Were... spider?

[Admiral Squish]

My DM actually let me make a were-monstrous spider. He's fun. So, I made him a ranger 2, ECL 5. I though it should work well enough, except everyone seems to be hatin' on the base classes. Dunno why, myself, they seem to work just fine.

Anyway, point is, I've got the question of additional limbs and not-fitting armor. If I change in leathers, do I blow up my armor? The bossman says I only get one extra set I can use for arms. Does the ranger's two-weapon combat style extend to these additional limbs? Since it's an alternate form, theres no time limit or limit of uses, so he'd be getting the same amount of practice, or just about. would these libs even be articulated enough to use for anything requiring articulation? How do I figure out a spider's claw damage? They don't give one in the books. The spider has a bite damage and poison. Do I get that in hybrid form? But to use my poison, I'd have to bite, and that'd be spreading the curse of lycanthropy. Then there's the webspinner/hunter thing. Do I have to pick which I'm a lycan from? Do I get full transfer of these things in hybrid form too?

It's a rather confusing situation.

[Skjaldbakka]

Well, by RAW, I don't think a were-spider is possible (IIRC, spiders are type Vermin, not type animal).

That being said, you should look at creatures like the Xeph and the Marilith for rules for multi-weapon fighting. I think the feat tree for that is in savage species though, and uses feats other than two-weapon fighting (so you won't get them from ranger w/o some kind of replacement level or other houserule).

-If I change in leathers, do I blow up my armor?

Yes. I believe the Wild enchantment would fix this problem, though.

-Does the ranger's two-weapon combat style extend to these additional limbs?

No, but it would not be an unreasonable houserule to get multi-weapon fighting instead.

-How do I figure out a spider's claw damage?

Default claw damage based on size is in the MM. But I can't seem to find the chart in the SRD.

-The spider has a bite damage and poison. Do I get that in hybrid form?

Yes.

-Then there's the webspinner/hunter thing. Do I have to pick which I'm a lycan from?

Don't Know.

[Fizban]

There's actually a variant template on the WoTC site for vermin lycanthropes, called the etomanothrope. I seem to have lost the link, so I'll go find it now, before I'm ninja'd.
Etomanothrope

[Admiral Squish]

Oh, wait, I just found this on the 'changing in leathers' issue.

Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

I think I can get that ruling out of my DM for only minimal bribery.

I'm still not sure the legs even work as claws. They could tarantula-like and soft.

Okay, biting works, then.

Hmm... I'm going with the webspinner, then Seems like more fun.

OOH! Could a were spider fashion clothes or cloth out of it's silk? That'd be pretty useful...

[Talic]

Oh, wait, I just found this on the 'changing in leathers' issue.


I think I can get that ruling out of my DM for only minimal bribery.

I'm still not sure the legs even work as claws. They could tarantula-like and soft.

Okay, biting works, then.

Hmm... I'm going with the webspinner, then Seems like more fun.

OOH! Could a were spider fashion clothes or cloth out of it's silk? That'd be pretty useful...

Bear in mind, it changes in size, not in shape. For simple enlargement, that's fine... But you're growing limbs.

Oh, and hunter would be more useful, jump checks are fun.

[Admiral Squish]

Hmm... That is an issue... But I've got magic leathers! Really nice magic leathers! Blowing them up would be a very bad thing.

Ah, but hunters don't get web-throws, or walls of web. Besides, who needs jump checks when you have a racial +8 and five ranks in climb?

[Talic]

Hmm... That is an issue... But I've got magic leathers! Really nice magic leathers! Blowing them up would be a very bad thing.

Ah, but hunters don't get web-throws, or walls of web. Besides, who needs jump checks when you have a racial +8 and five ranks in climb?

Leap attack... The much faster way over the ravine, etc etc.

Keep in mind, webs are flammable, and something the party wizard will be able to do at level 3. Being able to escape from a high speed pursuit by jumping from rooftop to rooftop, across seemingly impossible distances? That's priceless.

+8 racial, +3 Str, +5 ranks, that's +16, right there, which means a 20 foot running jump if you roll a 4. That's not counting a ring of jumping or anything.

