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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default What you can get for +1 LA

    So I was browsing the SRD for some reason and I came across the a monster race with the highest benefit/LA ratio, almost disgustingly so. A race that recieves countless bonuses for only a miniscule level adjustment, a race that has been hiding in obscurity.
    I mean of course, the bugbear. Take a look at what the SRD has to say about Bugbears as characters
    Bugbears As Characters
    Bugbear characters possess the following racial traits.

    +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
    Medium size.
    A bugbear’s base land speed is 30 feet.
    Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1.
    Racial Skills: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot.
    Racial Feats: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it two feats.
    +3 natural armor bonus.
    +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
    Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., scent.
    Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
    Favored Class: Rogue.
    Level adjustment +1.
    So for a level adjustment of 1 you get, 2 feats, 3d8 average HP, +2 BAB, lots of stat bonuses with the only minus being in Charisma, the munchkiners dump stat, a not-to shabby natural armor bonus. Lets say you had a bugbear 1st level fighter, with the nonelite array and under 500 gp in gear arranged reasonably he could have have
    16 Str(+3), 14 Con (+2), 13 dex (+1), 10 int, 9 wis, 6 cha.
    he would have (1d10+3d8+2) Hit points, which averages out to 24. A BAB of 3, which gives him a +6 on meelee attacks with a one handed weapon. Also, with a longsword he would have an average damage of 7, just alone he has an AC of 14, but with some banded mail and a heavy sheild, neither of which are too expensive, I don't know the WBL system but I'm preety sure a 2nd level character can afford those, his AC is 22 and this is on a 2nd level character! He also gets 3 feats.
    Now, A challenging encounter for a Human fighter (2nd level) is CR 1/2, for this bugbear a challenging encounter is twice that. That would be, according to the encounter calculator, 2 hobgoblins. A hobgoblin has a Total attack bonus of +2 with melee weapons, which means that it needs a natural 20 just to hit our bugbear here at all.
    Now lets assume everything goes 100% statistical, and that all rolls are average.
    those 2 hobgoblins are both attacking him every turn, meaning that statistically they will beat his AC once every 10 turns, since each has a one in twenty chance of hitting him every turn. If they do hit him, assuming average damage, each time they hit him he will take 5 damage from his 24HP, meaning they need to hit him 5 times to get him to negetives. According to straight probability, it will take them 50 turns to kill him.
    Meanwhile, those hobgoblins have an AC of 15 and 6 HP, so our bugbear, who deals 7 average damage with his longsword, can one-shot them with ease. He also gets +6 on every attack, meaning that he hits them on a nine or above. this means that he will hit 11 out of 20 times he attacks them. in short, theres a good chance that he will be able to down this "Challenging" encounter without taking any damage at all.
    So yeah, bugbears are overpowered.
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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Racial hit dice count towards levels; bugbears are 4th level characters before they receive their first class level. Your 1st level bugbear fighter is equivalent with a 5th level human fighter or a 4th level hobgoblin fighter, either of which will quite probably wipe the floor with the bugbear (even considering the legendary crappiness of hobgoblin LA).

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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    The best +1 LA pound-for-pound is probably the Mineral Warrior template: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e.
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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    I think you are misunderstanding the racial hitdie. The level 1 Bugbear fighter is actually L4, ECL L5. He's a L3 Bugbear/L1 Fighter. So while the L2 Fighter has a good AC and a good + to hit, he's technically supposed to be the equivalent of a L6 character, and is one-shotting hobgoblins as he should be. Don't get me wrong, Bugbears aren't bad, but there's a different comparison here.

    Let's say a Human Fighter 6 vs a Bugbear fighter 2. Both are ECL 6. We'll go with a 16, 14, 12, 12, 10, 8 array. So, the Bugbear probably has

    STR 16 (base) + 4 (racial) + 1 (ECL 4 bump) = 21 (+5)
    DEX 12 (base) + 2 (racial) = 14 (+2)
    CON 14 (base) + 2 (racial) = 16 (+3)
    INT 10 (+0)
    WIS 12 (+1)
    CHA 8 (base) -2 (racial)= 6 (-2)

    So, 3d8+9+2d10+6 HP= 42. He gets +2 BaB from his racial hit dice and +2 BaB from his fighter levels, giving him +4 BaB total. So with a +1 weapon (not unheard of at ECL 6) he's rocking a +9 to hit. With a Breastplate and assuming a two handed weapon (no shield), he's looking at an AC of 10+5(bp)+2(dex)+ 3(nat armor)= 20. Let's say he's got a Greatsword. So that's 2d6 + 7 (1 1/2 STR) +1 (weapon)= 16 damage a hit.

