D.A.D. Caster (Need help and ideas).

[StickMan]

I've been thinking for some time that spell casters should be dependent on more than one mental score. I've always seen casters as having to have some good mix of all the mental scores. This has been reflected to me in many of the books I've read. Casters are rarely just smart, wise or charismatic they are usually a little of each. As is a caster only needs to pump one ability score an then the others are well basically just flavor. I would like to create a caster dependent on all 3, but not totally inept if missing high scores in one. My ideas so far are.

This is the rest of the original post

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Intelligence: Basis of the number of spells known at each level and how many different spells can be memorized per day. (Number of spells memorized per day will not the same thing as the number of spells per day.) I think the number of spells you could memorize per day would be 1+Intelligence modifier
for each spell level. This caster will likely have a spell book like a wizards.

Wisdom: Increases the DC of spells.

Charisma: Gives extra spells per day. This would no be using the standard extra spells per day table as it should grant more spells than that in my opinion. Casters with extremely high would have more spells than a standard sorcerer.

Base number of spells per day would equal to a non specialist wizard. At the start of each day the caster would memorize a number of spells based on his intelligence and then cast those spells any number of times until he expended his spell slots.

You should be able to figure that different caster types would be do able. Blaster for instance would pump Charisma for the number of spells and Wisdom for high DC but perhaps put little in Intelligence as they plan to use the same spell over and over.

This is the basic idea I'm going to be balancing the class around a 32 point buy game or at least try to, I know the class would be much stronger or weaker with a different number of points, but every class is this one may just be more so.

I would like to get a little more feed back on the idea before I start making the class it self so I don't need to do a massive rewrite because I over looked something.

Thanks for reading and posting,
Stickman
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This is the work very much still in progress M.A.D Caster, A.K.A. the Mage for now. I suggest anyone new to the tread try to read the most recent post to see what is still a work in progress.
The Mage:
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d6.
Class Skills
The mage’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at 1st Level

(2 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level

2 + Int modifier.

Mage
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|

+0

|

+0

|

+0

|

+2

|Caster Skill|3|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

2nd|

+1

|

+0

|

+0

|

+3

||4|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

3rd|

+1

|

+1

|

+1

|

+3

||4|2|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

4th|

+2

|

+1

|

+1

|

+4

|Caster Skill|4|3|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

5th|

+2

|

+1

|

+1

|

+4

|Bonus feat|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—|—|—

6th|

+3

|

+2

|

+2

|

+5

||4|3|3|2|—|—|—|—|—|—

7th|

+3

|

+2

|

+2

|

+5

||4|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—|—

8th|

+4

|

+2

|

+2

|

+6

|Caster Skill|4|4|3|3|2|—|—|—|—|—

9th|

+4

|

+3

|

+3

|

+6

||4|4|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—

10th|

+5

|

+3

|

+3

|

+7

|Bonus feat|4|4|4|3|3|2|—|—|—|—

11th|

+5

|

+3

|

+3

|

+7

||4|4|4|4|3|2|1|—|—|—

12th|

+6/+1

|

+4

|

+4

|

+8

|Caster Skill|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|—|—|—

13th|

+6/+1

|

+4

|

+4

|

+8

||4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|—|—

14th|

+7/+2

|

+4

|

+4

|

+9

||4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|—|—

15th|

+7/+2

|

+5

|

+5

|

+9

|Bonus feat|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1|—

16th|

+8/+3

|

+5

|

+5

|

+10

|Caster Skill|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2|—

17th|

+8/+3

|

+5

|

+5

|

+10

||4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

18th|

+9/+4

|

+6

|

+6

|

+11

||4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

19th|

+9/+4

|

+6

|

+6

|

+11

||4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3

20th|

+10/+5

|

+6

|

+6

|

+12

|Bonus feat, Caster Skill|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4

[/table]

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the mage:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Mage's are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a mage’s gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

Spells
A Mage casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A mage must memorize a number of spells each day but can otherwise cast any memorized spell spontaneously (see below).

To learn, prepare or cast a spell, the mage must have a Wisdom, Intelligence or Charisma score equal to at least 10+ the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a mage’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the mage’s wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a mage can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score.

