Reflex save and grappling (burnin' em while they're down)

[Feralgeist]

would someone get a reflex save if they were entangled or grappled? i was thinking of a dragonfire adept i could make who grappled people and breathes fire in their face, and i noticed there's nothing in the rules about it. What do you guys think??

[Fenix_of_Doom]

would someone get a reflex save if they were entangled or grappled? i was thinking of a dragonfire adept i could make who grappled people and breathes fire in their face, and i noticed there's nothing in the rules about it. What do you guys think??

The grappling rules nowhere state that you get any penalties to reflex safe, even the no dex part specifically only mentions AC, so I guess grappled characters get to make reflex saves as normal

What kind of action is firebreathing, can it even be done in a grapple?

[Feralgeist]

standard, so yes. (su) dont need to move or anything, all you have to do is open your mouth

[Keld Denar]

A grappled character can make a reflex save, and it is even at no penalty, since it states that they only lose dex to AC. Probably something to do with using the other grappler for some kind of cover. I dunno, one of the many rules that make little sense.

As far as using a breath weapon in a grapple, you can, but probably only by succeeding in an opposed grapple check. While not explicitely stated in the rules, precident makes this seem reasonable. All of the other actions (draw a weapon, attack with opponents weapon, retrieve spell components, etc require opposed grapple checks. It takes concentration and force of will to use a breath weapon (hence why its a standard action, and not simply opening your mouth). You also have to position yourself in such a way that the breath weapon will even affect the target. This sounds to me like winning an opposed grapple check would allow you to do all of that, although failing the check would not expend the breath attempt (if limited).

Again, not exactly RAW, but from precident.

EDIT: Your opponent could make a grapple attempt on their turn to pin you (your mouth) so you could not use the breath weapon. This is allowed and expressed in the rules as a method of shutting up spellcasters trying to cast spells with verbal components in a grapple.

EDIT2: A rogue would lose his evasion class ability while in a grapple, since it explicitely states that a rogue loses this ability when he is denyed his dex bonus to AC. He would still get a save for 1/2 at no notable penalty, just like everyone else.

[Treguard]

Conversely, when an opponent is pinned in a grapple they are held immobile, unable to move unless they manage to break free from the pin. I would rule that if the pin was maintained (ie, the opponent failed the escape artist/opposed grapple check on their turn) then the breath weapon could be used without save.

[Keld Denar]

Conversely, when an opponent is pinned in a grapple they are held immobile, unable to move unless they manage to break free from the pin. I would rule that if the pin was maintained (ie, the opponent failed the escape artist/opposed grapple check on their turn) then the breath weapon could be used without save.

Per RAW, everyone gets a reflex save. A SLEEPING person gets a reflex save. A Held person gets a reflex save. A pinned person gets a reflex save. Granted, for all of these people, they are treated as having a dex of 0, but they are still allowed to make the save.

To take away somethings reflex save is unfair. If your players do it, then monsters should be able to do it back. That is very unfair to the players. To integrate this rule will spell the death of more characters than will gain in kills for the players.

[KillianHawkeye]

You can never take away someone's Reflex save for the same reasons you can't take their Fortitude or Will. There's just no way it would ever be fair or balanced.

[Treguard]

Okay okay, no need to throw the book at me.. But you are right, that sometimes we have to throw a certain degree of common sense out of the window in order to rein in some of the rules; something fundamental like a saving throw clearly stated in an attack's description shouldn't be just removed.

Is it honestly that unfair though? One would not only have to successfully grapple their opponent, but pin them and make sure that they stay pinned for at least one round. That's a lot of checks to ensure a point-blank breath attack, not even considering any intervention for the two whole rounds it would take to achieve this; if a monster were to do this to a hapless adventurer you could certainly imagine a shift in prorities amongst the party involved to ensure the safety of their comrade.

Without any sort of benefit gained from grappling in order to breathe on the victim better than it would simply be deemed unnecessary, the OP's build idea wouldn't work. That just smacks of something, I dunno what though..

Personally, if something like a dragon has you pinned under a claw and is aiming it's maw at you, gearing up for a killer blast then it should indeed, suck for the victim.

[SadisticFishing]

There's no need to use an opposed grapple to use SU abilities in it.

Other than that, most of the information is good, Reflex saves are always there, they just take penalties to them.

By the way, Reflex saves don't make any sense at all, no more than nonlethal damage with a spiked chain.

[Treguard]

There's no need to use an opposed grapple to use SU abilities in it.

But that's what we're trying to explore though, could grappling alter the mechanics of a breath weapon?

[Draz74]

EDIT2: A rogue would lose his evasion class ability while in a grapple, since it explicitely states that a rogue loses this ability when he is denyed his dex bonus to AC. He would still get a save for 1/2 at no notable penalty, just like everyone else.

Grappled targets only lose their Dex bonus to AC vs. opponents other than the one they're grappling with, though. Evasion wouldn't work if an ogre grappled you and a dragon on the side breathed at you, but it would work vs. a Dragon Shaman who breathed at you while grappling you.

[Theli]

Edit: Point raised before, nevermind.

[Admiral Squish]

I had an idea for a monk/sorcerer who would grapple to get a grip on the guy's face, then cast burning hands. But then, there's not much point to that, except being wicked awesome. Similar to your question of breath weapon in grapple.

Logically, they wouldn't get a save. But you'd probably be partially caught in the blast, somewhat. Or at least your arms would be. Whatever you were holding her with.

[Parvum]

Well, using logic, wouldn't a breath weapon actually take a penalty to the DC? Most non-grapple specific actions are similar, correct? Really, to avoid a cone you simply need to be anywhere but directly in front of the breather's face. Same for the line. Unless your DM would allow you to maintain some sort of 'bite-pin', they should probably receive a save.

[Admiral Squish]

It's a cone, right? You could probably give up the distance on the breath weapon and just twist your face downward to deal the damage directly to the grapple-ee. If you're grappling them in the standard fashion (I.E, they're in front of you.) it should work. There's no way you could twist and turn out of the way in a hold like that.

[Gralamin]

would someone get a reflex save if they were entangled or grappled? i was thinking of a dragonfire adept i could make who grappled people and breathes fire in their face, and i noticed there's nothing in the rules about it. What do you guys think??

Their is something in the rules about it, under the Snatch Feat.

[Cuddly]

You can never take away someone's Reflex save for the same reasons you can't take their Fortitude or Will. There's just no way it would ever be fair or balanced.

Don't sleeping people automatically fail will saves?

[tyckspoon]

Don't sleeping people automatically fail will saves?

They're automatically considered 'willing targets'. The *intent* of this is to allow you to cast spells with the 'harmless' descriptor on them; I don't recall how the exact text works out right now. You're not supposed to be able to Dominate, Charm, or otherwise completely bypass the Will save just by getting somebody to sleep.

[RTGoodman]

Looking up Grapple rules a while after first reading this thread, I noticed something odd.

To go strictly by RAW, you can't use a breath weapon while you have someone grappled (under normal circumstances). According to the SRD, the only actions you can take while grappling are Activate a Magic Item, Attack Your Opponent, Cast a Spell, Damage Your Opponent, Draw a Light Weapon, Escape from Grapple, Move, Retrieve a Spell Component, Pin Your Opponent, Break Another's Pin, or Use Opponent's Weapon. Using a Spell-Like or Supernatural Ability isn't on the list, so (unless there's somewhere that says it counts as a spell) strictly you can't do it while in a grapple.

If you still allow a character to use the breath weapon while grappling, though (which is reasonable, since using a spell seems like it'd be harder to do than using an innate ability), the others are right about them not taking any penalty on Reflex saves.