building a divine/arcane caster

[Vael Nir]

my newest character is going to start out as a second level cleric and eventually become a mystic theurge... since I've never actually played a cleric or a full caster before I'd like some tips on feat selection and such.

deity will be Boccob, domains trickery and magic (RP necessity).

thanks. :)

[BobTheDog]

Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Divine) x2

If you're planning to focus on your divine casting, get some divine metamagic feats. According to Comp. Divine latest Errata, that means you need the normal metamagic feats first.

[Mr. Friendly]

Well, as an aside, if such things are allowed a cool alternative is that PrC from Complete.. Arcane? For Warlock/Clerics he'd have to be CN though (to be one step from Boccob) I also dunno if Warlocks are in or not. I was just tossing it out as an alternate idea.

As for Theurging it up...

It depends on what your Save DCs are like. If they are kind of weak and you need a boost, Spell Focus and Gr. Spell Focus might be in order, just make sure that choose complementary spell selections on both casting sides. So, for example, if you plan on doing a lot of Mind Control type stuff, Enchantment Focus would be good if blasting stuff, Evocation Focus etc.

Something else you may want to take is feats to boost your Reflex save. I am generally loath to take them, but you may well seriously need it.

[Shishnarfne]

Alright, I had a long post, but the forum ate it...

I'll condense.

You're not a full cleric or wizard, so don't try to focus on the various win button/power strategies available to those classes.

I'd recommend that bumps to your save DCs is a good idea (your DCs will probably need the shot in the arm). Also, Practiced Spellcaster will probably save your hide regarding level-dependent effects. Your turning progression will be stunted, so a feat regarding that (e.g. Divine Metamagic) might help. Also, metamagic feats can be applied to both progressions. The Sudden Metamagics might be more beneficial as you don't bump it up to the higher level slots (which you don't really get as many of).

Try to use Wizard spells for things you can't get using the cleric list when possible.

Oh, and try not to step on other party members' toes, and try to have fun... A little patience can go a long way when you're level 7, the Druid is dropping Flamestrike, the Wizard is sending out Tentacles, and you're waiting until next level to be able to cast Dispel Magic. Remember that you have about 50% more spell slots than they do, so be sure to use them!

[CASTLEMIKE]

I'd use the Cloistered Cleric variant if you can and pick up another domain Knowledge along with 6 SP a level and D6 for HP.

[Gaiwecoor]

Well, as an aside, if such things are allowed a cool alternative is that PrC from Complete.. Arcane? For Warlock/Clerics he'd have to be CN though (to be one step from Boccob) I also dunno if Warlocks are in or not. I was just tossing it out as an alternate idea.
...

I think you're talking about Eldritch Disciple from Complete Mage (p. 53). Very nice class, if Warlock is available [Edit] One problem, though. The class requires a chaotic or evil deity. I guess it's not available for Boccob, then.[/Edit]

Also, when considering armor: Take a look at the Twilight ability from Magic Item Compendium. It's the equivalent to a +1 bonus, but reduces arcane spell failure by 10%. So... if you (eventually) get a +1 twilight mithral chain shirt, you suddenly have armor with no chance of spell failure. Not bad for a wizard/cleric combo, eh?

[Fuzzy_Juan]

hmm...gestalt would be fun with mystic theurge...start as a mage//cleric, then when you qualify, switch to mytic theurge//something...would be amusing to go warlock, and later on get eldritch disciple or eldritch theurge...

[Reinboom]

hmm...gestalt would be fun with mystic theurge...start as a mage//cleric, then when you qualify, switch to mytic theurge//something...would be amusing to go warlock, and later on get eldritch disciple or eldritch theurge...

Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.

Not a diehard rule, but there is a reason for this to be in the gestalt section...


==
On topic more:
I will also emphasize on picking your wizard (you are a wizard/cleric, right?) spells carefully to not overlap cleric. Cleric you can change to anything everyday. Wizard, you do have a limited selection, a large limited selection, but still limited.

[Gaiwecoor]

hmm...gestalt would be fun with mystic theurge...start as a mage//cleric, then when you qualify, switch to mytic theurge//something...would be amusing to go warlock, and later on get eldritch disciple or eldritch theurge...

Oh... Oh, my.

I hadn't thought of that before... over the course of twenty levels (effectively 40, with gestalt), you'd end up with Cleric 9/Wizard 8/Warlock 8/Mystic Theurge 5/Eldritch Disciple 5/Eldritch Theurge 5. Allowing you to cast arcane spells, divine spells and invocations as a level 18 caster (remember, Eldritch Disciple doesn't increase the divine caster level at level 1). And that's without any feats increasing caster level.