    The human fighter 6 is probably going to use a similar spread.

    STR 16 (+3)
    DEX 12 (+1)
    CON 14 (+2)
    INT 10 (+0)
    WIS 12 (+1)
    CHA 8 (-1)

    His HP is going to look like 6d10+12, or about 48. He has a straight +6/+1 Base attack bonus. With the same +1 weapon, he'll be swinging for +10/+5. With the same breastplate, his AC is about 10+5(bp)+1(dex)= 16, which is pretty lame. Granted, with a 12 on DEX, he'd probably use full plate and then have 10+ 8(FP) +1 (DEX)= 19, which is still lower than the bugbear. The greatsword wielding human looks at 2d6 + 4 (1 1/2 STR)+ 1(weapon) is about 13 damage.

    So the bugbear hits less often but for more damage and has a higher Armor class. I think that the bugbear is then roughly in the same boat as a +0 LA class. I'd say Bugbears are good, but not ZOMG burn them! They are overpowered!

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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Fire-Souled is also a great trade for 1 LA.
    Free leadership, +4 Charisma, immunity to stunning and daze.
    gives free morale bonus to allies within 10'.
    and a couple other abilities.

    Lolth touched from monster manual 4 is also great.
    +6 str and con, +4 to hide and MS, and immunity to fear.
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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Yup...the LA modifier is stacked on top of their hit dice and class levels to determine the effective character level, or ECL of the monster. So yes, a bugbear with one level in fighter would have an ECL of (3 HD+1 level+1 LA) = 5 ECL.

    They would start the game using the XP progression starting from the amount from 5-6, or 5k to level up to 2nd level.

    Doing the math on progression, a bugbear will outpace a 'base' race in terms of ECL at any given experience until around lvl 17.

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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Going to second Lolth-Touched.

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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Feral is very very good, assuming the DM rules that the HD-dependent abilities count HDs gained by level and not just racial. If it's only racial then it's a balanced template, but otherwise it's just giving away Pounce, Rend, Rake, Improved Grab, Scent, Darkvision, Natural Armor, good melee ability adjustments, and Fast Healing for a LA +1

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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Hrm, I see. But then why have LA at all if they arn't factoring in the HD.
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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    I personally like Blooded One from Unapproachable East.

    Nat Armor +2
    War Cry
    +2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int

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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloddyredcommie View Post
    Hrm, I see. But then why have LA at all if they arn't factoring in the HD.
    They are separate but together.
    It's a bit confusing to get at first, but, that +1 LA is still there. It's still 1 blank level.

    The bugbear is ECL 4, 3 HD + 1 LA.
    That's the use of LA.

    (It's still a badly implemented system, however)
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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloddyredcommie View Post
    Hrm, I see. But then why have LA at all if they arn't factoring in the HD.
    Because LA is what you add to HD to determine ECL. Not LA + class levels.
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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Quote Originally Posted by SweetRein View Post
    Fire-Souled is also a great trade for 1 LA.
    Free leadership, +4 Charisma, immunity to stunning and daze.
    gives free morale bonus to allies within 10'.
    and a couple other abilities.
    I think Fire Souled's LA is actually 3. It's one of the errors on crystal keep.
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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Armads View Post
    I think Fire Souled's LA is actually 3. It's one of the errors on crystal keep.
    Ah, ok, that sucks. Thank you for pointing that out.

    At least I made sure to check the other one.
    Last edited by Reinboom; 2007-12-16 at 03:28 AM.
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloddyredcommie View Post
    Hrm, I see. But then why have LA at all if they arn't factoring in the HD.
    Basically, Racial HD are an additional penalty to taking the race as a character; they're useless compared to class levels, but not as bad as another X LA (and actually, Outsider or Dragon hit dice are pretty good.) They also represent that some monsters are significantly tougher than humans and their ilk just through natural ability.

    As for my favorite LA +1? Screw it, if you want to sacrifice a level, take a level in Sorcerer. Even if you only have 11 Cha, there's plenty of level 1 spells that are nifty to have.
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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Basically, Racial HD are an additional penalty to taking the race as a character; they're useless compared to class levels, but not as bad as another X LA (and actually, Outsider or Dragon hit dice are pretty good.) They also represent that some monsters are significantly tougher than humans and their ilk just through natural ability.