A mage begins play with knowledge of a number of 0-level spells equal to 2+ her twice her intelligence modifier plus a number of first level spells equal to 1+ her Intelligence modifier. At every level after first the mage learns a number of spells equal to 1+ ½ her Intelligence modifier.

A mage may add spells to her spells known whenever she encounters one on a scroll or in a spellbook. No matter the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing. Next she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15+ spell’s level). If the check succeeds, the mage understands the spell and may add it to her spells known. The process consumes the magic of a scroll used to do this. This cost the mage a number of XP equal to 30 x spells level x the spells minimum caster level.

At the beginning of each a mage selects a number of spells from his spells known from each spell level equal to 1+ his intelligence modifier, except for spells of his highest spell level known he only can select a number of spells equal to 1+ 1/2 his intelligence modifier rounded down. He has the selected spells memorized for the day and may cast these spells any number of times until he runs out of spell slots of the appropriate level.

Casters Skill: At first level you select two abilities from the following list and one more at level 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20:

Battle knowledge(Ex): You add your Intelligence modifier to AC as a competence bonus.

Armor Understanding(Ex): You ignore 5% arcane spell failure for every point of your wisdom modifier.

Caster's AIM (Su): You add your Wisdom modifier as a competence bonus to ranged attack rolls of spells. Special: This does not require any action, as supernatural abilities usually do, but it is still affected by an anti-magic field.

Caster's Strike (Su): You add your Wisdom modifier as a competence bonus to melee attack rolls of spells. Special: This does not require any action, as supernatural abilities usually do, but it is still affected by an anti-magic field.

Metamagic Mastery (Ex): A number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier, you can apply metamagic feats that you know to your mage spells with out increasing the casting time.

Familiar: You gain a familiar as per the rules in the players handbook.

Mana shielding (Su): A number of times per day equal to her mage level, a mage may expend a spell as a Immediate Action and gain a bonus equal to that spells level to your saving throws. This bonus lasts a number of rounds equal to 1+ Cha modifier.

Bonus Feats
At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a mage gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or a reserve feat. The mage must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.
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Special thanks to HellFencer who took the time fixed a number of my errors and has given many good suggestions.

see below for information as to what I'm working on.

[boomwolf]

This will help in hammering spellcaster's brokenness if they actually needed to invest in all 3 mental scores.

But I say lower it to 2. all 3 is too much.

[GimliFett]

Interesting concept. I like the interaction of the three stats.

One problem I see:
*Needing decent to good (or better) stats in all three Mentals would reduce options for Physical stats. Meaning: worse AC, fewer HPs, and less likelyhood of hitting with melee-touch spells (and ranged-touch, for that matter, given reduced Dex). You'd need to compensate somehow, I think to keep them from being owned by housecats and stirges.

More as I think of it...

[HellFencer]

This sounds like a great idea, as I'm myself looking to homebrew casters into a single class at some point. GimliFett has a good point. I'd say Intelligence determines how many spells you can prepare for the day, as well as what your stat needs to be in order to cast the spells. Charisma would then determine the DC and extra spells per day. Wisdom I've never liked as a spellcasting stat (or even a regular stat), as it is supposed to be common sense, not force of will. I'd rather it be Perception or Willpower, but that is a discussion for a different thread.

In the homebrew version I'm doing, I'm going to try out recharge magic, except with longer wait times. Its cheesy that I got the idea from WoW, but spell cooldown time prevents overuse of uber spells, as well as giving the spellcaster a reason for having less powerful spells (so he can cast them while his big ones are recharging).

[ZeroNumerous]

The idea is sound, but hard to implement. As others have said, it should be D.A.D casting.

Further: Might I suggest using a spell point system instead of vancian if you really want Wisdom as a casting stat?

[StickMan]

Holy crud I got quick feedback, that never happens to me.

OK here is my logic as to the 3 stats and there uses and also I was thinking about things as I was out shopping.

Intelligence is required to have actual knowledge of spells and that is why it determines how many spells you know and remember per day.
Wisdom is required because it represents actual understanding of the spells on a more innate level.
Charisma is force of personality the thing that actually generates you spells per-day.

