OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread

[TheNecrocomicon]

If the blood flying from the dino's bite is any indication, that did some serious damage. But there's no way I expect the fight to be over after, what has it been, just four strips or half a dozen pages?

There's no way this goes so easily, and if this is a high point for the Order in the fight, crap is going to hit the proverbial fan just as hard. It's just bound to.

Then again, I would certainly love it if Bloodfeast got to cathartically repay their lengthy stay as a polymorphed lizard with some dragon-decapitating. I just don't think it's going to be nearly that simple when it plays out.

EDIT: I'm also glad that polymorphing and the cancellation thereof seems to ignore conservation-of-momentum, otherwise the impact of a tiny lizard against a massive dragon wouldn't have let Bloodfeast sink their actual dinosaur teeth and claws in that deeply at all.

[Edric O]

BLOODFEAST!!!!

I'm reading this in the middle of the night and literally screamed the above with pure delight at the sheer awesomeness of that penultimate panel.

Fortunately, no one woke up.

[danielxcutter]

It never ceases to bemuse me how much of the reaction threads for this comic are people picking apart the hypothetical game mechanics of each enemy and new character, as if they assume Rich is still meticulously following the 3.5 rules despite years of playing loose with them since the comic transitioned to being about the story more than making fun of weird D&D mechanics.

I honestly don't think Rich sat down and thought "Hmmm if this is an ancient red dragon then they should be twice the size of Bloodfeast", I suspect the thought process was more along the lines of "big monster fights look cool when they're about the same size". Similarly, I think the frosty eye beams were more of a 'it looks cool when he casts with his eyes' than him pulling up the obscure epic feat ocular spell.

As far as I'm aware, there's no specific mechanic that was ever written to allow red dragons to remove their vulnerability to cold damage, or allow a dragon to dominate someone from over a hundred feet away that they can't even see, while in some sort of magical permanent sleep paralysis state that also grants telepathy. Those are just things that are there as part of the story, with powerful magic, much like the Cloister spell.

Like, I get it, the comic is based on 3.5e mechanics at it's core, but not everything has to be meticulously statted out and assigned a level and spell list. The dragon just has the magic he needs to be the monster he needs to be, he doesn't have to have levels in some 'Mindbender' class or have to be a specific size to have spells of a high level, despite Seriri saying he's 'a bit of a mindbender'. The black dragon from earlier in the comic had magic well beyond what black dragons normally have, for instance, and that was waved away by her commenting that she's 'better at magic than most of her kin'.

I think there’s a dragon merit that removes the energy weakness of their subtype in… Draconomicon I think?

[Silencer]

I love the expression on BFtX's face going up!

[Zhorn]

Oh that is glorious!
BLOODFEAST!

[HUMVEE Driver]

Calder is holding Roy's sword awfully close to Bloodfeast's chest...

Just sayin'.

[Gez]

I think there’s a dragon merit that removes the energy weakness of their subtype in… Draconomicon I think?

Yep. Technically it's two feats. The first requires Iron Will and merely reduce the vulnerability to halves the extra damage you take (so instead of receiving 150% of the damage rolled, you receive 125% of it); the second requires the first and completely removes the vulnerability (so you receive only the regular 100% of damage rolled).

[Mic_128]

Calder is holding Roy's sword awfully close to Bloodfeast's chest...

Just sayin'.

Calder's holding it by the blade. Unless he's planning on stabbing Bloodfeast with the handle, I think he's fine.

[gatorized]

Maybe the dragon slowly built up an immunity to cold damage by casting polar ray at a mirror and reflecting it back at himself every day for years

[elecampane]

I didn't see anyone in this thread point out, that Calder specifically requested the Antimagic cone to be aimed on his torso. His back and tail can be out of the cone, and attacked normally with magic weapons. Also, Haley's not in the cone, along with her bow. Most of her arrows aren't magical, it's the bow that gives magical bonuses based on improved aim an string pull. On the other hand, Calder can probably stretch his neck very hard and use his breath, depending on the angle of the cone

It never ceases to bemuse me how much of the reaction threads for this comic are people picking apart the hypothetical game mechanics of each enemy and new character, as if they assume Rich is still meticulously following the 3.5 rules despite years of playing loose with them since the comic transitioned to being about the story more than making fun of weird D&D mechanics.

I mean, Rich mostly follows the rules, and only deviates from them when it's cool/convenient. Sunny's a good example: they have 1 less eyestalk, and a different personality, but otherwise behave and fight exactly as a Beholder would. As a person who's always looking at the comic through a D&D3.5 rules (simply because I played it for a lot of years), one can usually deduce a lot about the Rich's monsters looking at their statblocks.

