Evil character wielding an holy weapon for a Good purpose

[Samael Morgenst]

Let's suppose there is that Chaotic Evil mercenary.
He's a sinner, a drunkard, a lustful man that paid prostitutes, gambled, brawled and stealed.

But he's not completely heartless and now he's defending a church filled with innocents, mostly women and children. He's ready to give his own life for them. To face the fiends attacking the church, he needs a powerful weapon but the weapon he can use is an Holy, Good aligned sword.

So he prays , with genuine intent, the Good deity of that church to forgive his misdeeds just temporarily, so he can defend those innocents, and grabs the holy sword.

Should he receive the negative levels?

[Buufreak]

Yes. Plus filler.

[Crake]

Yes. Plus filler.

Well, not so fast. The atonement spell exists, and could feasably change the character’s alignment to good in that moment, cast as a blessing to the character as a divine act by the deity.

It would require literal divine intervention, but its POSSIBLE that they would have an alignment change and be able to wield the holy weapon without penalty.

But it wouldnt happen just because the character wanted it do, and I imagine he would recieve a geas of some kind to prove his devotion to this new alignment.

If he only wanted temporary reprieve, and intends to return to his old ways afterwards, I dont see a god granting him such a boon, rather just send down an angel to do the work

Actually, another option might be celestial channeling, sending in an angel to possess him, and wield the sword through him, as sort of a middle ground between the two.

As an aside, based on the description, i would probably categorise him as chaotic neutral, not really evil. Maybe some minor evil tendencies, but just seems like his biggest crimes are succumbing to vice, not really evil. Sinful maybe, but not evil

[Inevitability]

Let's flip it around: this guy is standing bravely in defense of innocents, ready to endanger, perhaps to sacrifice, his own life so they have a chance of survival: why wouldn't he be Good?

If your answer is 'because of all the evil in his past', then consider that D&D doesn't seem to care about evil in one's past, not necessarily. As in, there's certainly no innate contradiction between having lots of unrepented-for evil in one's past and being nonevil. Some examples:

-The FCII rules for corruption points make clear that a character might have done enough evil to be condemned to Hell upon death while still being Lawful Good. The existence of hellbred points to the same.

-Magical alignment-changing effects (and nonmagical ones, like Divine Agent's level 8 feature) switch alignment around without altering a character's history.

-The BoED makes mention of a character (the first sample exalted NPC) whose conversion to good happened quite suddenly as a result of a mindset shift rather than a good deed, and who before this event seemed to have been more of a neutral ally with a shady past.

-A good character who commits a single sufficiently evil act may suddenly fall to evil, regardless of all past Good done.


In short, a single drastic deed of self-sacrifice and altruism should be able to render a previously-evil character good or at least neutral. There's some caveats - such a character might certainly be in a more precarious position alignment-wise, and might without further effort still be destined for an Evil afterlife, but for short-term worldly effects, I don't see why a genuine act so opposed to a Chaotic Evil alignment could not serve to set a character on the path to redemption.

[Morphic tide]

Heroes of Horror page 76-77 gives an option that'd make this pretty much the norm, in Behavioral Alignment. Under that, Alignment is a property of in-the-moment intentions and actions rather than a running tally, resulting in Alignment mechanics typically being temporary. It'd mean that you only suffer negative levels from an opposite-alignment weapon property while in the middle of acting so contrary, which would be the brawling and theft. Maybe the prostitutes depending on how forceful he was and potentially on if the pimp/madam is harsh enough about it to constitute sexual slavery.

Strangely enough, the Alignment rules seem to treat vices as more of a Law/Chaos thing than a Good/Evil one. The Exalted Vows covering a lot of vices seems to be a matter of self-sacrifice being Good rather than doing near-fatal amounts of drugs being necessarily Evil.

[Inevitability]

Strangely enough, the Alignment rules seem to treat vices as more of a Law/Chaos thing than a Good/Evil one. The Exalted Vows covering a lot of vices seems to be a matter of self-sacrifice being Good rather than doing near-fatal amounts of drugs being necessarily Evil.

The BoVD seems pretty unsubtle about the whole 'Drugs are Evil' thing, doesn't it?