Now as for issues of lack of physical scores.
I'm going to give the class a d6 hit die to help with hp.

Also I'm thinking about adding a ability to the class called:
Casters Skill (ex): At first level you select two abilities from the following list and one more at level 5, 10, 15 and 20:

Battle knowledge: You add your Int modifier to defense.

Armor Understanding: You ignore 5% arcane spell failure for ever point of your wisdom bonus.

Casters AIM: You add your charisma bonus to ranged attack rolls of spells.

Casters Strike: You add your charisma bonus to melee attack rolls of spells.

I clearly need more abilities here but you get the idea, and like I said this is just what I came up with while shopping.


Also I am thinking about reducing it to just being reliant on Int and Cha but I would like more feed back first if possible.


Thanks a million,
Stickman.

Edit: ZeroNumerous: I'm don't think I'll go the spell point way but may I ask why you would tie Wisdom to that system?

[GimliFett]

I like the idea behind the Caster's Skill abilities. Nice touches. That, combined with the d6 HD helps. You might also consider an ability that improves Reflex and/or Fort Saves, since they'll be lacking in both departments.

[Yami]

If you really want to make a MAD caster, just grab a level of sorcerer and go U-magus.

[Baron Corm]

I very much agree with keeping it at all 3 ability scores. One of them is the most important (DCs, to me, so Wisdom) and the rest simply give you something extra, which don't cripple you even if you have them at 10 (though I'm not quite sure how you're making Intelligence work, that might need to be tweaked - I can cast 3 cantrips per day as a level 20 wizard with 16 Int?).

This is identical to the way it is for other classes. They focus on Strength or Dexterity mostly, but can be helped out by the other ability scores depending on their class.

Though I'm not sure this balances casters at all (taking out certain broken spells is probably more helpful), I think it is a good idea. Wizards in books always have all 3 ability scores high, like you said.

[Terror_Incognito]

When I read the title of this post I was imagining a caster that dealt massive damage to enemies but received damage to cast (Mutually Assured Destruction not Multiple Ability Dependence).

A very good Idea none the less.

[StickMan]

OK well I just posted the very first version of the class that is still massively in the rough, its in the first post in spoilers. I need people to look over my wording as I'm sure its confusing I've never been very good at legal text, with a specific focus in the spellcasting area.

Its missing how charisma gives it bonus spells, I can't figure out how I want to do it so I'll take any ideas.

Also I clearly need more caster skills. I'll think up more tomorrow if I have time but I'll also take suggestions.

I'm sure I missed something, or it could use some tweaks that are obvious but I'm tired so sorry for any stupid mistakes.

Thanks,
Stickman.

[TheGrimace]

there is an inconsistency between the chart and the text as far as how often you get your caster skills.
on a similar topic, you need more caster skills (I understand it's a work in progress), and I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with the power level of those caster skills.

This originally looked like a caster nerf, it no longer feels like it after reading those.
Int to Def, and can wear armor.

[ZeroNumerous]

Edit: ZeroNumerous: I'm don't think I'll go the spell point way but may I ask why you would tie Wisdom to that system?

Because Wisdom(through Will Saves) represents mental strength and fortitude. A spell point system would be tied to your mental reserves, which is Wisdom.

[StickMan]

there is an inconsistency between the chart and the text as far as how often you get your caster skills.
on a similar topic, you need more caster skills (I understand it's a work in progress), and I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with the power level of those caster skills.

Fixed the text to match the chart and added 3 more caster skills. OK well one is the ability to gain a familiar with real is not a skill per say...

This originally looked like a caster nerf, it no longer feels like it after reading those.
Int to Def, and can wear armor.

Define "nerf" I'm not trying to destroy the caster I'm just trying to bring him down a little while still keeping the class fun to play. Also the class is about making the caster need to use more than one ability and I believe some one playing the class with still have issues even if the focus only on mental abilities. Most of the caster skills only make up for minor amounts of the mages weaknesses they never make up for the whole thing. Battle knowledge for instance does not make up for low dexterity as dexterity also boosts ranged attacks and reflex saves. Also casters always have armor from mage armor or Mithral Twilight Chain shirt, or something else. I don't see any issue with allowing them to gain the ability to over come spell failure they are not even proficient with armor.