As far as I'm aware, there's no specific mechanic that was ever written to allow red dragons to remove their vulnerability to cold damage, or allow a dragon to dominate someone from over a hundred feet away that they can't even see, while in some sort of magical permanent sleep paralysis state that also grants telepathy. Those are just things that are there as part of the story, with powerful magic, much like the Cloister spell.

I mean, "Suppress Weakness" and "Overcome weakness" are literally feats described in draconomicon that allow to do excatly that (remove energy vulnerability). And 2 levels in Mindbender class specifically allow someone to communicate telepathically with creatures in a range of 100ft, and give the ability to give suggestion using that telepathy

Like, I get it, the comic is based on 3.5e mechanics at it's core, but not everything has to be meticulously statted out and assigned a level and spell list. The dragon just has the magic he needs to be the monster he needs to be, he doesn't have to have levels in some 'Mindbender' class or have to be a specific size to have spells of a high level, despite Seriri saying he's 'a bit of a mindbender'. The black dragon from earlier in the comic had magic well beyond what black dragons normally have, for instance, and that was waved away by her commenting that she's 'better at magic than most of her kin'.

I mean, Rich's very aware of the rules, and references them often (the in-comic book about ancestral weapons literally references rulebook about ancestral weapons "Weapon of legacy"), it's unlikely that he uses the specific word for a popular prestige class on accident, not as a reference.

That's for the Fly spell. I'm not convinced that the rules carry over directly. For example, it doesn't make a great deal of sense for the "quadruped bonus" for carrying heavy loads to carry over to the load capacity for a flier.

Its clearly determined in the definition of what a fly speed is:

A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.) All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows:<...>

Specifically, somehow Calder sticks a sword into Bloodfeast then Bloodfeast falls out of the AMF and turns small again so the sword spits him or bisects him.

Baleful Polymorph, which is a spell Bloodfeast's under, doesn't change hit points, so the sword isn't more likely to bisect him when he's small; he's an unnaturally hardy small lizard

Finally if we want to be really geeky here; The default Allosaurus would have to roll a 20 (With bite, let alone secondary attacks) to hit the base Mature Adult Red Dragon. Our level 21 Dino would only need like 16 to hit an Ancient Red Dragon. Dino damage also scales faster than dragon HP due to crossing a size threshold. So Weirdly enough the advanced Allosaurus does better vs an older dragon that the base one against a younger.

by my calculations, improving an allosaurus to 21HD and Gargantuan size gives him BAB of 15, -4 size penalty, Str of 32 which results in Bite +22 which allows to hit a very old red dragon on 1d20>=14. Rake attack also uses the main attack bonus.
And I concur, Bloodfeast being advanced animal with gargantuan size makes a lot of sense to me.

What's the maximum flying weight of a red dragon? The T-Rex is adding somewhere between 11,000 and 16,000 pounds. My guess for first panel of next chapter: both of them are coming crashing down. 🐲🦖

for a very old dragon with a Str of 37 light load (which he is limited to per fly speed rules) is 16608 if you're going off a quadruped capacity or 11702 if you're using biped stats. But I think that's beside the point, Belkar specifically used Bloodfeast to bring the dragon down, so that's what will likely happen.

[deworde]

To be fair to Elan, this has only been a few hours for him.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1239.html

[Tubercular Ox]

A younger dragon with extra caster levels could be an appropriate CR for the Order.

A younger dragon with extra caster levels would wreck the CR system, but I get what you're saying.

I can not speak for other players, but for me it is a fun metal exercise. It is also a way to keep the rules in mind as I plan a new campaign. Probably not in 3.5 but a lot of the rules are sort of timeless anyways. I knew the giant would never let the rules get in the way of the story, and as a forever D/GM the rules barley matter for the game. Well at least until they do.

I don't think you meant for what you said to come off as a put down; it is most likely chalked up to my troubles with the English language, but what you said hurt my feelings. Like we are wasting our time with our fun little game. Like when people tease me for still playing Pokémon or even playing dungeons and dragons. It reminds me of the Simpsons where Marge calls Liza chucky with out thinking or meaning anything malice by it, but it gets into the head and eats away.

Fun would be a very good reason for why Rich continues to have rules references even after his audience thinks his story has matured and he should stop. Another, compatible reason would be if it's an integral part of his creative process. For example, if he were trying to decide if Miko could solo the entire party, he could mock up a scene with this level of detail, and inform his decision to have a jump cut to the party's defeat from that mock-up.

