OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread

[gbs5009]

They haven't always been epic though, so do we know if they were already maxed-out at the time they fought Calder? It could have been a long time before the whole rifts/gates/dungeons plotline, no?

Also, they fought Calder *with his cult*. A few backup casters would make this a LOT more challenging than just fighting Calder himself.

[Psepha]

This was AWESOME! It had been predicted and mentioned so many times that I didn't suspect we'd actually get it here, so this was super satisfying to finally see happening!

One thing I wondered - I've seen a few comments about how having an allosaurus hanging from your throat would probably impede speech so would block his ability to command Sunny or cast spells, but Calder was using telepathy to command Sunny earlier (either from him being a Mindbender, or just through the telepathic link that I think Dominate Person/Monster always gives you? I think?). Does an AMF also stop him from being able to do that?

[danielxcutter]

The AMF certainly makes him more vulnerable. His DR is supernatural and so is disabled.

Oh absolutely, except dragon DR is DR/magic which was already doing diddly squat against the Order’s attacks; aside from Bloodfeast’s teeth and claws not a single weapon of theirs is incapable of completely ignoring that DR even without the AMF. Meanwhile, Calder’s obscenely high AC stays completely intact. Remember those frost giants last book that the Order demolished without too much issue? Without any magical bonuses I don’t think anyone outside Roy can hit them.

[Kardwill]

Good use of that halfling +1 attack bonus to throw small objects ^^

(And Bloodfeast furrowing his brow in concentration is adorable!)

[Laurentio III]

Shut up Elan. It's cool.

[KorvinStarmast]

The question, of course, is does Belkar get the XP for the kill or does Bloodfeast?

Why can't it be both?

...enjoy the Utterly Dwarfed cover for how appropriate everyone's reactions are to Belkar trying to tell them the vampire isn't Durkon. Roy is actively ignoring him, Vaarsuvius is curious enough to listen, Haley is annoyed by him, and Elan isn't paying attention and is looking at clouds instead.)

Belkar's role in the next series will be played by Cassandra ...

...the low-hanging fruit would be to have Calder make Sunny use an instant-kill ray on his mom.

Death ray? Since Sunny isn't a stock beholder, we can't be sure that he's got that. Beyond that, I am not sure how various editions handle the nuances for domination differently, but would that not cause Sunny to get another save versus domination? I think that Calder knows the limitations of his own powers.

I still think the AMF gives Calder an edge though. Magic gear and buffs are ridiculously important in the edition the comic’s based on, but Calder’s melee capacity doesn’t rely on those at all.

+1. What Calder is up against is the action economy.

Good use of that halfling +1 attack bonus to throw small objects

A bit less comic than his use of rocks in the prison in BRitF.

Shut up Elan. It's cool.

More concise than Belkar, but spot on.

[The MunchKING]

Death ray? Since Sunny isn't a stock beholder, we can't be sure that he's got that.

He's got SOME kind of ray he refuses to use on living beings.

Beyond that, I am not sure how various editions handle the nuances for domination differently, but would that not cause Sunny to get another save versus domination? I think that Calder knows the limitations of his own powers.

Yes, but most Beholders (and presumably Beholder knock-offs?) don't actually care about family or anything. So Calder might not expect Sunny to have any sort of emotional attachment to Serreni, and just be tricked or forced into working with her like he was.

[Grendelkin]

He's got SOME kind of ray he refuses to use on living beings.

If memory serves, #8 is the disintegration ray. Sunny used it to blast a hole in a wall when Serini was fighting the Order so she could escape.

[arimareiji]

Death ray? Since Sunny isn't a stock beholder, we can't be sure that he's got that. Beyond that, I am not sure how various editions handle the nuances for domination differently, but would that not cause Sunny to get another save versus domination? I think that Calder knows the limitations of his own powers.

I can't be sure of the source, but what I looked up showed two: Disintegrate and finger of death.

And indeed that would be a reasonable surmise -- but given the high improbability of the hypothetical* I was responding to, I propose mine would be both more "Evil DM Storyteller"** and more plausible by comparison.

* - Specifically, somehow Calder sticks a sword into Bloodfeast then Bloodfeast falls out of the AMF and turns small again so the sword spits him or bisects him.

** - Which imo is the most implausible of all, from the Giant.

[Peelee]

Oh absolutely, except dragon DR is DR/magic which was already doing diddly squat against the Order’s attacks; aside from Bloodfeast’s teeth and claws not a single weapon of theirs is incapable of completely ignoring that DR even without the AMF.

And laughably low touch AC is more or less invalidated.

[Unoriginal]

In 3.X, a Red Dragon's Breath Weapon is a Supernatural ability.