OK as said above I add 3 new caster skills, I may need a new name for the class feature as having a familiar is not really a skill. I also changed casters AIM and Strike to use Wisdom instead of charisma because it seems to me Wisdom is finite control of magic what helps you hit, charisma is more like raw control of magic forcing it to do what you want.

I was thinking that extra spells from high charisma could be done such as you gain extra spells equal to your charisma modifier up to a maximum of 4 extra bonus spells per day per spell level. You gain two fewer bonus spells per day from charisma from your highest level spell slots and one fewer bonus spell from your second highest level of spells known minimum zero.
So a 5 level mages spells would look like this:
0 level spells: 4+ (Cha)
1st level spells: 3+ (Cha)
2nd level spells: 2+ (Cha-1)
3rd level spells: 1+ (Cha -2)

This however is just my current idea and clearly needs better wording.

Edit: I fixed the lack of Zero level spells.

[HellFencer]

A few things to point out:

Battle knowledge(Ex): You add your Intelligence modifier to AC as a competence bonus..

Armor Understanding(Ex): You ignore 5% arcane spell failure for every point of your wisdom modifier.

Caster's AIM (Su): You add your Wisdom modifier as a competence bonus to ranged attack rolls of spells. Special: This does not require any action, as supernatural abilities usually do, but it is still affected by an anti-magic field.

Caster's Strike (Su): You add your Wisdom modifier as a competence bonus to melee attack rolls of spells. Special: This does not require any action, as supernatural abilities usually do, but it is still affected by an anti-magic field.

Metamagic Mastery (Ex): A number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier, you can apply metamagic feats that you know to your mage spells with out increasing the casting time.
-Do you mean without increasing the spell's level?

Mana shielding (Su): A number of times per day equal to her mage level, a mage may expend a spell as a Immediate Action and gain a bonus equal to that spells level. This bonus lasts a number of rounds equal to 1+ Cha modifier.
-You gain a bonus to what exactly?

------------------
Suggestions for more

Caster's Touch (Su): You may add your wisdom bonus to melee touch attacks for spells. Special: This does not require any action, as supernatural abilities usually do, but it is still affected by an anti-magic field.
Prereq: Caster's Strike

Combat familiar: As per the feat.

Improved familiar: As per the feat.

[StickMan]

Suggestions for more

Caster's Touch (Su): You may add your wisdom bonus to melee touch attacks for spells. Special: This does not require any action, as supernatural abilities usually do, but it is still affected by an anti-magic field.
Prereq: Caster's Strike

Thanks for doing all that for me Fencer that was a major help, I really appreciated it. I'm giving you special mention in the initial post.

To answer your questions:
Metamagic Mastery: The mage is a spontaneous caster so applying metamagic feats to spells makes casting any spell a full round action.
Mana shielding: Oops my bad its a bonus to saving throws. Its a costly way to protect your self.

Casters Touch does not change anything as Caster's Strike applies to melee touch attacks. At least my understanding is that anything that applies to a regular melee attack also applies to touch attack, I've been wrong before however.

I'll think about the familiar feats not sure if I like them for this, may put them in however.

I'm thinking I need some first level only Skills that would be like Wizard, Sorcerer and may be Witch. Each one could have a small chain with it giving slightly more powerful than normal mage skills. I however have no clue what these would do at this point, other than the Wizard option giving a spell book. So shoot some ideas at me if you have any.

Each one may be more tied to any ability that the others Wizard (Int), Witch (Wis), Sorcerer (Cha). Still just an idea how ever.

If anyone wanted to roll Cleric into this as well I believe I could make a similar chain of skills. I know a few people have expressed interest in that idea as well but I don't plan to explore that option until I work this out as a Wiz/Sor combo.

Thanks as always,
Stickman.

[Ne0]

Looks nice. Just a small remark: I don't think Knowledge(Nobility and royalty;History;Religion) should be class skills for the typical magic-user. I'm also not too sure about Nature and Local.
And what's the use of the 'Armpr Understanding' skill if the mage isn't proficient with at least simple armor? I doubt a caster would ever spend a feat on Armour proficiency...

