring all the other things that likely benefit Calder using the claws in terms of proficiency or feats... the increase in damage from 1d8 to 2d6 is negligible. At least while the sword is antimagicked.

i don't really expect Rich to always care about enforcing exact damage or HP values or caring about that sort of thing to the extreme, but the world is still DnD enough that it would be silly to act like a nonmagical sword is in any way significantly more dangerous than a dragon's claws.

[Peelee]

That's a completely baseless analogy; the "dragon" in "dragonfruit" is being used as an adjective.
Komodo dragons are dragons in much the same way fool's gold is gold. (Or you could point to leafy sea dragons or bearded dragons or something.)

It's quite baseful, in that my point was "both have 'dragon' in the name". Whether its used an an adjective (it's not, if you want to get prescriptive about it) is immaterial.

[brian 333]

Komodo dragons are dragons in much the same way dragonfruits are dragons.

Okay, now the dragonflies are upset. I suppose you are going to tell them they are neither dragons nor flies!

Oh, there go the snapdragons doing that dance from West Side Story. You're in trouble now!

[Tubercular Ox]

The lowest that seems likely for age category is probably Mature Adult, though I feel like the scraggly beard and bushy eyebrows mark him as at LEAST Old. Which would be the breaking point for pushing him from Huge to Gargantuan, but many people have already been pointing out that Bloodfeast's own size makes Calder being Huge more likely, unless Bloodfeast has also sized up from HD or something.

It feels weird that his facial features are evidence that he's Old but being eight times the size of a Medium creature isn't evidence that he's Gargantuan.

I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm still exploring my feelings on this.

[Peelee]

Okay, now the dragonflies are upset. I suppose you are going to tell them they are neither dragons nor flies!

Oh, there go the snapdragons doing that dance from West Side Story. You're in trouble now!

Of course dragons fly, but if you're going to ask me where the dragon flies, I'm going to need more information.

[Frogwarrior]

Dragon claws are either... 1d8 or 2d6, depending on how big Calder actually is. The lowest that seems likely for age category is probably Mature Adult, though I feel like the scraggly beard and bushy eyebrows mark him as at LEAST Old.

It could be he was Mature Adult when he was interred in the dungeon. He then has "aged" several centuries, with his beard continuing to grow Rip Van Winkle style... but with his body staying the same size, since he isn't actually eating anything to add body mass.

[Peelee]

It could be he was Mature Adult when he was interred in the dungeon. He then has "aged" several centuries, with his beard continuing to grow Rip Van Winkle style... but with his body staying the same size, since he isn't actually eating anything to add body mass.

Centuries?

[OvisCaedo]

It feels weird that his facial features are evidence that he's Old but being eight times the size of a Medium creature isn't evidence that he's Gargantuan.

I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm still exploring my feelings on this.

Old would mean Gargantuan, so they'd fit. I just haven't really paid attention to the specifics of scale and know people were debating it earlier.

[DeeJaye6]

As awesome as this fight is, it's gonna royally suck when Xykon shows up just as they use the last of their spells and one-use items to finish off Calder.

[Mordar]

As awesome as this fight is, it's gonna royally suck when Xykon shows up just as they use the last of their spells and one-use items to finish off Calder.

Few people understood that Comic #1300 was going to be the end of the story. Surprise, suckers!

- M

[gbaji]

As awesome as this fight is, it's gonna royally suck when Xykon shows up just as they use the last of their spells and one-use items to finish off Calder.

That would have to be some seriously epic fight. Lasting 2+ days and all...

[Syncrogti]

Off (on?) topic, I think Calder is just really hangry after not eating for so long. He's probably really nice once you get to know him. Can someone just feed him something so he can calm down? Does Elan have a Create Food and Water spell handy?

[Faldrath]

As awesome as this fight is, it's gonna royally suck when Xykon shows up just as they use the last of their spells and one-use items to finish off Calder.

Actually I think they're being quite conservative when it comes to spells. V has only spent a Cone of Cold and a Chain Lightning (or just Lightning Bolt?), Durkon only cast Mass Resist Fire and now he's throwing his hammer. They are keeping their eyes on the bigger picture. Things might change if Calder actually gets closer to killing someone, I guess.

[Wintermoot]

Off (on?) topic, I think Calder is just really hangry after not eating for so long. He's probably really nice once you get to know him. Can someone just feed him something so he can calm down? Does Elan have a Create Food and Water spell handy?

"only my Hostess Fruit Pies (tm) can calm the savage beast!"

[Thursus]

Wow wow wow, that last big panel has instantly become one of my all-time favorites. It's gorgeous and so, so epic. I also love Belkar's mischievous face from panel 7.

Same! That last panel made me laugh out loud!

[Liquor Box]

From a biomechanical perspective, swords are designed for hands. They're designed to be held tightly by hands with palms flush against the hilt, letting the wielder sense exactly what direction the edge is facing, which is critical because attacks slightly off-angle are way worse at cutting stuff. And there are probably other details that someone who actually uses swords (instead of just reading about them) could tell you. And even if dragons had human-level dexterity with their claws, all of these details would make it impossible to effectively use a sword that small.

I'm pretty sure I recall reading about how the victors chopped the small finger off the right hand of their prisoners after a battle. They thought that losing even the least important finger would hinder their combat ability to use a spear in a shield wall.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Dragons don't have martial weapon proficiency and in an Anti Magic Field, it's little more than a masterwork weapon, especially in the hands of someone without the Weapon of Legscy features. He'd be better off just clawing Bloodfeast.