[Samael Morgenst]

If he only wanted temporary reprieve, and intends to return to his old ways afterwards, I dont see a god granting him such a boon, rather just send down an angel to do the work

He'll probably not survive long enough to return to his old ways afterwards and he knows it.
He's buying the innocents time to flee, at the cost of his own life.

Maybe the prostitutes depending on how forceful he was and potentially on if the pimp/madam is harsh enough about it to constitute sexual slavery.

Errr, no, no. He isn't an abuser. But he attended brothels, which is immoral.

[spectralphoenix]

I'd say it really depends on his outlook going forward. Is he a changed man? If he does miraculously survive the fight, will he go off and murder someone to blow off steam? It's absolutely possible to be an evil man who occasionally does good deeds. A racist swordsman who heroically defends humans but murders elves for sport isn't good when he's doing good and evil when he's doing evil. Neither is the lolrandom chaotic who just happened to roll "00 - Paladin for the Day". He can change instantly, without "paying off the debt," but he has to actually change, not just be the same guy who happens to be doing good in this instance.

[Samael Morgenst]

I'd say it really depends on his outlook going forward. Is he a changed man? If he does miraculously survive the fight, will he go off and murder someone to blow off steam?

No, but he'll probabably storm to the nearest inn for an alcholic orgy to celebrate his survival.

From the Book of Vile Darkness, page 41:

Addiction Rating: Drugs are rated according to their addictive potential. For example, many popular stimulant drinks
have a negligible addiction rating, but have addictive qualities all the same

According to the game rules, alcholic beverages are considered drugs. Drugs and addictions are considered Evil.


To quote Dragon Magazine, which is the official d&d magazine:

Temptation and
Redemption Points

Part of walking the path of good is
resisting rhe temptation to do evil things
and successfully putting such thoughts
out of one's mind. Fighting rhe urges that
come naturally* conflicted individuals try
to do the right thing, offering compas¬
sion* mercy, and generosity to others.
Most shun the things and people that
enabled their bad behavior, making it
almost impossible to return to rhe old
way of life. However* rhe things that evil
people avoid while trying lo redeem
themselves are the same temptations
that bring good people down.


As a way of keeping track of the good
and evil that a conflicted character com¬
mits during his life* the DM can use an
optional rule to find out if their align¬
ment should shift to one more befitting
rhe characters actions* To do this* the
DM makes use of two different types of
points that track rhe good and evil
actions of a character-temptation points
and redemption points. The seven deadly
sins listed above can be used as guide¬
lines to help the DM determine if and
when a character should acquire one of
these points. As rhe character gains
these points, rhe character's alignment
can shift toward good or evil.

Temptation points can be gained when
a character willingly performs an evil
act. This could be something as oven as
murder* theft* unprovoked assault* and
rhe like, or something more subtle such
as telling a tie when falsehood is unnec¬
essary* Each temptation point pushes the
character closer to evil*


*General Temptations and DC temptation check*


Lied, cheated, or stole when it was unnecessary 10

Succumbed to an addiction (drugs, evil magic, or alcohol) 15

*Prideful Actions*

Excessive boasting DC 10

*Lustful Action*

Acted in a lewd manner DC 10

*Ignored more important matters for satisfy his lust* DC 15

This man is constantly bragging about his strenght and feats, constantly ogling the inn maids, visits brothels, gets drunk and gambles away what he earns as a mercenary.

According to the rules, he's Evil. Not *Vile* evil because he don't murder innocents, torture, rape or the like, but still Evil.

[Morphic tide]

The BoVD seems pretty unsubtle about the whole 'Drugs are Evil' thing, doesn't it?

Given that the spells for forcing addiction and producing Liquid Pain do not have the [Evil] descriptor, it seems to be included as a pull factor furnishing the temptations rather than being Evil itself.

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, at least he paid the prostitutes, instead of trying to take their services for free... But that's more of a lawful thing than a good thing.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No, but he'll probabably storm to the nearest inn for an alcholic orgy to celebrate his survival.

From the Book of Vile Darkness, page 41:

Addiction Rating: Drugs are rated according to their addictive potential. For example, many popular stimulant drinks
have a negligible addiction rating, but have addictive qualities all the same

According to the game rules, alcholic beverages are considered drugs. Drugs and addictions are considered Evil.

