Warhammer 40K vs. Exalted

[Skjaldbakka]

Warhammer is a ridiculously overpowered campaign setting/system, and Exalted is a ridiculously overpowered campaign setting/system.

Who wins? Lets assume that a wormhole of plot opens up between the two universes.

New Terms and Conditions, as requested:

1: Creation is modified to be compatible with Warhammer 40K (is a planet, as has been defined earlier).

2: The Wyld is similar to the Warp, but the Warp is more powerful. Consider the Wyld to be a watered down version of the Warp, which leaked into Creation.

3: Creation appears on the fringes of the galaxy. Some high powered Solar uses magic to keep the Warp at bay in the immediate area of Creation (creating a shield of sorts, I believe the IoM has a tech version, so make it a perfect version of that, around just Creation).

4: The IoM immediately recognizes the threat Creation presents to the IoM, and sends all the forces it can spare w/o other factions tearing them apart.

5: Creation appearing happens just after the IoM has made significant and dramatic victories over its enemies all across the galaxy, and so the threat of other faction is diminished (and they can allocate a large amount of forces to fighting Creation, needing only a token presence maintained on their other worlds).

6: Creation is unaware that the IoM is coming, but they are expecting something bad to come and try to destroy them, and have made preperations including developing a spell that allows Solars to operate in space (I'll let an Exalted buff tell us how costly/difficult that should be, keeping in mind that they need to include protection from the Warp in this spell).

[Tweekinator]

Both settings unified against one another?

Nevermind, that doesn't matter; 40K wins. Any faction. The exalted would never be able to split their die pools to defend against all the attacks that can be brought to bear on them from any of the 40K factions. And that's not counting the 40K demigods/gods.

[Indon]

Depends on if the Primordials get in on the action.

Yes, the Primordials are only planetary-scale, not really cosmic, but the Warhammer universe has very few tools for fighting them. Even the Chaos Gods are manifested as humanoid-like; the Primordials are stuff like "Water". "Wind". "Causality".

And a high-level Exalt _can_ defend against an arbitrary number of attacks, especially with a high-level dodge charm or artifact, or with Sidereal Martial Arts. A single master of the Perfect Arrangement of Creation form (I think that's it, dunno if it exists in the game's 2'nd ed) could bring some pain down on any Warhammer army, and we haven't even gotten into Solar Circle Sorcery yet.

[WalkingTarget]

It's been a while since my last Exalted game. How expensive is Heavenly Guardian Defense? (i.e. how often could a reasonably experienced Solar use it in a short period of time?) That (and equivalent types of charms) gives a minimum time before total destruction if you somehow manage to shoehorn orbital bombardment into the finite Creation where the stars are just painted on the roof after all (I was always a big fan of the possibility of having the Surprise Anticipation Method/Heavenly Guardian Defense combo).

I don't know how things work out if we're relegated to ground troops from 40K, but it'd be fun to watch.

[Rutee]

It's been a while since my last Exalted game. How expensive is Heavenly Guardian Defense? (i.e. how often could a reasonably experienced Solar use it in a short period of time?) That (and equivalent types of charms) gives a minimum time before total destruction if you somehow manage to shoehorn orbital bombardment into the finite Creation where the stars are just painted on the roof after all (I was always a big fan of the possibility of having the Surprise Anticipation Method/Heavenly Guardian Defense combo).

I don't know how things work out if we're relegated to ground troops from 40K, but it'd be fun to watch.

Cheap as Hell. It's been alterred to be like, less-then-a-stunt worth of essence. No WP.

If WH40k moves at it's normal speed (Slow as hell), Exalted. You have what amounts to a natural choke point without unified, proper movement, and a natural choke point pretty much negates the numbers advantage.

If the WH40k people have the slightest bit fo tactical sense, them. While I consider 300k Space Marines against 300 Solars to be a fair fight, there's just /so many/ people..

...Though on that note, there doesn't seem to be that many more then a million Space Marines, which changes quite a few assumptions of mine. Especially since I find it slightly unlikely that they'll all work perfectly together.