The way these work together is that it is easy to keep the comic believable (from a D&D standpoint, and to an extent consistent with what we see) if keeping it believable is also fun. And if the mock-ups normally happened before the scene is designed, then making his decisions without a mock-up would actually be the more dangerous route, since he would have no practice writing stories that way and would be risking the quality of the output on an experiment that probably isn't even fun to do.

The art upgrades are explicit about this. Rich tells us that he implements them because they're necessary in order for him to maintain interest in his work. AKA, they're fun.

As far as I'm aware, there's no specific mechanic that was ever written to allow red dragons to remove their vulnerability to cold damage, or allow a dragon to dominate someone from over a hundred feet away that they can't even see, while in some sort of magical permanent sleep paralysis state that also grants telepathy. Those are just things that are there as part of the story, with powerful magic, much like the Cloister spell.

Almost everything in this paragraph has a reasonable rules explanation, most of which have been pointed out. Suppress Weakness and Overcome Weakness are feats that could let Calder unburden himself of his vulnerability. Suggestion is an SLA, requiring no components (neither verbal, somatic, nor material) to cast, and a Mindbender's telepathy likewise just happens.

Being awake while frozen is weird, but the Temporal Stasis spell does have the footnote that it claims, "Body functions virtually cease."

It upsets certain people because the points are often unprovable, but if we imagine Rich reading the rules for inspiration instead of for simulation, then sentences like that become food for thought.

Bottom line: All of the evidence is that the rules are a part of Rich's process somewhere, and if he puts extra effort in, it's to make sure the story is still fun for people who don't follow the rules. And the evidence is that Rich would be down for extra effort, because he adds to the complexity of the comic regularly.

Maybe the dragon slowly built up an immunity to cold damage by casting polar ray at a mirror and reflecting it back at himself every day for years

Inconceivable!

[Zarhan]

Ok, since no one has apparently asked this before, what does "Alley Oop" (comic title) refer to?

Never heard of the term, and a Google search led to Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alley-oop - but that doesn't seem to fit expect very remotely (Belkar tossing Bloodfeast...).

[Somniloquist]

It's also an old comic strip about dinosaurs an cavemen, and also possibly a pun on Allosaurus. I think it's a reference to all three of those.

[elecampane]

Ok, since no one has apparently asked this before, what does "Alley Oop" (comic title) refer to?

Never heard of the term, and a Google search led to Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alley-oop - but that doesn't seem to fit expect very remotely (Belkar tossing Bloodfeast...).

That seems to fit better:

Alley Oop is a syndicated comic strip created December 5, 1932, by American cartoonist V. T. Hamlin, who wrote and drew the strip through four decades for Newspaper Enterprise Association. Hamlin introduced a cast of colorful characters and his storylines entertained with a combination of adventure, fantasy, and humor. Alley Oop, the strip's title character, is a sturdy citizen in the prehistoric kingdom of Moo. He rides his pet dinosaur Dinny, carries a stone axe, and wears only a fur loincloth.

And also this

alley oop
Etymology: Borrowed from French allez-hop!, the cry of a circus acrobat about to leap. From allez (“go! let's go!”), 2nd-person plural or formal indicative form of aller, and hop, onomatopoeic.

Encouraging or calling attention to a physical performance, especially one involving an upwards lift or leap.

[Zarhan]

Right, didn't research that deep - thought it was mostly about basketball. Thanks guys.

[Peelee]

I think there’s a dragon merit that removes the energy weakness of their subtype in… Draconomicon I think?

Yep. Technically it's two feats. The first requires Iron Will and merely reduce the vulnerability to halves the extra damage you take (so instead of receiving 150% of the damage rolled, you receive 125% of it); the second requires the first and completely removes the vulnerability (so you receive only the regular 100% of damage rolled).

Yep! Suppress Weakness and Overcome Weakness.

I mean, Rich mostly follows the rules, and only deviates from them when it's cool/convenient.

Or when he forgets or misremembers the exact mechanisms. But overall, I largely agree. If I see a creature in OotS, then I have no reason to think it won't be reasonably identical to the MM entry.

[gatorized]

I just noticed the rules don't actually say whether dragons are considered quadrupeds. https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

Quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than bipeds can. Any creature with four or more motive limbs can carry a load as a quadruped, even if it does not necessarily use all the limbs at once.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm

Can a flying creature use its quadrupedal carrying bonus? This seems to assume the creature is on the ground. Even if your arms are strong enough to lift infinite weight, wouldn't the strength of your wings be the sole determining factor in whether you can stay in the air with a particular amount of carried weight?