Correction: Dragons don't default to having weapon proficiencies. Calder could have taken short-sword proficiency as a feat (adjusting for size, that's what it is), which would enable Calder to us it in grapple, trading one of his D6 claws for a 2D6 huge shortsword.

[HalfTangible]

As awesome as this fight is, it's gonna royally suck when Xykon shows up just as they use the last of their spells and one-use items to finish off Calder.

If Team Evil does make it here they're probably going to have to go through the monsters Serini helped them skip. But it does also mean that the villains will, sooner or later, run across this empty room, Calder's corpse, a drained Order, or some combination of the three. All of which will probably lead Redcloak (and possibly the others) to conclude there's an ambush party of heroes waiting for them.

It's even possible Calder will inform Team Evil of this personally (Redcloak does probably have Speak With Dead)

We're at the climax, after all; the time to turn up the pressure on our heroes

[gbaji]

If Team Evil does make it here they're probably going to have to go through the monsters Serini helped them skip. But it does also mean that the villains will, sooner or later, run across this empty room, Calder's corpse, a drained Order, or some combination of the three. All of which will probably lead Redcloak (and possibly the others) to conclude there's an ambush party of heroes waiting for them.

It's even possible Calder will inform Team Evil of this personally (Redcloak does probably have Speak With Dead)

We're at the climax, after all; the time to turn up the pressure on our heroes

Or... V uses the same spell used in the past to prevent this: Disintegrate, followed by gust of wind. Or... you know, maybe have Sunny use eye #8 on the corpse (and another gust of wind to push the ashes into the green colored water below).

Assuming the Order does win the fight and Calder is killed, it's extremely unlikely that they will leave a body around for TE to find and use in any meanginful way. The Order has a couple days of time to prep for TE to arrive (and know this fact). They also know that Xykon likes to make zombified dragons, so it's kinda of an obvious move.

Now... I could see Calder starting to lose and fleeing into the dungeon, running wild and triggering a ton of traps and releasing a bunch of monsters, and perhaps forcing the Order to head of towards the gate room without being able to deal with that mess (which could make TE's arrival "interesting"). Heck. Calder could surrender (again) to them, and then maybe agree to help defend the gate in return for freedom later maybe. Dunno. I could see lots of other possible things that could happen here. But yeah, not seeing any route that results in a Calder corpse lying around for TE to use after the fact (well, unless he runs back towards the entrance, the Order decides not to chase him, and then he dies to something along the way maybe). But that's not much different than if he does that and doesn't die.

[brian 333]

"only my Hostess Fruit Pies (tm) can calm the savage beast!"

The hostess of your party serves Sorcerer Fruit Pies? How do I wrangle an invite?

Correction: Dragons don't default to having weapon proficiencies. Calder could have taken short-sword proficiency as a feat (adjusting for size, that's what it is), which would enable Calder to us it in grapple, trading one of his D6 claws for a 2D6 huge shortsword.

Sure. 2d6 Great sword beats wing, wing, tail, claw, claw.

Am I the first to consider that it is just as likely that he stabbed himself as it is that he stabbed Bloodfeast? He was not holding it as a ready weapon, even if he is proficient.

[Kardwill]

The sword is probably sharper.

Which sounds more painful : A rottweiler biting you, or a rottweiler accidentally nicking you with the kitchen knife it's biting? And yet, the knife is a lot sharper that the dog's teeth.

And did you try to cut a steak with a kitchen knife you're holding by the blade? Because that doesn't sound like a fun/effective idea either.

Now, the dragon could change its grip on the sword, then stab the dino, sure. But I still think that full-power clawing away with the natural weapon you're used to would still be more effective in a close combat brawl than awkwardly holding a action-figure-sized weapon, even a real sharp one. Otherwise, every dragon would carry a human sword (or better, an ogre or giant sized one)


With the confusion and the dragon's desperate attempts to free itself, the Dino might end up with Roy's sword sticking out of its hide. But I doubt it will be as effective as the old "he fell on my sword" trope.

[Kardwill]

That's what they want you to think.
A Firefly's exhaust was pretty hot: I think you could light a grill with it, but, if you are not careful, you may also melt it into a pile of slag.

We should ask Crow. I heard he has a personal experience with exhaust home-cooking.

[Precure]

Which sounds more painful : A rottweiler biting you, or a rottweiler accidentally nicking you with the kitchen knife it's biting? And yet, the knife is a lot sharper that the dog's teeth.

Knife sounds more painful, especially if it's used by not dumb animal but a smart one like Calder the dragon.

[hroþila]

From a biomechanical perspective, swords are designed for hands.

Big if true

[Kardwill]

Knife sounds more painful, especially if it's used by not dumb animal but a smart one like Calder the dragon.

Personally, I chose the awkward knife swinging rather than the full, crushing, ripping pressure of the dog's jaw. Even if the dog actually knew how to swing the knife, his jaw is not built right to wield it effectively (or rather, the knife was not built to be an effective tool for somebody holding it in their teeth). But it IS built right to rip a hunk of flesh from my throat.

And you'll notice that no dragon we saw in the comic wielded a bladed weapon. There is probably a reason a smart creature preparing for a fight (like the ABD) decided not to bother with a weapon.

[danielxcutter]

You guys do remember we’re talking about dragon claws which are about the size of a sword each, right?