The WH40k's biggest problem is time between waves. If it's as big as it could be? Potentially, new replacements for everyone who fell can potentially be trained up (True, these wouldn't be Essence 7-10 God Kings, but to the unExalted, the difference between Essence 3 and 7+ is academic.) Notwithstanding that any God or Demon who falls is only barely inconvenienced, and we are talking about the /entire/ Exalted universe.

Nevermind, that doesn't matter; 40K wins. Any faction. The exalted would never be able to split their die pools to defend against all the attacks that can be brought to bear on them from any of the 40K factions. And that's not counting the 40K demigods/gods.

Uh, Fivefold Bulwark Stance, anyone? Or Flow Like Blood? What Solar is splitting their Dice Pool from Ess 4 onward?

[Hasivel]

Both settings unified against one another?

Nevermind, that doesn't matter; 40K wins. Any faction. The exalted would never be able to split their die pools to defend against all the attacks that can be brought to bear on them from any of the 40K factions. And that's not counting the 40K demigods/gods.

The 40k army would never get a shot off. Any remotely competent just-out-of-chargen solar stealth build could wander around their army all day long without being spotted. Any competent War leader build could outmaneuver and destroy a 40K army using a handful of peasant conscripts armed with sticks and rocks after being surrounded and outnumbered by space marines.
(Note that the definition of the War ability says: "A character with war 5 can plan a strategy that leads to victory when outnumbered and outflanked by the Fair Folk." and the Fair Folk are reality warpers.)
And that's not even the worst of it. A social fu Solar could turn the whole 40K army into his devoted slaves with minimal effort (Presence Ability: "A character with Presence 5 can convince a member of the Wyld Hunt to convert to worship of the Unconquered Sun." The Wyld Hunt being an army of supernaturally powerful beings devoted to destroying worshipers of the Unconquered Sun.)

And this is with pure skill, before you start considering the charms and special powers Exalted have, such as the Perfects which basically say "Ignore the dice, this charm is an "I Win" button unless your enemy also has a Perfect counter. A much more likely event is the 40K army charging in, being converted to serve the Exalted, receiving Tiger Warrior Training to become much more powerful than a normal 40K troops, and then being led by an Exalted General who makes a fusion of Sun Tzu, Thrawn, and Ender look like Custer.

I just can't see 40K winning here. Exalted is all about being massively outnumbered by supernaturally powerful beings and beating them down, hard.

[warty goblin]

Although negotiating with orbital bombardment is somewhat difficult...

I know very little about Exalted, but I feel there's a little underestimation of WH40K going on here. After all, they kill things of truly unimaginable horror and vast supernatural power fairly regularly- look at the Grey Knights. They regularly land on chaos overrun worlds and fight through hordes of heritcs to accomplish their objectives. From what Rutee is saying, they sound remarkable similar to the Solars in a lot of ways.

[Gungnir]

There's a reason they call the Unconquered Sun the Unconquered Sun. He's unconquered. You get that guy leading Solars into battle, everyone is going to die but them.

Plus, there's a hearthstone that basically gives you the classic terrasque immortality. No matter what, if you are attuned to it, you regenerate 1 HP per round. Just give that to a Solar, load him up with whatever else you got, and he can beat 40k by himself while everyone else goes to play chess against the Icemind.

Lets see what else I can think of. Solars can make nukes with their mind. Throw mountains (with or without sorcery!). Send continents into other dimensions. Turn people's souls inside out. Turn any body of water into fire. And I'm pretty sure that there is at least one mention of "infinite damage" in the First Book of Sorcery (artifacts).

Edit: I remembered where the infinite damage came from. There is an artifact called the Five-Metal Shrike. It has a BFG, Lance of the Unconquered Sun, which takes about minute to charge and takes 500 motes of essence (a lot, to the uninitiated) It does "effectively infinite damage" to a large area, then an arbitrarily large amount for like 5 miles out.