I don't care about the particular example in the comic, I'm just curious about how the rules are meant to work generally.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I don't understand why people talk about the rules text as if it's some sort of lost knowledge that only the ancients understood. You can just look it up.

One thing I've learned by spending (don't think about it) years on the Internet is that most people would rather repeat whatever they remember than look it up to see if it's true. Or get more details. Or anything.

Luckily, I'm not most people.

He could be a mature adult, which have AC 32. I don’t think anyone besides Roy can hit that after their first attack without a nat 20, without magical bonuses.

According to the Class & Level Geekery Thread:

• Roy has a BAB of at least +14 and a Strength bonus of +9 (with magic items), so his attack bonus without magic is probably somewhere around +20. Two iterative attacks can hit without a natural 20.
• Belkar has a BAB of +15 and a Strength bonus of +2 or +3, so his attack bonus without magic is +16 or +17. If he squeezed Weapon Focus or something in there, his second unmagicked attack could hit on a 19.
• Durkon has a BAB of +9 and a Strength bonus between +3 and +5. Without magic, his first attack needs at least a 19 to hit.
• Elan has a BAB of at least +10 and no Strength bonus. He probably needs a natural 20 even with magic.
• Haley has a BAB of +12 and a Dexterity bonus of +5 ("even in anti-magic"). That's comparable to Belkar.
• Minrah probably has a BAB somewhere north of +7 and a Strength bonus of +2 to +4. On par with Elan.
• Vaarsuvius is a wizard.

So not quite true, but close to true.

I'm not sure that Calder looks old, and Serini has already called him a mind bender (which is a prestige class that adds spell levels), so I think that is more likely.

In addition, if he were old or ancient would put him out of the Order's league. A younger dragon with extra caster levels could be an appropriate CR for the Order.

The other point is that Calder's breath weapons don't seem to have done as much damage as one might expect if her were older.

Point 1: Since when has the Order fought monsters in their league?

Point 2: Most people are assuming Calder is Old because, um, he looks old. He's got a vaguely gaunt face and a broken horn and a...beard? And bushy...eye...ridges... Anyways, Rich presumably designed him that way for a reason, presumably to communicate that this is an old dragon, and hence a dangerous one.

I just noticed the rules don't actually say whether dragons are considered quadrupeds. https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

Quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than bipeds can. Any creature with four or more motive limbs can carry a load as a quadruped, even if it does not necessarily use all the limbs at once.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm

Can a flying creature use its quadrupedal carrying bonus? This seems to assume the creature is on the ground. Even if your arms are strong enough to lift infinite weight, wouldn't the strength of your wings be the sole determining factor in whether you can stay in the air with a particular amount of carried weight?

I don't care about the particular example in the comic, I'm just curious about how the rules are meant to work generally.

RAW, a turkey has four motive limbs (gliding is a form of movement), so it would get quadruped carrying capacity. And a snake doesn't have any limbs, motive or otherwise, so it doesn't.

The carrying capacity rules aren't all that detailed. AFAIK, there isn't a specific clause for flying creatures.
The general rule about "they can only fly with a light load" covers things pretty well, though.

[bunsen_h]

RAW, a turkey has four motive limbs (gliding is a form of movement), so it would get quadruped carrying capacity. And a snake doesn't have any limbs, motive or otherwise, so it doesn't.

The carrying capacity rules aren't all that detailed. AFAIK, there isn't a specific clause for flying creatures.
The general rule about "they can only fly with a light load" covers things pretty well, though.

So a human gets the quadruped carrying bonus while using crutches, or while swimming?

[Peelee]

So a human gets the quadruped carrying bonus while using crutches, or while swimming?

Humans get quadruped bonus while swimming, and heal by drowning. No wonder there are so few water-based campaigns, humans are ridiculously OP in it!

[Wintermoot]

So a human gets the quadruped carrying bonus while using crutches, or while swimming?

Or when they are babies! The whole four legs in the morning, two during the day, three at night thing.

Turns out babies are the best pack-beasts of all!

[elecampane]

Humans get quadruped bonus while swimming, and heal by drowning. No wonder there are so few water-based campaigns, humans are ridiculously OP in it!

So that's why it's easier to lift things up in the water! I'm getting the quadruped bonus!

[Kardwill]

Point 2: Most people are assuming Calder is Old because, um, he looks old. He's got a vaguely gaunt face and a broken horn and a...beard? And bushy...eye...ridges... Anyways, Rich presumably designed him that way for a reason, presumably to communicate that this is an old dragon, and hence a dangerous one.

The beard is tha classical Red Dragon look, though. "Looking old" is their natural look.
What makes him look older (and more maleficient) than normal to me are the bulging, squinting eyes.