    As for my favorite LA +1? Screw it, if you want to sacrifice a level, take a level in Sorcerer. Even if you only have 11 Cha, there's plenty of level 1 spells that are nifty to have.
    and 2.5 + HP, and +2 to will saves, and 2+ int skill points, and 1/3 of a feat, and 1/4 of a stat, and max skill ranks increase and...

    The issue, however:
    Multiclassing experience penalties.
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Humans for the win.
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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Monsters get Racial HitDie to fill them out, buffing them up to an appropriate strength, without using class levels. Once they get to about how physically strong they should be (hps, bab, saves) what is left over is then balanced out by LA, which is just a pure empty placeholder.

    WHat the LA is placeholding is the extra abilities (NA, DR, spelllike abilities, size, reach, special attacks, etc etc..) that werent really compensated by RHD because that would have made the mosnter too strong. It basically exists only to bump up their ECL so the DM can make an accurate prediction using the CR system. Unfortunately, the whole system is burdensome and rife with problems.

    So RHD and LA both compensate for extra abilities, but RHD also buff the monster in their own right, and LA is just a blank slot to pump up the CR to an appropriate level.

    For example, take giants... you could give them 0 LA and all RHD so they end up with the same ECL, but then you have a monster with FAR more hps, higher BaB, and better saves than the original, and hence, the CR is much higher.

    Anyhow, for a race that is worth every last xp point of their +1LA, you should take a look at duergar.
    Last edited by daggaz; 2007-12-16 at 08:41 AM.

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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Quote Originally Posted by daggaz View Post
    For example, take giants... you could give them 0 LA and all RHD so they end up with the same ECL, but then you have a monster with FAR more hps, higher BaB, and better saves than the original, and hence, the CR is much higher.
    I think I see what you're saying here, but it's phrased in a very backwards manner.

    A monster is created by a designer. The monster has such-and-such abilities. It's a decent challenge for a party of level X, so it's CR X. It may have more or fewer than X HD, depending on its other abilities and how much they alter the challenge it poses.

    HD come first.

    If someone then wants to play that monster as a character, they'll be getting its Y HD and resultant BAB, saves, HP etc. They'll also be getting other abilites, such as ability score bonuses/penalties, special attacks, special qualities, type traits, etc. Depending on the monster, these may balance out; Goblins and Orcs, say, have enough of a mix of good and bad qualities that they're +0 LA. Other monsters have abilities that make them better than a humanoid of Y class levels, so they get some LA. LA comes after HD in the design process.

    This is why people looking at RHD + LA + ECL get confused. It's not a clean or sensible system. It's not designed from the ground up to achieve a clear purpose. A monster's Hit Die are part of its existence as a monster for heroes to fight. If people want to play it as a character, then LA gets brought in and, as a tacked-on fix for something that wasn't really intended by the designers to be viable, it plays badly and makes you weaker than your buddies.

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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    My favorite +1 LA templates are either Draconic (Draconomicon) or Dark Creature (Tome of Magic). They don't supply insane supernatural abilities or any spell-like abilities, but they're concise, to the point, and they've got some nice (mostly-passive) benefits. Applied to a human or other standard, non-HD/La race, they can be bought off for a mere 3,000 XP if you're using the Reducing Level Adjustments variant from Unearthed Arcana (my preferred ruleset includes this option). Using this variant, you'll likely catch up to your party level-wise rather quickly.

    Draconic adds a respectable +2 Str, Con, and Cha as well as a natural weapon (albeit weak), Darkvision, Low-Light Vision, some natural armor, a small bonus to Spot and Intimidate, and a bonus to certain saves. Good, mostly, for melee characters and Cha-based casters (especially hexblades). Plus, if you're going for Dragonblood feats and such, you automatically qualify (Races of the Dragon adds the Dragonblooded subtype to creatures with the Draconic template).

    Dark Creature adds +10 ft. to all movement rates, 10 points of cold resistance (not bad, although perhaps a bit circumstantial), healthly bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, Darkvision, Superior Low-Light Vision, and Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) as long as you're not in sunlight or daylight. Great for a stealth-based character of any class.

    The Shadow Creature template from Lords of Madness is also nice, but perhaps a bit more abusable because it adds new abilities (including the possibility of fast healing and plane shift) every 4 HD - more likely to be nerfed or banned by some DM's.
    Last edited by ghost_warlock; 2007-12-16 at 09:58 AM.