[Skjaldbakka]

Isn't the Exalted universe an infinite flat plane? That precludes orbital bombardment. It also makes the IoM's spaceships really big airships. And Flying isn't difficult in Exalted, IIRC.

[warty goblin]

And alpha level psykers can accidentally destroy a planet with their minds, your point?

Unconquered only means nobody's managed to beat them yet, not that they are unbeatable, that's invincible.

Regenerating 1 HP a round? I'm assuming that people in this setting have very few HP, because if they have lots, that's really not very impressive. Cut enough holes in them, they go down, then throw them into a sun. Problem solved, they can regenerate all they want, but I'm guessing that coronial plasma does more than 1 damage a round.

[Gungnir]

Isn't the Exalted universe an infinite flat plane? That precludes orbital bombardment. It also makes the IoM's spaceships really big airships. And Flying isn't difficult in Exalted, IIRC.

It's infinite, but each pole gets more and more like its element as you keep going. North eventually reaches absolute zero, South eventually turns into an infinite wall of fire, East into a infinitely tall forest. and West into an infinite ocean. Oh, and reality falls apart, unless you're a Solar and can force it into place. You could always go high enough that it's effectively orbital bombardment, but yeah, flying is a two or three dot artifact (mild rarity, at least in the Age of Sorrows) for individuals.

I assume this fight is taking place in the First Age, of course. after the terrestrials took down the solars, everything is too f***ed to s*** for anyone to fight back.

Problem solved, they can regenerate all they want, but I'm guessing that coronial plasma does more than 1 damage a round.

Except the Sun is on their side. And they can have pretty much as many as they want. And now that I think of it, immunity to heat is a pretty low cost charm. How were you going to cut all those holes into a guy with a perfect defense again?

[merrja666]

A few Chaos cultists summon a Greater Daemon. The planet gets turned into a Daemon Planet. A Greater Avatar appears. Everybody dies.

[warty goblin]

So, if the world's an infinite plane, how are we setting up this wormhole between the two universes? I'm assuming that there's day and night, so either the sun revolves around the plain, or something covers it up. Destroy the covering, and the plane will be cooked in a deluge of constant energy and seared into a desert. And how are the Exalted peeps, who are stuck way down on the ground ever going to get off of it and threaten the entire galaxy?

And the Exalted sun may be on their side, but I'm guessing that not every single star in the WH40K galaxy is, and black holes certainly are not. Also, in the corona of a star, heat is the least of one's worries. Massive radiation, as well as a freakishly high gravity come to mind.

Anyway, just virus-bomb the plane from a great height and watch the entire biosphere convert to dead goo, then methane and oxygene and then a giant firestorm. Anything that survives (immunity to disease/heat, lack of need for food, water etc) can be easily dealt with by lance batteries from high flying (like well out of the atmosphere) warships, which can turn a two kilometer high mountain into a kilometer deep smoking hole with every shot.

Or get that alpha level psyker...

[Skjaldbakka]

That alpha level psykker isn't gonna be anywhere close to the power level Exalts get. Exalted is an absolutely retarded power level. Even more so than the IoM. The IoM has ridiculously more really powerful people, but I don't even think the Emperor is as retardedly powerful as even PC solars can get. And the antagonists that those PC solars are supposed to fight (or run away screaming from) are even more retardedly powerful.

[Selrahc]

A few Chaos cultists summon a Greater Daemon. The planet gets turned into a Daemon Planet. A Greater Avatar appears. Everybody dies.

The biggest baddest daemons are fairly standard power levels for Exalted.

They are just really really tough in the Exaltedverse.

And alpha level psykers can accidentally destroy a planet with their minds, your point?

Uh... where does an Alpha level psychic do that? I think you're thinking of Alpha plus level. Which is pretty much just the emperor. And the destruction of a planet is not said to be easy, just unintentional.

And where exactly is the Imperium getting this meaningful supply of alpha level psychics that they seem to trot out every versus thread? Alpha level psychics are really really incredibly rare beings. And they're not used by the Imperium of Man, because almost universally they're crazed wierdoes who have to be put down by an inquisitorial strike force. The imperium doesn't have some corps of alpha level psychics it can call up, because those beings are just too powerful, and too unstable to rely on.