It would be nice to check AMFES (summer 1, I guess?) to see how Rich draws "standard" red dragons of the different age categories. I'll look for my copy this weekend.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Anyone else think Roy was going to throw Minrah at Sunny?

Also, I'm wondering how Serini got Calder in there. I'm guessing a dungeon builder's trade secret.

Red dragons have an AC of 21 in their late teens and early 20's. Calder probably isn't a juvenile.

"They" the frost giants have an AC of 21.

BRB gonna go name my cat "Dog" so he can start barking.

The problem with that analogy is that the allosaurus does "bark". Let's run through the characteristics of lizards:

• Four limbs
• Egg laying
• Endoskeletion
• Cold blooded (maybe the real one might not have been, but the pop cultures ones are)
• Long tails
• Overlapping, keratinous scales

I'm not a coffee drinker, but from what I hear, a cool coffee would be unpleasant to drink.

Americans never drink anything room temperature if we have the choice.

"Normal" Coffee is brewed hot and will go stale if it sits too long before drinking.

[Peelee]

The problem with that analogy is that the allosaurus does "bark". Let's run through the characteristics of lizards:

• Four limbs
• Egg laying
• Endoskeletion
• Cold blooded (maybe the real one might not have been, but the pop cultures ones are)
• Long tails
• Overlapping, keratinous scales

Ok, so for pop culture cold bloodedness, can you cite a source for me? Because in current pop culture (not pre-1950s pop culture where you would be correct), dinosaurs are warm blooded. Here is my citation.


Also, platypus fit almsot all of that criteria quite well. And, regardless, you make an excellent case for why the name "dinosaur" was originally coined. You make zero case as to why their name determines what they are. I can find an extinct bird and call it "tiny hippopotamus". That doesn't make the bird a type of hippopotamus. That makes my name taxonomically incorrect.

[Deathhappens]

No, no, I'm with Belkar on this one. This is extremely cool.

[Doug Lampert]

I mean, "Suppress Weakness" and "Overcome weakness" are literally feats described in draconomicon that allow to do excatly that (remove energy vulnerability). And 2 levels in Mindbender class specifically allow someone to communicate telepathically with creatures in a range of 100ft, and give the ability to give suggestion using that telepathy

For Kaed:
Any time you're not sure if something can be done in 3.x D&D, assume that it can be done.

Seriously, there is so much crap published for 3.x and derivative systems it's silly.

And despite Rich's comments about not caring about the details of the rules, he gets them right with astonishing regularity.

[KorvinStarmast]

I wonder if the point isn't that the dragon has the sword, but that Roy doesn't have it.

That was my take.

As to Rich knowing the rules: heck, he wrote at least one supplement, didn't he?

[Aedilred]

The problem with that analogy is that the allosaurus does "bark". Let's run through the characteristics of lizards:

• Four limbs
• Egg laying
• Endoskeletion
• Cold blooded (maybe the real one might not have been, but the pop cultures ones are)
• Long tails
• Overlapping, keratinous scales

Some lizards have no legs. Some are viviparous. I think it's also correct to say that all (legged) lizards are quadrupedal, even if some of them can run on their hind legs for short distances, whereas many dinosaurs, including the Allosaurus, are bipedal. Dinosaurs also famously have erect legs, whereas all lizards have a splayed stance. And I'm also pretty sure that dinosaurs don't, by default, have overlapping scales: this is (again iirc) one of the main distinguishing features between squamates and archosaurs.

The name "dinosaur" was coined back when taxonomy in general was in its infancy and the early palaeontologists had put the skeletons together wrong, so they were associated with liza. But that dinosaurs are not lizards has been known for... I want to say about 160 years? And nobody these days, even the lowest-denominator pop-culture, presents Crystal-Palace-style dinosaurs as having been a thing, so the confusion should be much less obvious. In any case, I don't think it's really fair to argue association by reference to (grandfathered) taxonomic translations and then ignore the actual taxonomy.

Really, crocodiles have a lot more superficially in common with lizards than dinosaurs do, but I've also never heard anyone trying to argue that they're actually lizards.

Also, platypus fit almsot all of that criteria quite well. And, regardless, you make an excellent case for why the name "dinosaur" was originally coined. You make zero case as to why their name determines what they are. I can find an extinct bird and call it "tiny hippopotamus". That doesn't make the bird a type of hippopotamus. That makes my name taxonomically incorrect.

I mean on that very point, "hippopotamus" means "water horse". A hippopotamus is not actually a horse, and anyone who tries to argue that it is is being very silly.