Further, you've got a climb speed, so you also have a +8 racial modifier to that also, and with 5 ranks and a +3 str, you've got +16 on that, so using the running jump with climb will let you go the batman (non wizard, look at the actual hero) style high flying stuff. Add in ranger, and hiding and stuff, and you've got an excellent espionage character... (latch on the door is turning? Jump above the doorframe, and hold to the wall and ceiling with a hide check... one move action).

That's my preference at least. Using a web precludes using other things in combat. Jump is useful in more situations, and can be used in conjunction with other actions.

[Fizban]

Oh, wait, I just found this on the 'changing in leathers' issue.


I think I can get that ruling out of my DM for only minimal bribery.

I'm still not sure the legs even work as claws. They could tarantula-like and soft.

Okay, biting works, then.

Hmm... I'm going with the webspinner, then Seems like more fun.

OOH! Could a were spider fashion clothes or cloth out of it's silk? That'd be pretty useful...

I'm pretty sure you took that quote from polymorph, right? Lycanthropes use the alternate form ability, try the SRD which incorporates all errata for a fully updated entry.

[Mewtarthio]

There's actually a variant template on the WoTC site for vermin lycanthropes, called the etomanothrope. I seem to have lost the link, so I'll go find it now, before I'm ninja'd.
Etomanothrope

In case you're curious, the differences between the two:

Size & Type The entomanothrope gains an additional alternate form that's one size smaller than the base creature. Not that it matters: You're probably going to try and minimize vermin HD, so your normal vermin form should be the minimum size anyway.

Hit Points The entomanothrope's hit points don't change based on form. It gains the best of all forms in any form, which simplifies bookeeping.

Attacks Lycanthropes always have two claws and a bite in hybrid form, while entomanothropes just get whatever primary natural attack the base vermin had in addition to the base creature's natural attacks. Except werescorpions, who get to keep the claws.

Special Attack: Poison While all 'thropes get the special attacks of the base creature, entomanothropes are far more likely to have goodies like poison.

Special Attack: Curse This is actually the exact same as lycanthropy, but there's no LA difference between "afflicted" and "natural" entomanothropes, so you can go ahead and give this to yourself.

Special Quality: Alternate Form You can get a fly speed in your hybrid form from entomanothropy. Not that it matters for a werespider.

Special Quality: Damage Reduction You always get DR 5/silver in vermin or hybrid form if you're an entomanothrope. Natural entomanothropes get nothing special.

Special Quality: Empathy vs Command Lycanthropes get bonuses on interactions with their base animals, and can communicate simple commands. Entomanothropes can take control of them outright.

Special Quality: Senses Lycanthropes get Scent and Low-Light Vision. Entomanothropes get Darkvision (60 ft).

Special Quality: Immunities Entomanothropes get immunity to mind-affecting in all forms.

Abilities In addition to the usual alternate form changes and the 'thropic +2 Wis, entomanothropes get a -2 Int. Hey, there's no such thing as a free lunch, right?

Skills You don't have to waste anything on "Control Shape" unless you get afflicted with this in the middle of the campaign. Conceivably, you could play an afflicted entomanothrope right from character generation, but there's no mechanical reason to do so.

Feats No free Iron Will for entomanothropes. As a side note, they don't suffer from having Vermin HD here: You're allowed to take feats until you're at the proper amount.

CR Entomanthropes with more than 5 Vermin HD get +1 CR over lycanthropes.

LA There's no distinction between "natural" and "afflicted" here. Everything's +2 LA, just like an afflicted lycanthrope.

Alignment Here's the biggy: Entomanothropes don't lose themselves to their transformation. That's all covered by the Int penalty. You can be whatever alignment you want.

-----------

In short, entomanothropes gains quite a bit over lycanthropes: Most notably, they have no alignment restrictions, are immune to mind-affecting effects, and needn't bother with "Control Shape." In exchange, they sacrifice 2 Int, the Iron Will feat, and Scent.

[Admiral Squish]

Definitely a point in your favor.

Okay, a bunch of good points...

It would take some free hands, wouldn't it? Bloody hell...

I was thinking that if I were a web-spinner, he'd crawl along the ceilings and drop webs on unsuspecting meatshields, and the rest of the party'd come rushing in and stabbify. But now I realize how limited a use this is. And hunters get that +10 base speed...

They can still make webbing, too, so it's not like I'm missing the option to spin my own cloths.