I can believe that the Imperium has maybe 2 or 3 dozen alpha level psychics under their control, scattered to the most important areas, and kept under heavy guard. Someone mentioned a guy on the High Council being one, and thats the kind of thing I'd expect. If you keep in mind that these guys are on the power level of armies, rather than star fleets, which puts them way below the power level of the top tier superheroes (Or indeed, powerful Solars). They aren't going to change the course of a versus thread, because their just aren't enough.

[Skjaldbakka]

Anyway, just virus-bomb the plane from a great height and watch the entire biosphere convert to dead goo, then methane and oxygene and then a giant firestorm. Anything that survives (immunity to disease/heat, lack of need for food, water etc) can be easily dealt with by lance batteries from high flying (like well out of the atmosphere) warships, which can turn a two kilometer high mountain into a kilometer deep smoking hole with every shot.

The powerful people of the universe will be immune to the virus bomb. A high level (we're talking PC-able range) Solar could sit in front of your lance battery and take every shot, taking no damage, or deflect it back with minimal effort. You could probably manage to make a combo that would let him cover an entire mountain range, blocking every shot, and sending it back at the thing that fired it with perfect accuracy.

[Tengu]

Exalted wins, because heroic wins with gritty - what was the last time an Exalted character lost a battle with a huge army of weaker troops? All Warhammer soldiers, apart from the heroes, are probably extras in Exaltedverse, thus being nothing more than fodder for stunts (and Essence regaining), and the heroes have less tricks up their sleeve then any exalted, and thus lose.

Also, stuff tailored for anime and mythology fanboys is much more fun than stuff tailored for dark anti-hero-loving 12-17 year olds (official Games Workshop stance).

[warty goblin]

The thing about the IoM is that even if alpha level psykers are a one in a trillion event, that gives them probably thousands if not hundreds of thousands or millions of them.

And I'm hearing all of this stuff about how powerful Exalted is, but so far we have mind nukes, which are still way less impressive than an orbital lance strike, and regeneration, which although cool I don't see being that hard to deal with- dissolving them in acid should work for example. So if I could have some examples I'd appreciate it.

[Selrahc]

The thing about the IoM is that even if alpha level psykers are a one in a trillion event, that gives them probably thousands if not hundreds of thousands or millions of them.

Even rarer than one in a trillion, by all indications. And then they go nuts and attack the imperium. Or they don't go nuts, but get executed anyway, because they're just too much hassle. Or demons take over the psykers body, and use him to bridge to the warp. Or he gets killed in battle, ten days after he becomes combat ready, because hes been thrown into one of the most deadly wars imaginable (For example.. the Battle of Macragge, or being Stationed on Cadia during the Black Crusade.)


There is no indication that the imperium has a large supply of alpha level psychics in reserve. And even if they did, it doesn't matter, because solars are just a whole lot better.

And I'm hearing all of this stuff about how powerful Exalted is, but so far we have mind nukes, which are still way less impressive than an orbital lance strike, and regeneration, which although cool I don't see being that hard to deal with- dissolving them in acid should work for example. So if I could have some examples I'd appreciate it.

You saw that thing about the single solar being able to patrol a mountain range and instantly deflect an entire orbital barrage back at the people shooting it, perfectly? Well that is perfectly doable, and not even at the upper limits of power.

[Gungnir]

A few Chaos cultists summon a Greater Daemon. The planet gets turned into a Daemon Planet. A Greater Avatar appears. Everybody dies.

Anything involving a demon or the undead is trumped by Banishment sorceries. If Solars can do anything, it's swing the banhammer at Evil Things.

The first thing we need to do is set up the playing field. Easiest thing to do is pretty much just turn the Exalted setting into a planet, mostly normal except for patches of pure chaos here and there, since that's one of the Solars biggest advantages: making stuff out of chaos. We'll remove the Fair Folk from the equation, as they'd fit right in with whatever lives in Immaterium. I guess Malfeas fits there too, so we'll chuck that in. Not sure what to do with Heaven (forget Exalted's name for it) For now, I'll just chuck it off in the corner as another separate dimension; not much happens there anyways.