That means Calder is reduced to only attacking with his claws, his fangs, his tail and perhaps his wings (don't think Red Dragons can do that as a default, but they can learn).

So it's possible that the Order manages to subdue him without needing to kill him first by making him unable to attack. Even draconic strength has its limits, and Mimi alone can probably subdue 1/5th of the attacking limbs.

That may turn this encounter into a new step on the Order's "how do we actually deal with the problem?" journey.

[Souhiro]

I come here just to say....

"¡YEEEEEES! That's what AWESOME is made of!"
Thanks, Mr. Giant :D You were saving the very best for this moment!

[danielxcutter]

In 3.X, a Red Dragon's Breath Weapon is a Supernatural ability.

That means Calder is reduced to only attacking with his claws, his fangs, his tail and perhaps his wings (don't think Red Dragons can do that as a default, but they can learn).

So it's possible that the Order manages to subdue him without needing to kill him first by making him unable to attack. Even draconic strength has its limits, and Mimi alone can probably subdue 1/5th of the attacking limbs.

That may turn this encounter into a new step on the Order's "how do we actually deal with the problem?" journey.

Unfortunately, wing strikes are indeed default natural attacks for dragons old enough (which Calder is) - they have six attacks a round due to this, though engaging in constant melee combat usually isn’t a good idea for them nevertheless because a well prepared party can still outdamage them.

And draconic strength has a limit yes but it’s not one that can be exploited realistically; in 3.5e grapple checks are base attack bonus + Str modifier + size modifier, and dragons have all three in spades. (This is also one of the reasons why grappling in 3.5e for PCs is essentially a joke, along with Freedom of Movement coming online at level 7 or so and items granting it permanently.)

[The_Weirdo]

What Belkar threw was a small harmless glrkt. But what bit Calder was an allosaurus.

[By the way, does anybody know where I can find the stat block for a glrkt?]

You may be falling for the fallacy of "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" there, my friend. Just because an allosaurus bit Calder right after Belkar threw the small harmless glrkt doesn't mean the events are related.

[Dellmarcus]

This strip is a GREAT example of how Rich's writing on this strip is so good. The idea of the T-rex being full-sized again and going on a rampage has been teased for a long time. It was on the periphery of things, but it was in the back of all our minds.

That made the actual event all the more fun. Belkar might be super evil, but he's also super smart, and that was a GREAT setup. Having the dragon make a snide comment is just more great writing...excellent. :)

[Crusher]

The Order of The Stick is not Epic.


The Order Of The Scribble was, and Serini explicitly states they needed the whole team to take him down - meaning that he put up a serious fight against an epic-level party.

They ended up Epic, but we don't know that they were Epic when they faced Calder. For all we know, they might have fought Calder when they were level 9 or something. That's unlikely, but the point stands that we don't know.

Hmm, any idea what spell was used to place Calder in stasis like that? Might help determine what level the Scribblers were when they fought Calder.

[rasborry]

Shut up, Elan, that was rad as heck!

[LuPuWei]

Wow. He really is a Sexy Shoeless God of War...

[fuschiawarrior]

I can't be sure of the source, but what I looked up showed two: Disintegrate and finger of death.

And indeed that would be a reasonable surmise -- but given the high improbability of the hypothetical* I was responding to, I propose mine would be both more "Evil DM Storyteller"** and more plausible by comparison.

* - Specifically, somehow Calder sticks a sword into Bloodfeast then Bloodfeast falls out of the AMF and turns small again so the sword spits him or bisects him.

** - Which imo is the most implausible of all, from the Giant.

When Bloodfeast was first polymorphed he had horns going through him, he wasn't bissected then and he isn't going to be bissected now.

[KorvinStarmast]

He's got SOME kind of ray he refuses to use on living beings.

Yep.

Yes, but most Beholders (and presumably Beholder knock-offs?) don't actually care about family or anything. So Calder might not expect Sunny to have any sort of emotional attachment to Serini, and just be tricked or forced into working with her like he was.

That makes sense to me. Calder's assumptions may be invalid.

That means Calder is reduced to only attacking with his claws, his fangs, his tail and perhaps his wings (don't think Red Dragons can do that as a default, but they can learn).

While each of his hits will hurt, he's up against a crowd.

That may turn this encounter into a new step on the Order's "how do we actually deal with the problem?" journey.

Given how Rich writes, and how the battle with the young black dragon went, I will not bet against you.

[Shining Wrath]

They ended up Epic, but we don't know that they were Epic when they faced Calder. For all we know, they might have fought Calder when they were level 9 or something. That's unlikely, but the point stands that we don't know.

Hmm, any idea what spell was used to place Calder in stasis like that? Might help determine what level the Scribblers were when they fought Calder.