If it blows up armor, wouldn't it blow up rings? Or move the fingers?

And it's +10 jump for hunters, not +8.

[Skjaldbakka]

Special Quality: Immunities Entomanothropes get immunity to mind-affecting in all forms.

That is soooo broken for +2LA. Especially since you get other stuff too.

[Admiral Squish]

Then you throw in the hit dice for your chosen vermin, too, so it's really anywhere from another one to four. Assuming medium size.

[Icewalker]

It isn't that weird...

How about a weretrex character! Rar!

[Talic]

Definitely a point in your favor.

Okay, a bunch of good points...

It would take some free hands, wouldn't it? Bloody hell...

I was thinking that if I were a web-spinner, he'd crawl along the ceilings and drop webs on unsuspecting meatshields, and the rest of the party'd come rushing in and stabbify. But now I realize how limited a use this is. And hunters get that +10 base speed...

They can still make webbing, too, so it's not like I'm missing the option to spin my own cloths.

If it blows up armor, wouldn't it blow up rings? Or move the fingers?

And it's +10 jump for hunters, not +8.

I'd say yes on rings. Also, since the apex of a jump elevates you to 1/2 the height of the jump, if you can get a 20 foot jump, you're 10 feet in the air, allowing for penetrating enemy lines and setting up flanks easily, or jumping OVER the meatshields to get at the back ranks... on a charge.

Sorry on the jump thing, don't have my books in front of me...

Also, note that jump distances are increased when you move faster than 40ft base. Splash barbarian for a 50 move (Read: Entry for Heavy Horse), and those phenomenal jumps will allow for major surprise attacks over meatshields, from up to 100' away... Not to mention 30-40 feet jumps... out of reach of a meatshield with a halberd, when your feet are 15-20 feet in the air, heh.

[Admiral Squish]

So these crazy bonuses start at 40? I'm hauling it at forty right now... I'm not sure about the barb level, yet. I'm pushing my limits on the ECL as it is. It's still a low-level campaign. Maybe once I'm not quite so pushing it. I'm not gonna give up my combat style for the extra ten feet. Maybe next level. I'd only get endurance, as it is, I can stand to put that off for a level.

[Talic]

So these crazy bonuses start at 40? I'm hauling it at forty right now... I'm not sure about the barb level, yet. I'm pushing my limits on the ECL as it is. It's still a low-level campaign. Maybe once I'm not quite so pushing it. I'm not gonna give up my combat style for the extra ten feet. Maybe next level. I'd only get endurance, as it is, I can stand to put that off for a level.

Keep in mind, the extra 10 feet also comes with rage for damage and hit, 20 feet of extra charge range, and a healthy increase in the jump. It's a good buy, but yes, it can afford to wait a level. In addition, you'll get +2 Fort, which is never a bad thing.

Oh, and that rage for +4 Str? Yeah, isn't Jump Str based? Tack on ANOTHER jump boost. This guy's getting past olympic levels... I think he'd be able to pole vault without the pole.

[Admiral Squish]

We're talking CRAZY-jumping. Fifty foot base land speed means I'm running as fast as a HORSE, then if I were to take the run feat, just imagine how much farter THAT would take me. I'm still not totally clear on how far that'd be, but I know it'd be crazy.

Hmm... +8 for speed. +10 for bonus. +5 for ranks. +2 for strength. I could automatically make a 25-foot jump, that means on a natural twenty I would be making 45 feet. This, I believe, is what I meant by CRAZY!

[UserClone]

Or you could just be an Aranea, using the monster pregression from Savage Species. I've done it before. Try it, It's fun.

[Admiral Squish]

Or you could just be an Aranea, using the monster pregression from Savage Species. I've done it before. Try it, It's fun.

I could, but I don't have savage species. And it does look like a very impressive investment.

[Talic]

We're talking CRAZY-jumping. Fifty foot base land speed means I'm running as fast as a HORSE, then if I were to take the run feat, just imagine how much farter THAT would take me. I'm still not totally clear on how far that'd be, but I know it'd be crazy.

Hmm... +8 for speed. +10 for bonus. +5 for ranks. +2 for strength. I could automatically make a 25-foot jump, that means on a natural twenty I would be making 45 feet. This, I believe, is what I meant by CRAZY!