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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    The original half-minotaur?

    Wasn't that something like +16 str on a normal creature, and large size?

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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Aasimar seems nice for paladins.

    Orc and Ogre also look quite nice for barbarian/fighter types, imho.
    Altough being 'dazzled' in sunlight is slightly annyoing for orcs, and ogres basically have to put 14 into int (well, that, or someone in the group constantly has to translate common to giant...).

    Oh and.. whatya think about pixie for cha/skillmonkey rogues and bards?

    /E: Err, wait, this was about LA +1... nvm the part about ogres and pixies. /E2: and orcs, for that matter. They don't have LA.
    Last edited by #Raptor; 2007-12-16 at 11:46 AM.

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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Well, for a +1 LA you can be a catgirl.

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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Okay, I get it, so RHD is BAB, Saves, and Hit Die, LA is everything else.
    Well could you, for the sake of examples, take a monster race that you intend to use as a character, remove all HD and associated so for the bugbear example he wouldn't get the bugbears Hit Die, feats, BAB, or saves. Then Just use the LA stuff, the darkvision, the scent, the stat boosts ect, and throw class levels onto that?
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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloddyredcommie View Post
    Okay, I get it, so RHD is BAB, Saves, and Hit Die, LA is everything else.
    Well could you, for the sake of examples, take a monster race that you intend to use as a character, remove all HD and associated so for the bugbear example he wouldn't get the bugbears Hit Die, feats, BAB, or saves. Then Just use the LA stuff, the darkvision, the scent, the stat boosts ect, and throw class levels onto that?
    My group used to do that back when we still bothered with monstrous NPCs. In general, it doesn't really hurt that much, but in some cases it will overpower the character. Adjudicate on a case-by-case basis.
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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloddyredcommie View Post
    Okay, I get it, so RHD is BAB, Saves, and Hit Die, LA is everything else.
    Well could you, for the sake of examples, take a monster race that you intend to use as a character, remove all HD and associated so for the bugbear example he wouldn't get the bugbears Hit Die, feats, BAB, or saves. Then Just use the LA stuff, the darkvision, the scent, the stat boosts ect, and throw class levels onto that?
    That's often a bad idea, because the LA is balanced against the HD. For example, if you cut a Minotaur's HD off, you'd still get +8 str, +4 con, -4 int, -2 cha, large size, monstrous humanoid type, +5 natural armor, natural cunning, scent, and powerful charge (4d6+6), starting as a thrid level character. That'd be a monster.
    Last edited by martyboy74; 2007-12-16 at 01:52 PM.

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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloddyredcommie View Post
    Okay, I get it, so RHD is BAB, Saves, and Hit Die, LA is everything else.
    Well could you, for the sake of examples, take a monster race that you intend to use as a character, remove all HD and associated so for the bugbear example he wouldn't get the bugbears Hit Die, feats, BAB, or saves. Then Just use the LA stuff, the darkvision, the scent, the stat boosts ect, and throw class levels onto that?
    No, don't do this. The racial HD are part of the penalty for taking a powerful race, just like Level Adjustment. Getting rid of them and letting people take class levels instead is unbalancing.

    If you want to play a monstrous race at a lower level, check out the monstrous racial progressions in Savage Species, which give you your abilities and racial HD gradually and allow you to play, for example, a level 1 Ogre who's smaller and has lower ability bonuses, but grows into the normal Ogre abilities by "taking levels in Ogre".
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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Wasn't there a template in Dragon, white dragon spawn or something, which granted you a level of sorceror for +1 LA. Come on, you're not even TRYING to balance that one out.
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    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    Dark Creature adds +10 ft. to all movement rates, 10 points of cold resistance (not bad, although perhaps a bit circumstantial), healthly bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, Darkvision, Superior Low-Light Vision, and Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) as long as you're not in sunlight or daylight. Great for a stealth-based character of any class.
    Whoa, Dark's version of HiPS is (ex)!? That template is even awesomer than I'd thought. I'd go so far as to say that any stealthy character should take that, even if LA buyoff isn't allowed: The total of +14 to very useful skills is almost enough to justify it by itself, and it just gets better from there.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

    Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: What you can get for +1 LA

    The Shadow-Walker template from FRCS Unapproachable East is interesting with a Rogue, Ninja, Psychic Rogue, Factotum or combination of the classes and taking the Telfammer Shadowlord PRC.

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