[HellFencer]

Thanks for doing all that for me Fencer that was a major help, I really appreciated it. I'm giving you special mention in the initial post.

Hey, no problem. I love doing this kind of stuff.

Mana shielding should be usable a number of times per day equal to Charisma modifier, to limit abuse. You might also add the option to make it last as long as a concentration check is pass each round. However, this means no strenuous actions during that time (like casting another spell).

I suggested Caster's Touch, because I thought there were some spells that required a melee attack that wasn't touch.

[StickMan]

Looks nice. Just a small remark: I don't think Knowledge(Nobility and royalty;History;Religion) should be class skills for the typical magic-user. I'm also not too sure about Nature and Local.
And what's the use of the 'Armpr Understanding' skill if the mage isn't proficient with at least simple armor? I doubt a caster would ever spend a feat on Armour proficiency...

I could not disagree with you more about the Knowledge skills, mages should be the most well educated of all the classes. Knowledge (nobility and royalty), spell caster are often found in the courts of royalty and as a royal adviser you would have to have some knowledge of other people in power. Knowledge (History) once again helps fill the traditional role of an adviser and if the caster does not have it then what class will. Religion I can some what see your point but the skill is useful and once more is good for advising on state matters in many times and periods. Nature, in many of the books I've read of early stories, magic users are often casters living in the woods as hermits living off the land. Heck when talking about merlin the term wizard and druid are interchangeable (this is of course a whole other discussion). I'll give you local but then I've never even under stood how Knowledge local is a skill.

You don't need the feat to gain use with out penalty of padded armor, leather armor, master work studded leather, master work light shields and masterwork bucklers. The only thing that normally stops casters from wearing these things is spell failure.

[StickMan]

OK well I have a few idea for some new Caster Skills, but they are still rough ideas I'm still developing.

Wizard:
As a wizard you have likely studded magic at a formal school of magic. After years of studying from books to learn your trade, you no longer need to read tome of magic to cast your spells, however if you do carry specially made books of magic spells called Spellbooks you may use them as a focus to boost the power of your spells.
Prerequisites: First level, Int 15.
Benefit: While holding a specially made spell book open and to the page on which the corresponding spell is written you cast that spell at +1 Caster level. Changing pages in a spell book is a free action as long as the mage has two free hands or a move action if she only has one free hand.

Notes: I'm not sure as to what the cost, or size of the spellbook would be yet but they would be smaller in both page count and physical size than standard spell books. Also keeping such magic spell books would be quite costly.

Acolyte:
You have a connection to a grand idea or philosophy because of this connection you have gained powers other Mages do not hold.
Prerequisites: First level, Wis 15.
Benefit: Select one Cleric domain, you gain that domains granted power as well you may select spells from that domains spell list to become spells known for you. Any spell you learn threw this method is still cast as an arcane spell.

Sorcerer:
You've had your abilities with magic scene the time you were young and have learned you can some times force magic to do what you want it to do.
Prerequisites: First level, Cha 15.
Benefit: A number of times per day equal to 3+ 1 for every point of charisma bonus you can apply the effects of the Enlarge, Extend, Silent, Still, or Widen spell Metamagic feats to a spell with out increasing the spells caster level.

All of these abilities still seem shaky to me and as said are still rough ideas.

[magic_unlocked]

Instead of applying an unknown meta feat, why not just let the "sorcerer" cast known meta feats for free? Or, roll 1d4 and gain that number as a bonus to DC and caster level at the cost of taking that much damage as lethal and non-lethal damage?

[StickMan]

Well after running it through my head a few times I've decided people are right I need to make the class Dual ability dependent and not all three, well partially. Spreading spell casting out over all stats is to much, so I'll be taking Wisdom out as a spell casting stat. However I plan to keep it as being in charge of a number of the class abilities. So the class will have a reliance on only two abilities for spell casting but a number of class abilities will make Wisdom useful as well.

[magic_unlocked]

Cools. I like the way this class is shaping up. =o!! I think you should use wisdom for the divine casters for either spells per day or DCs, to keep the whole wisdom thing going on. Hmm. I think that's all i got at the moment.