Precise shot

[Akisa]

Why do you need point blank as prerequisite all precise shot really does is ensures allows you to contribute to the fight past the first round when everyone enters melee.

[Balkash]

I assume because you would need to be able to shoot at the enemy with increased accuracy to ensure that you hit only your intended target, so point blank shot would give you that bonus. Maybe just fluff.

[cupkeyk]

Akisa phrases it like what the character wants to do while Balkash tries to rationalizes it with some psuedo physics/realism.

Precise Shot requires you to shoot accurately, avoiding allies, which you have achieved through practice of Point Blank Shot.

[Kizara]

Because feat pre-reqs are never based on what you would personally like and what makes your character concept more effective in your metagame.

They are based on balance and/or game logic.

[Akisa]

Because feat pre-reqs are never based on what you would personally like and what makes your character concept more effective in your metagame.

They are based on balance and/or game logic.

So in other words to play an Elven Ranger going down the archer path requires me to wait until level 3 so I can contribute to the fight after the first round for game balance or game logic?

[cupkeyk]

The elven ranger is a skirmisher with guerrilla tactics, if your party is encountering melee that you are not doing your job. The elven archer should scout ahead, shoot down mooks, report badguys he can't one shot back to the party so that they can prepare for it. That -4 isn't huge with PBS and an elf's +2 to dex and a ranger's full bab, and if you are running FR, you probably begin with a masterwork longbow. Evens out to zero at level 1, so you have the rest of your dex to hit opponents with. Not bad at all at level 1, and that is only when you are shooting into melee. You just become MORE effective at level 3 when you get precise shot.

[Kaelik]

So in other words to play an Elven Ranger going down the archer path requires me to wait until level 3 so I can contribute to the fight after the first round for game balance or game logic?

Or you could use flaws, or you could just eat the -4 penalty on some of your shots because it's not that bad. (Sure it's bad at level one, but at level one you're going to miss half the time anyway since the Die makes up 90% of your total.)

[Thinker]

I usually house-rule it the other way. Anything that has Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite gets changed to Precise Shot and PBS gains Precise Shot as a prereq. I'm not really sure why it is that way in the rules, but this is my house-rule.

[Deepblue706]

If you could easily attain Precise Shot at level 1, things would be ridiculous. Everyone who WASN'T the primary melee warrior could greatly support him from a safe distance, dealing at what the time is very significant damage, despite any lacking in strength or combat prowess. Dealing d4 damage from a sling could send a fight in either direction when the majority of your party - as well as most foes - will likely have less than 10 hp each.

Yeah, you don't ever want to be useless in a game based around teamwork, but when everyone contributes too much in one way, it affects the game. To counter an easy grabbing of Precise Shot, monsters would require more HP or AC to be anywhere near a challenge to intelligent players - and making monsters beefier only ruins the point in the game that martial characters are most useful, because now they won't even be able reliably protect their spellcasting friends in their time of weakness.

[Deepblue706]

I usually house-rule it the other way. Anything that has Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite gets changed to Precise Shot and PBS gains Precise Shot as a prereq. I'm not really sure why it is that way in the rules, but this is my house-rule.

While I don't think your approach is too far-fetched, I think the established rules make more sense - firing a bow or crossbow can be difficult, unless you have a steady aim. I think PBS grants you that, and the Precise Shot ability allows you to shoot through narrower spaces, something that is a bit more complicated. Precise Shot is a fairly high cinematic ability - I do not think it should be easier to obtain.

[Thinker]

While I don't think your approach is too far-fetched, I think the established rules make more sense - firing a bow or crossbow can be difficult, unless you have a steady aim. I think PBS grants you that, and the Precise Shot ability allows you to shoot through narrower spaces, something that is a bit more complicated. Precise Shot is a fairly high cinematic ability - I do not think it should be easier to obtain.

Yes, well when in Rome.

[cupkeyk]

As such they are called house rules.

[Alcino]

Now, don't forget your allies give enemies cover. So the penalty is much bigger than -4!

Against Large creatures, a single ally might only give +1 cover and two allies +2... any bigger and there's no cover, realistically. Unless your ally's standing in a doorway that's the only window you can shoot through.

A goblin, though, could get the full +4 cover depending on the angle of the shot. Just maneuver until the tank is no longer giving cover and you're fine if you took Precise Shot.

Suddenly, Improved Precise Shot is really worth it.

Point Blank Shot is a good feat. +1 to attack and damage, stacks with everything. Those are bonuses other attack styles just can't get.

[cupkeyk]

Now, don't forget your allies give enemies cover. So the penalty is much bigger than -4!

Against Large creatures, a single ally might only give +1 cover and two allies +2... any bigger and there's no cover, realistically. Unless your ally's standing in a doorway that's the only window you can shoot through.

A goblin, though, could get the full +4 cover depending on the angle of the shot. Just maneuver until the tank is no longer giving cover and you're fine if you took Precise Shot.

Suddenly, Improved Precise Shot is really worth it.

Point Blank Shot is a good feat. +1 to attack and damage, stacks with everything. Those are bonuses other attack styles just can't get.

since you still don't need to make a full attack, use your move action to maneuver around the guys providing cover, Viola!

[nbnmare]

I've been tinkering with a few homebrewed ranged combat feats (which include turning ranged combat class features from various prestige classes, like the Cragtop Archer and Order of the Bow Initiate, into feats), and one of those I've come up with is an attempt to solve just this problem: i.e. Point Blank Shot really doesn't make sense as a prerequisite for several of that feats that require it, but Precise Shot is too powerful to be easily obtainable at 1st level.


TARGETTED SHOT [GENERAL]

You can make highly accurate ranged attacks.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you may make a single ranged attack or ranged touch attack, gaining a +4 bonus on your attack roll. When making a targetted shot, you must be within 30 feet of your target.

Special: The benefit of this feat does not apply to spells which take longer than one standard action to cast.


Pretty much all the official ranged feats that would require Point Blank Shot, now require you to take Targetted Shot instead (Point Blank Shot itself also has Targetted Shot as a requirement).

I've also got a similar new feat, Called Shot, which grants a bonus on damage rolls rather than attack rolls (this only applies to ranged attacks, not to ranged touch attacks).

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (probably on one of those D&D web articles) that the feat prereq for Precise Shot was entirely for game balance, because otherwise Precise Shot would be too good. I mean, even with the prereq it is already so good that almost every archer would take it.