The Run feat won't increase your jump distance, as the jump bonus is only based on your Base Movement, which run doesn't alter... It would, however, give you a 250 feet/round run speed... Which would mean running the length of 10 football fields in 72 seconds.

And while, yes, you'd make 26 feet on a roll of 1, Imagine adding a Ring of Jumping (+10), and adding 4 more ranks from levels...

40 feet jumps on a roll of 1. If you were a base race of Goliath, you'd always be treated as running for your jumps, which would make it truly freakish.

[Admiral Squish]

Truly, truly a ridiculous idea... Ridiculously AWESOME!

Actually, if you have the run feat it's another +4 if you have a running start.
Five ranks in tumble also gives you another +2 in jump.

Now THAT would be an impressive leaper.

[Skjaldbakka]

Run [General]
Benefit
When running, you move five times your normal speed (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or four times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load). If you make a jump after a running start (see the Jump skill description), you gain a +4 bonus on your Jump check. While running, you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC.

Emphasis mine.

I have done this before, btw. I played in an AE/D&D hybrid game, and multiclasses Wolf Totem Warrior (+10), Barbarian (+10), Scout (+15), and Ritual Warrior (times/day up to +30). Combined with boots of awesomeness (boots of haste + striding and springing + spiderclimb), I could pretty much just point anywhere on the map, and say "I move there".

I had Fleet of Foot from AE (+10), and Speed Burst (times per day additional move action).

[Talic]

Truly, truly a ridiculous idea... Ridiculously AWESOME!

Actually, if you have the run feat it's another +4 if you have a running start.
Five ranks in tumble also gives you another +2 in jump.

Now THAT would be an impressive leaper.

Interesting. Now, with 5 ranks in Jump, you can have:

+10 Racial, +2 Str, +5 Ranks, +8 Movement, +4 Run, +2 Jump....

On a roll of 1, you have...

Drum roll...

32 for your check, equaling a 30 foot jump at Class level 2, minimum. MINIMUM.

Oh my god, we just created a creature with a Jump speed.

I'm making a Goliath were-spider for my next character. Wow.

[Admiral Squish]

I wish you luck in your quest for the ultimate jumping creature.

[Armads]

Interesting. Now, with 5 ranks in Jump, you can have:

+10 Racial, +2 Str, +5 Ranks, +8 Movement, +4 Run, +2 Jump....

On a roll of 1, you have...

Drum roll...

32 for your check, equaling a 30 foot jump at Class level 2, minimum. MINIMUM.

Oh my god, we just created a creature with a Jump speed.

I'm making a Goliath were-spider for my next character. Wow.

Thri-kreen are better, though. +30 racial bonus to jump. Also, don't forget to get Boots of Striding and Springing. They give a +9 equivalent to jump, and 5 ranks in Tumble gives a +2 synergy bonus. Leap of the heavens (PHB2) adds a +5 to jump checks if you make a running start, while leaping dragon stance gives a +10 enhancement to jump distance (or somethinglike that) and treats you as always running for jumps.

[Skjaldbakka]

And don't forget to take Sudden Leap, to get that Jump as a swift action.

[UserClone]

I had a buddy who rocked a Thri-Kreen which routinely jumped 50' or more.

[Swooper]

...creatures like the Xeph and the Marilith for rules for multi-weapon fighting...

I believe you're thinking of Xills, Xephs are a very human-like race from the XPH.

[Chronos]

I'd say yes on rings. Also, since the apex of a jump elevates you to 1/2 the height of the jump, if you can get a 20 foot jump, you're 10 feet in the air, allowing for penetrating enemy lines and setting up flanks easily, or jumping OVER the meatshields to get at the back ranks... on a charge.

Not quite. The maximum height of a high jump is half the distance of a long jump. But at the apex of a long jump, your height is one quarter of the jump distance.

Which, amazingly enough, holds in our world as well as D&D. I think that's the only place where they bothered with physics at all in the 3.x rules.

[Dullyanna]

I never noticed that bit on immunities for Entomanothropes. Hell, it doesn't even make sense, since they don't have to assume the mindset of "vermin", as opposed to lycanthropes. I can sort of see them receiving a slight bonus to saves against charms and whatnot, but that's already covered by the +2 WIS bonus.