Shouldn't dwarves be Lawful Evil, then?

[icefractal]

I wouldn't look to the BoVD / BoED as good sources for alignment if you're trying to take it seriously. They operate on a somewhat ascetic morality which isn't appropriate for a setting that has good-aligned gods with hedonic portfolios, which most D&D settings are.

Most of the BoED Vows would make more sense as Lawful things - not because the things they bar are inherently Chaotic, but because "maintaining a strict code for no purpose other than to uphold your devotion" seems like a Lawful thing to do.

[Buufreak]

No, but he'll probabably storm to the nearest inn for an alcholic orgy to celebrate his survival.

So he didn't change. He just did a single selfless thing for... some reason that doesn't appear apparent or in character, and afterward would go back to being a bastard almost immediately.

I stick with my original answer. Yes, penalty for touching the holy weapon incurred.

[Crake]

According to the game rules, alcholic beverages are considered drugs. Drugs and addictions are considered Evil.

Don’t conflate the fact that drugs are in the bovd with the notion that all drugs = evil.

If you actually go through and read the drug rules, youll see that at no point are drugs mentioned as being inherently evil. There are some drugs that are created through vile means, like torture, or killing fey, or one is even made from plants that grow in the abyss, but plenty of others have perfectly mundane and non-evil origins.

But nothing about the use of a nonspecific drug in general is ever stated as being evil.

As for the dragon magazine stuff, a lot of people dont use dragon magazine, because its not actually written by wotc, but even if it was, that temptation points thing looks… really dumb

[Darg]

Let's suppose there is that Chaotic Evil mercenary.
He's a sinner, a drunkard, a lustful man that paid prostitutes, gambled, brawled and stealed.

But he's not completely heartless and now he's defending a church filled with innocents, mostly women and children. He's ready to give his own life for them. To face the fiends attacking the church, he needs a powerful weapon but the weapon he can use is an Holy, Good aligned sword.

So he prays , with genuine intent, the Good deity of that church to forgive his misdeeds just temporarily, so he can defend those innocents, and grabs the holy sword.

Should he receive the negative levels?

Then you should really ask if they are truly chaotic evil. He perfectly fits the definition of someone not evil because an evil person wouldn't care about "innocents" in any way. At most it would be more like they're property or necessary for a livelihood.

I'd actually argue this person is chaotic neutral. To have genuine intent and actual understanding of the gravity of their sins in a way that would be repentant enough for gods to care would definitely warrant an alignment shift from evil.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Then you should really ask if they are truly chaotic evil. He perfectly fits the definition of someone not evil because an evil person wouldn't care about "innocents" in any way. At most it would be more like they're property or necessary for a livelihood.

I'd actually argue this person is chaotic neutral. To have genuine intent and actual understanding of the gravity of their sins in a way that would be repentant enough for gods to care would definitely warrant an alignment shift from evil.

I've had an Evil (albeit Lawful) character who actually fit in quite well with a Good-aligned group, because he usually would be among the first to insist that the party help innocent bystanders, generally if violence was involved.

However, it was because he had traumas in his past that he couldn't get over, rather than some innate sense of right and wrong, and he thoroughly enjoyed visiting his "revenge" on victimizers to sate the rage bubbling below the surface. He was very much a sadist and enjoyed watching other evil people suffer.

He was just smart and wise enough to direct that hate and sadism on people he felt deserved it, and "helping the innocent" was a good outlet for that.

He did like animals and was tolerant of small children, however, and was especially protective of them.

[Duke of Urrel]

Let's suppose there is that Chaotic Evil mercenary.
He's a sinner, a drunkard, a lustful man that paid prostitutes, gambled, brawled and stealed.

But he's not completely heartless and now he's defending a church filled with innocents, mostly women and children. He's ready to give his own life for them. To face the fiends attacking the church, he needs a powerful weapon but the weapon he can use is an Holy, Good aligned sword.

So he prays , with genuine intent, the Good deity of that church to forgive his misdeeds just temporarily, so he can defend those innocents, and grabs the holy sword.

Should he receive the negative levels?