== Edit ==

Not a diehard rule, but there is a reason for this to be in the gestalt section...

... and I think this just proves the point.

[Frosty]

Screw Mystic theurge. Go with Arcane Hierophant. It's like the Thuerge...but with class abilities and features!

[Wordmiser]

Screw Mystic theurge. Go with Arcane Hierophant. It's like the Thuerge...but with class abilities and features!

He has a plan for his character concept; at least give suggestions along the Arcane-Focused Cleric or Divine-Focused Wizard lines.

...Which brings me to the obligatory warning that Mystic Theurge is a horrible class for any full spellcaster. Since you have the Magic domain, you could just use Wizard scrolls to maintain the same fluff as you would with MT while retaining armored casting, decent BA and high-level spells (the latter is the big one).

Or you could play a Wizard with the Arcane Disciple feat (CD) to keep full Wizard spellcasting with a few Divine spells on the side.

If you do need to go into MT, your role will probably be almost entirely support (to avoid saving throws and SR). Once you get to a high enough level, you'll get frequent use from Chain Spell (CArc), so nab that once it's available (maybe take it at ninth level to have it available once you hit 4th level spells, while leaving Quicken spell open for 12th).

You probably should also look at the Cloistered Cleric variant. since you aren't likely to be in melee with your Wizard/MT hit points and you probably won't be casting in medium or heavy armor, you really lose nothing from it.

Also, see if you can weasel into the class early through Illumian (RoD)... That's really the only way to make Mystic Theurge a viable class option.

[Talic]

Theurge upside over single class spellcasters: More spells.
Theurge downside: Max spell level is 2 lower than single class.

I'd like to echo the sentiments on Practiced Spellcaster x2, it'll at least keep your caster level on par, if not the spell level. Further, if you want to go SAD, you can go Favored Soul/Sorceror. Not the best route, but if you're stat limited, it's an option.

Another option is using your wiz spells for long term buffs, and using cleric for in battle spells. With Still Spell for the few wiz spells you'll want for battle, you'll be relatively unaffected by wearing armor.

Consider a followup Theurge-like class for level 16+, maybe True Necromancer or something. When you play a theurge, you're playing the long term game, as your powers come later than most. So plan ahead.

[Kaelik]

I'd like to echo the sentiments on Practiced Spellcaster x2, it'll at least keep your caster level on par, if not the spell level. Further, if you want to go SAD, you can go Favored Soul/Sorceror. Not the best route, but if you're stat limited, it's an option.

If you really want to go SAD, and not be incredibly sucky, go Archivist/Wizard.

[mneme]

Seconded on Archivist/Wizard. Being able to cast (and eventually learn) nearly every spell in the game doesn't suck. This will also mean your save DCs don't suck, plus Int is the best ability in the game.

If you can get away with it, take Wizard as your first class with the Precocious Apprentice feat to give you a single 2nd level spell and qualify for the wizard's side of Mystic Theurge. This will give you nearly full Archivist casting, which should help your survivability a lot. (at that point, you probably only need to take Practice Spellcaster once, to bump up your Wizard casting).

If you're thinking of all 20 levels, that takes you through 14th level (if your GM doesn't let you pull the Precocious Apprentice trick, it takes you through 16th level). I'd fill out with the Geomancer -- another arcane/divine hybrid class, though one that doesn't grant full spell progression in both classes, it's better than finishing up cleric (I'd still take the boost to cleric; since you get 9th level spells at 18th level instead of 20th that way), since it lets you blend arcane/divine attributes on spells (including arcane spell failure -- if you were to instead take Geomancer 10 and AT 6, by AT 6/Geomancer 5, you could start wearing armor again, since Geomancer lets you ignore spell failure chances in one spell level per level!) and gives you cool specials like Drift and Ley Lines. This would give you 19 levels of clerical casting and 7 of wizard casting -- or 17/9 if you thought 5th level wizard spells were better than more 9th level clerical spells, or 9/17 if you decided to (suboptimally) finish up wizard slower rather than cleric faster. Completing AT (probably better than completing Geomancer, though one could make arguments), you'd instead get 19/11 cleric/wizard, 17/13 for the balanced approach, or 13/17 for the wizard-oriented approach.

If you're sticking with cleric, try to get a staff when you can--the Magic domain lets you get some crazy caster levels on spells you cast from a staff--if you have Practiced Spellcaster x 2, you get your full CL * 1.5 on staff spells, adding half your clerical level to your wizard level for this purpose!