I propose we leave gods and such out of this; the only thing more arbitrary than arguing over fake religions is arguing over real ones.

Now, The main problem is that while flying itself is easy as pie in Exalted, airships are quite uncommon (why bother when you can get there in less than a second yourself?), so there's less rules for them, and the ships that do have rules generally don't get any bigger than say, a modern day aircraft carrier. (I'm short the core rules and the book that had rules for ships, so bear with me.) I'll just try and work with what I've got for now, and assume that there has been enough time for more than one Shrike to be built.

Please continue while I go see what wikipedia has to say on the subject of WH40k.

[Captain van der Decken]

I think you're thinking of Alpha plus level. Which is pretty much just the emperor.

There were a few being paraded at Thracian Primaris, so there are (probably) more than just the Emperor.

I'd expect if there are any of them, they serve Chaos, but 40k isn't just the Imperium.

[warty goblin]

There were a few being paraded at Thracian Primaris, so there are (probably) more than just the Emperor.

I'd expect if there are any of them, they serve Chaos, but 40k isn't just the Imperium.

That's true, an entire planet of unprotected psykers, Chaos is going to have a field day- exploding heads for all!

[Selrahc]

That's true, an entire planet of unprotected psykers, Chaos is going to have a field day- exploding heads for all!

Uh... None of the exalted are getting their powers from the warp, so they don't count as psykers.

Just because the warp is where fantastic powers come from in 40K, doesn't mean that people with fantastic powers from other universes count as psykers for the purposes of a 40K versus thread.

[Indon]

I might as well go a bit into Exalted power sources.

The universe is made from Essence. Reality is governed by a large machine in heaven and a bunch of spirits with a hive-mind and a bureaucratic bent.

The universe was made by Primordials, kind of semi-abstract superentities including the planet itself (Gaia, the maker of the Dragons), the being which formerly governed reality (Autochthon, AWOL from Creation at the moment), and the Black Wind of Malfeas, a being whose mere passing apparently kills unarmored humans in about 7 seconds. The Exalted aren't good terms with these guys, and to be honest, I think they would make the fight unfair, so except for Gaia (who's obviously already there) they don't get to come into creation to help. (And to be honest, Gaia doesn't do much anyway)

Next down we have the Incarna, basically high-tier deities. They have everything you'd expect of a deity, though they're greek-roman style more than they are judeo-christian (so no, not I Win buttons in the fight). We could include them or not, really. They include beings in charge of the elements, the sun, the moon, and the five planets closest to the sun.

Next down we have Celestial Exalts, immortal spirits which leap-frog from mortal bodies into new mortal bodies selected by an enigmatic lesser deity (having their memories cleaned along the way). We should settle ASAP what counts as an eligable body, because if an Exalt's essence can just jump into a Space Marine, and said deity decides not to wipe old memories, that might get freaky.

There are about 1000 Celestial Exalts max in creation; a number which is invariable. Big downside.

Then we have Terrestrial Exalts, super-powered mortals whose power is more genetic than that of the Celestial Exalts. They're basically the grunts of the universe, and a single weak Terrestrial Exalt is probably about a match for an Eldar or an Ork, while a strong one is a match for a Space or Chaos marine. Their numbers vary wildly throughout the history of the world.

If we're doing this in the first age, then the Dragon Kings deserve an honorable mention - they're basically sentient, magical dinosaurs, and there were a whole lot of them at the time.

[Gungnir]

Don't forget the Sidereals! What with their near-direct control over fate.

[Thinker]

Don't forget the Sidereals! What with their near-direct control over fate.

Those are the Celestial Exalts.

[Gungnir]

Those are the Celestial Exalts.

Right. I knew that. I tend to lump Lunars and Solars together because they can be pretty similar (minus the shapechanging part), and leave Sidereals alone in their own group since they never hang out with anyone else.