I agree with all the others who say "Yes." You cannot wipe away a long habit of doing Evil with one single unquestionably Good deed. The will to do Good is very nice, but it's not real until after you put it into action. So if this mercenary really wants to take up the Holy sword and fight the fiends (are they at least Lawful rather than Chaotic?), then he has to take the negative levels when he does it.

But can't an Evil mercenary repent and change into a Good one? To this, I say "Yes" again. But in order to become Good (and in order to receive an Atonement spell from a cleric that will actually work), you have to be serious. And nobody, no Good cleric and no Good deity, is going to take a life-long Chaotic-Evil mercenary at his word. They are going to demand proof. But in order to prove that you're serious, you have to be willing to be tested.

What kind of test would be appropriate? I don't know, but how about this: Take up a Holy sword and defend a church full of innocent people against murderous fiends in spite of having to suffer negative levels while you do it. This is the test, should you choose to accept it.

I can actually hear a Good cleric uttering these very words and demanding this heroic act as proof of worthiness of Atonement. (And you have to promise, for the rest of your life, never to revert to Evil again, and when you promise this, you have to mean it, no bluffing!) Good clerics are not fools, and neither are their deities.


Post-Script: Hmmm. I just thought of something. Good clerics and their deities may just brush you off, but what about a Chaotic-Neutral deity? What if you went to a cleric of Olidammara and made a deal? Could a cleric of Olidammara remove the taint of Evil from your soul without having to make you all the way Good? I don't have a preconceived judgement about this. It's worth considering.

Post-Post-Script: Here's another thing. Your alignment is not like the weather. It's more like the climate of your soul. Alignment change is not like a sudden change of the weather, like a sudden break of the sun through the clouds. It's more like climate change. Evil creatures may not commit Evil acts continually, all the time, without interruption, and they may not spend all of their free time scheming to do even more Evil. They may take breaks. Heck, they may even take vacations. (Laziness is perfectly compatible with Evil.) But this doesn't mean that Evil creatures turn non-Evil while they're on vacation.

[Crake]

Post-Script: Hmmm. I just thought of something. Good clerics and their deities may just brush you off, but what about a Chaotic-Neutral deity? What if you went to a cleric of Olidammara and made a deal? Could a cleric of Olidammara remove the taint of Evil from your soul without having to make you all the way Good? I don't have a preconceived judgement about this. It's worth considering.

Considering that atonement brings you to the alignment of the caster, I’d say the answer is unequivocally yes.

[Duke of Urrel]

Considering that atonement brings you to the alignment of the caster, I’d say the answer is unequivocally yes.

I tentatively agree that Olidammara is capable of expunging Evil from your soul, since he is not himself Evil. (Some will insist that to really get rid of Evil, you need the power of Good, just as you cannot rid yourself of Chaos except with the power of Law.)


But although Olidammara is not Good, he is no fool either. Also, he is not particularly generous (unless he's in that kind of mood), and he is not overly interested in making Evil people non-Evil (or Good people non-Good). Besides, Olidammara has a reputation to maintain as a semi-honorable scoundrel. If he did too many favors for Chaotic-Evil mercenaries – and then they went on to betray him later – then he would start to look both biased and foolish, which would undermine the success of his future trickery – and he is canny enough to be well aware of this pitfall. Olidammara has to balance out his favors for Evil supplicants with some favors for Good supplicants in order to keep his scams going, and he may regard this as too much of a headache. Instead of involving himself in too many Atonements one way or the other*, I think Olidammara prefers just to get drunk** and have fun.

Olidammara's clerics, for their part, will probably just let some Divination spell decide what Olidammara's will is. The trickster god's will may well change from day to day (or even from hour to hour), but he probably won't appreciate being asked repeatedly for the same favor by the same person over and over again, because, you know, he's got parties to attend.

___________________
*By "one way or the other," I mean with respect to Good or Evil. If some Lawful person came to Olidammara begging him to make them Chaotic, he would be very interested.

**I agree with people who say that drinking alcohol – in moderation, sure! – is not Evil by itself, though it would be harder to argue that it was compatible with Lawfulness (unless you raise the moderation up to eleven). As evidence for this, I offer you the dwarven god Hanseath, god of "carousing and barbarians," who is Chaotic-Neutral, not Evil.