It seems like Imprisonment, which is 9th level. Or some souped-up Hold Monster, which is 6th or 7th.

[Psepha]

It seems like Imprisonment, which is 9th level. Or some souped-up Hold Monster, which is 6th or 7th.

I'd say closer to Temporal Stasis, since it doesn't include stuffing them in a small sphere. But then again, Temporal Stasis doesn't involve a magic circle, so...

[lenon3579]

IT IS COOL NOW!!!

(Yes, that was all I wanted to say. I'll proceed to read the thread now)

[bunsen_h]

Sure, but let's remember why Shelby died.

So long as Belkar doesn't proclaim himself to be "the Dragonslayer!" he's not so likely to die immediately, ironically, and ignominiously. Or perhaps he will assume that title, in the third-last panel, followed by a one-panel pause while everyone waits for something terrible to happen, and the last panel will be a comment about the lack of immediate death.

[urbanwolf]

Those numbers seem to be consistent with the normal carrying capacities for creatures on the ground. I don't see where that connects with what they can carry while flying..?
(Airspeed velocity of an unladen dragon, yada yada.)

You can fly and carry a light load. For sure.
You can maybe fly at reduced speed with a medium or heavy load. It was vague wording.

The only other rule I remember about flying in 3.5 is that you can't wear medium or heavy barding and serve as a mount.
And it's weird cause the barding would be no were near a light load for the mount. full plate is 50Lbs I think so 100lbs for a large and 250 for huge then 500 for huge and 1000 for large.

[Cryos]

I completely forgot about Bloodfeast, that was awesome!

[Kaed]

It never ceases to bemuse me how much of the reaction threads for this comic are people picking apart the hypothetical game mechanics of each enemy and new character, as if they assume Rich is still meticulously following the 3.5 rules despite years of playing loose with them since the comic transitioned to being about the story more than making fun of weird D&D mechanics.

I honestly don't think Rich sat down and thought "Hmmm if this is an ancient red dragon then they should be twice the size of Bloodfeast", I suspect the thought process was more along the lines of "big monster fights look cool when they're about the same size". Similarly, I think the frosty eye beams were more of a 'it looks cool when he casts with his eyes' than him pulling up the obscure epic feat ocular spell.

As far as I'm aware, there's no specific mechanic that was ever written to allow red dragons to remove their vulnerability to cold damage, or allow a dragon to dominate someone from over a hundred feet away that they can't even see, while in some sort of magical permanent sleep paralysis state that also grants telepathy. Those are just things that are there as part of the story, with powerful magic, much like the Cloister spell.

Like, I get it, the comic is based on 3.5e mechanics at it's core, but not everything has to be meticulously statted out and assigned a level and spell list. The dragon just has the magic he needs to be the monster he needs to be, he doesn't have to have levels in some 'Mindbender' class or have to be a specific size to have spells of a high level, despite Seriri saying he's 'a bit of a mindbender'. The black dragon from earlier in the comic had magic well beyond what black dragons normally have, for instance, and that was waved away by her commenting that she's 'better at magic than most of her kin'.

[Doug Lampert]

For start, we just saw him cast Bear's endurance.
For another, we've learned that he always memorizes several sending spells to contact his mom.

I'll leave it to the geek thread to see how many slots he has left

Sending is level 4 for clerics, so irrelevant to his level 2 loadout. The bear's endurance isn't specified as mass, so it was probably one of his circa 7 level 2 spells.

So long as Belkar doesn't proclaim himself to be "the Dragonslayer!" he's not so likely to die immediately, ironically, and ignominiously. Or perhaps he will assume that title, in the third-last panel, followed by a one-panel pause while everyone waits for something terrible to happen, and the last panel will be a comment about the lack of immediate death.

Shelby probably was able to go up more than one level at a time because he not only killed the dragon, he got a NAME at the same time. Obviously, the combination made him too powerful to live.

[Emperor Time]

What a fantastic panel... CHOMP!

I agree that Bloodfeast was the star of this page of the story and hope he can continue to help even more after this as well.

[Crusher]

It seems like Imprisonment, which is 9th level. Or some souped-up Hold Monster, which is 6th or 7th.

Imprisonment seems like a good bet, or something related, since its been decades.

It also occurs to me that Calder has probably been hauled around a bit since being frozen. The Scribblers presumably defeated Calder before splitting up, which means before everyone got to work building their respective gate defenses. So they probably Imprisoned Calder somewhere other than Kragor's Gate and Serini said "Hey, Dorukan (who probably did it), can you show me how to move Calder around? No, no reason." Or maybe got him to move it himself, suggesting he had at least some idea of what Serini was up to?