[Vael Nir]

I'm more into the character concept than exploiting loopholes in sourcebooks. Archivist/Wizard would be great, but just doesn't fit in to my concept... I'd prefer to stick to vanilla Cleric/Wizard. I'll definitely be taking practised spellcaster. The twilight armor tip is great, I'll definitely try to find one of those later on. I'll need to have a closer look at the metamagic effects before deciding much more.

Thanks for the help, I wasn't expecting so many posts at all!

[Fuzzy_Juan]

hmm...how would that build look like...assuming your DM was nice and high on that dime bag and said ok to your wacky plan...

1 Wiz//Cleric
2 Wiz//Cleric
3 Wiz//Cleric
4 Mystic Theurge//Warlock
5 Mystic Theurge//Warlock
6 Mystic Theurge//Warlock
7 Mystic Theurge//Warlock
8 Mystic Theurge//Warlock
9 Eldritch Disciple//Wiz
10 Eldritch Disciple//Wiz
11 Eldritch Disciple//Wiz
12 Eldritch Disciple//Wiz
13 Eldritch Disciple//Wiz
14 Eldritch Theurge//Cleric
15 Eldritch Theurge//Cleric
16 Eldritch Theurge//Cleric
17 Eldritch Theurge//Cleric
18 Eldritch Theurge//Cleric
19 Eldritch Theurge(Archmage maybe)//Cleric
20 Eldritch Theurge(Archmage maybe)//Cleric

I think this gives the equivalent spells of...20 wizard/19 cleric/ 17 warlock(maybe 15 if you take archmage)

If I was using UA though...I might try and eek one more slice of cheese out and instead of wizard...use battle sorcerer and pick up the armored mage feat (maybe). It would delay the progression slightly, but with it, you could wear light armor without worrying about spells...if you also picked up armored mage, then you could wear medium armor since warlock also allows for casting in light armor, it would then also allow for medium same as battle sorcerer...and to top it off, the main problem with battle sorcerer is that you lose some of the extra daily spells...heh..not much of a problem for this build...and charisma doubles as the main stat for your sorcerer and warlock levels. Just need to change every 'wiz' to 'sor', and then change 4th to Sor/Warlock...then start the progression...

You get Sor 20/Cleric 18/Warlock 18...not too shabby. And you get to cast freely wearing medium armor...what more can you ask for...I think I found my next build...now...to get my ST high enough to agree to this crap

[Kaelik]

I think this gives the equivalent spells of...20 wizard/19 cleric/ 17 warlock(maybe 15 if you take archmage)

Or if you are going to use BS Gestalt runs that already break the rules to get your casting:

Wizard//Cleric
Wizard//Cleric
Wizard//Cleric
Mystic Theurge//Wizard
Mystic Theurge//Wizard
Mystic Theurge//Wizard
Mystic Theurge//Wizard
Mystic Theurge//Wizard
Mystic Theurge//Wizard
Mystic Theurge//Wizard
Mystic Theurge//Wizard
Mystic Theurge//Wizard
Mystic Theurge//Wizard
Archmage//Cleric
Archmage//Cleric
Archmage//Cleric
Archmage//Cleric
Archmage//Cleric
Mindbender//Cleric
Divine Oracle//Cleric

For Wizard 30/Cleric 20.

But I'll provide some real builds for an Arcane/Divine in a minute.

[Grey Paladin]

Be sure to pick the Spell Domain and the "Anyspell" cleric spell series which was created specifically to be abused by clerics/wizards.

[Neftren]

I don't think the OP intended for gestalt. I would suggest finding a way to get your stats to all line up nicely. I would support the Archivist/Wizard though.

If all else fails, go to the standard Cheesiness that is Wizard/Incantrix/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil!

[herrhauptmann]

Might I suggest 'Spellcasting Prodigy' from Forgotten Realms handbook. Can be taken only at first level. What it does is raise your casting stat by 2 for purposes of spells/day, DC, and 1st level wizard starting spells. It can be taken multiple times, each time it applies to a different stat.

[Kaelik]

Okay, real builds.

Spoiler

Show

Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Archmage 4

Wizard 18 at CL 18
Ur-Priest 10 at CL 19
Archmage High Arcanas apply to both classes.

Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 1

Casting:
Wizard 17/Druid 17

Wildshape:
Druid 13

Companion:
Wizard 13/Druid 13

Now for Gestalt:

Spoiler

Show

Some things to play with:
Ur-Priest
Druids/Arcane Hierophant

So:
Wizard//Cleric
Wizard//Cleric
Wizard//Cleric
Mystic Theurge//Druid
Mystic Theurge//Druid
Mystic Theurge//Druid
Arcane Hierophant//Druid
Arcane Hierophant//Druid
Arcane Hierophant//Druid
Arcane Hierophant//Druid
Arcane Hierophant//Druid
Arcane Hierophant//Druid
Arcane Hierophant//Druid
Arcane Hierophant//Druid
Arcane Hierophant//Druid
Arcane Hierophant//Druid
Mystic Theurge//Druid
Mystic Theurge//Druid
Mystic Theurge//Druid
Mystic Theurge//Druid

Casting:
Wizard 20/Cleric 20/Druid 17

Wildshaping:
Druid 27

Companion:
Wizard 13/Druid 27

Or trade out the three levels of Cleric for 3 of Druid and the first level of Druid for Cleric giving:

Casting:
Wizard 20/Druid 20/Cleric 17

Wildshaping:
Druid 29

Companion:
Wizard 13/Druid 29

Gestalt Ur-Priest builds coming sometime tomorrow.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

the idea of using gestalt to get into epic spellcasting before 20 is just kinda wrong...makes me feel all dirty inside.

[Toliudar]

To the best of my knowledge, there is no way to get into Epic Spellcasting before level 21.

[Kaelik]

To the best of my knowledge, there is no way to get into Epic Spellcasting before level 21.

Well of course, it only works if you play gestalt and break the rule about not using double progression PrCs.

[Douglas]

Not even gestalt with double progression classes allowed can do it. Epic Spellcasting requires 24 ranks in two skills, which cannot be achieved by any means before level 21 whether you're gestalt or not.

[tyckspoon]

Well of course, it only works if you play gestalt and break the rule about not using double progression PrCs.

No, it just doesn't work. Epic feats require you to be at least character level 21 to take, and Epic Spellcasting itself requires at least 24 ranks in an appropriate Knowledge skill. Gestalt doesn't make your actual character level go up any faster.

[RTGoodman]

I don't really have anything new, but a lot of the (serious) suggestions above are good. Practiced Spellcaster (x2) is good for the build if you need to up CL, and taking Spell Focus might actually be worth it if you need to up DCs for spells of schools that you use for both arcane and divine classes.

Also, since no one put the link up, here's the WotC excerpt from Heroes of Horror that has the Archivist in it. It's probably the best way to go for Mystic Theurge if your DM will allow it.

[Kaelik]

No, it just doesn't work. Epic feats require you to be at least character level 21 to take, and Epic Spellcasting itself requires at least 24 ranks in an appropriate Knowledge skill. Gestalt doesn't make your actual character level go up any faster.

Okay. Whatever. I wasn't really asserting entry into epic spellcasting, that was Fuzzy. I don't know what any of the epic rules are because it's all so retarded. I didn't claim there was epic spellcasting involved.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

True...actual 'epic' by game terms requires lvl 21 or more...I was just meaning caster level above 20. When I thought of Gestalt, I always thought that you took the best feature of each class an that if they duplicated a feature, you only got one..not both. That way, I thought that if you gained a level in say, wizard, and also gained a level in something like elemental savant that gave +1 to existing arcane caster level...that you would just gain a single caster level...not two. (or if you were wiz/sor that by taking a level in wiz/elemental savant that you could bumb your sor with the PrC, but not double up on a single class.)

Then I reread the gestalt and saw that it said 'gain all class features'...and the spellcasting ability is a class feature...so, I guess by RAW it would stack...which is pretty gross.

Yeah, MT, ET, EK and other dual class PrC are frowned upon with gestalt...but it is up to the DM to yeah or nay...

Aside from that goofyness...I am not sure of any other cleric/wizard combos other than the good ol mystic theurge. It is doubtful if getting the 2nd level spell at 1st level through that feat will allow you to qualify for the wizard half of the PrC, but if your ST allows it, bonus...As they mentioned, cloistered cleric might be a good idea if you think that you will use wizard since the martial training won't do you too much good without being able to wear armor like a cleric. Battle sorcerer still might be an option for you though...If your DM allows it. Human battle sorcerer, precocious apprentice/Battle caster(cast spells in medium armor), then 3 levels of cleric, start taking mystic theurge at 5th level...by 14 you'll be at 11 Sor/13 Cler...with the option to have practiced caster to bump up your CL...what to do with the next 6 levels though...Mithril Full plate is your friend.