[Ignimortis]

Let's suppose there is that Chaotic Evil mercenary.
He's a sinner, a drunkard, a lustful man that paid prostitutes, gambled, brawled and stealed.

But he's not completely heartless and now he's defending a church filled with innocents, mostly women and children. He's ready to give his own life for them.

How is that Chaotic Evil, again? The whole point of alignment being descriptive rather than prescriptive, this man doesn't sound like an evil person, just someone without a strong moral compass or code in his regular life. Paying for negotiable affection, drinking, gambling, brawling, and even stealing (depending on the target) do not automatically make you evil. If anything, the guy sounds like Chaotic Neutral, or even some very rowdy variant of Chaotic Good since he is willing to lay down his life to protect innocents. A less-polished swashbuckler hero could generally fit into your description while still being noble enough of spirit to qualify as Good, and I don't think anyone would bat an eye if this were supposed to be a Chaotic Neutral character.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How is that Chaotic Evil, again? The whole point of alignment being descriptive rather than prescriptive, this man doesn't sound like an evil person, just someone without a strong moral compass or code in his regular life. Paying for negotiable affection, drinking, gambling, brawling, and even stealing (depending on the target) do not automatically make you evil. If anything, the guy sounds like Chaotic Neutral, or even some very rowdy variant of Chaotic Good since he is willing to lay down his life to protect innocents. A less-polished swashbuckler hero could generally fit into your description while still being noble enough of spirit to qualify as Good, and I don't think anyone would bat an eye if this were supposed to be a Chaotic Neutral character.

Does anyone else here realize that this describes Batman rather well? Between his Bruce Wayne persona and his Batman identity, he does a lot of the more "questionable" things described above.

Think about it for a minute.

[Ignimortis]

Does anyone else here realize that this describes Batman rather well? Between his Bruce Wayne persona and his Batman identity, he does a lot of the more "questionable" things described above.

Think about it for a minute.

batman-alignment-chart-meme.jpg

And, because he's Batman, the holy sword would not give him negative levels. Some writers would even pull the "in fact, Batman can unlock the sword's hidden powers because he's so awesome and cool" schtick.

[Baroncognito]

My first instinct is that a standard Holy Sword doesn't know what's going on. It has a magical field that detects alignment in some fashion and that magic does one thing if it's being wielded by evil and one thing if it damages evil. It cannot react to the situation because it's not really there.

An intelligent holy weapon, I think, could potentially be bargained with.

[Curse]

The moment the character touches the sword in order to wield it (or mabe before the game if possible) I would ask the player what motivation the character has to be in this situation. What are the actual thoughts of the character?
If the character had an epiphany and is genuinely defending innocents I don't think he should get negative levels.
If the character is still on track and e.g. just wants to use the sword as the most potent weapon in range while not caring about other people, I think he should get negative levels.
(Under the assumption that the character has actually been evil so far. If he is not evil the situation is solved anyways).
As DM and player you are in the fortunate situation that you can actually talk about the real in-game motivation without deception being a factor (as long as the player will not lie about his character as that would be a completely different issue).

[Satinavian]

Evil characters can do the occasional good deed without stopping being evil.
Evil Characters do get the negative level.

Gods actually answering prayers and changing the properties of weapons on a whim is something a GM could do. But i generally would not. Actual wonders should be something extremely rare. For everything else gods have their clerics.

[El Dorado]

Is the weapon intelligent? Does the weapon have a special purpose? Those factors could add more wrinkles to the interaction.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Just a thought, but hitting the character with a negative level is actually punishing him for doing a good deed and discouraging him from being a better person.

[Buufreak]

Just a thought, but hitting the character with a negative level is actually punishing him for doing a good deed and discouraging him from being a better person.

As RAW intended, as it should always be. Praise be to RAW.

[Crake]

And, because he's Batman, the holy sword would not give him negative levels. Some writers would even pull the "in fact, Batman can unlock the sword's hidden powers because he's so awesome and cool" schtick.

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised that batman has UMD ranks, and just used the emulate an alignment function of UMD to fake a good alignment, surely not that difficult for him.