[Poison_Fish]

Next down we have Celestial Exalts, immortal spirits which leap-frog from mortal bodies into new mortal bodies selected by an enigmatic lesser deity (having their memories cleaned along the way). We should settle ASAP what counts as an eligable body, because if an Exalt's essence can just jump into a Space Marine, and said deity decides not to wipe old memories, that might get freaky.

Lytek must be having fun chucking the essence shards into space marines.

There are about 1000 Celestial Exalts max in creation; a number which is invariable. Big downside.

Actually, there are 700. 100 sidereal shards, 300 lunar shards, 150 solar shards (give or take), 100 abyssal shards, and 50 solar shards sitting around being all infernally thanks to the Yozi. The Yozi being the Primordials who aren't dead. The neverborn are the "dead" primordials, but they are concepts, and concepts can't die. They just be smacked around by solars enough to change what their concept is. Then they sit near a giant gaping hole of nothing and be emo because they can't jump into it.

Not sure what to do with Heaven (forget Exalted's name for it) For now, I'll just chuck it off in the corner as another separate dimension; not much happens there anyway.

Yu Shan is heaven's name.

As for connecting the two universes, it'd be pretty easy to say that the 40k verse flies in from their big universe into a portion of the eye of terror once left alone by chaos. The further they go in, the more "chaos" becomes "The Wyld" so the speak. The plane becomes flat, etc.

Now, as to the survival of the exalted universe, I have doubts it would be able to manage in the age of sorrows. The solars are too young(Then again, you'd have the infernals and death lords to deal with instead). But if we are talking about the first age here, or some incredibly lucky solars who are XP'd up to 5 or 6, there is a lot of trouble.

Of course, there is but one simple answer to this fight. A medium powered eclipse could bring whatever immediate forces that enter the area into a stand still. With his bureaucracy skills. Take the foul air of argument technique. Suddenly, the leaders or leader is bickering with his allies over what to do. The proud order of the imperial fleet can fall apart. Even space marines might end up fighting against each other again.

I know, you may think I am underestimating the perseverance of the imperium to follow orders, but I'm not. Solars are just that silly insane.

Actually, best way to stop the fleet, a single zenith. High performance and endurance. He/she does Respect Commanding Attitude and broadcasts himself to the entire fleet with a few other advanced solar charms/artifacts twilight's make. He/she then proceeds to perform for the entire audience, going on without food for generations. The war fleets that keep coming die from old age (And I do mean over the course of at least a couple 100 years).

In case you don't know, Respect Commanding Attitude forces whatever your audience may be to listen to you until your done, and may take no other actions, save for defending themselves if struck at. This is a good charm to get monologues in. I'm just looking at in the extreme.

[MeklorIlavator]

Actually, best way to stop the fleet, a single zenith. High performance and endurance. He/she does Respect Commanding Attitude and broadcasts himself to the entire fleet with a few other advanced solar charms/artifacts twilight's make. He/she then proceeds to perform for the entire audience, going on without food for generations. The war fleets that keep coming die from old age (And I do mean over the course of at least a couple 100 years).

In case you don't know, Respect Commanding Attitude forces whatever your audience may be to listen to you until your done, and may take no other actions, save for defending themselves if struck at. This is a good charm to get monologues in. I'm just looking at in the extreme.

So...he's effectively going to filibuster the invasion to death. Exalted is somewhat ridiculous.
You may have to do it for longer than centuries, however, as the space marines can live at least a millennium(possibly longer).

[warty goblin]

How is a dude on the planet/plane surface talking to guys firing missiles from ships several thousand kilometers away? I don't think that really counts as an audience somehow. And even if they can tie up one fleet, just send another to the other side of the planet. The thing about WH40K is that they always have more resources, and once the first fleet gets tied up, they'll just send another, or fire off one of those nifty Warp torpedoes that move everything on the planet surface into the Warp. Sure it might kill the fleet as well, but ships can be rebuilt.