Ninja good or bad

[de-trick]

Based on the class features is a ninja 3.5 a good class. This is not a discussion on fluff and how it is a Oriental flavored class.

Also Are there any Handbooks online to show how to make a optimized Ninja or good prestige class/builds.

[Bag_of_Holding]

I believe Ninja is a solid class. Although Sudden Strike seems inferior to good ol' Sneak Attack, Ninja's various abilities (especially Ghost Step) compensates the drawback. As an expert, Ninja can get the job done well and fast, as a fellow party member it can hold its own in some serious fights (not tanking, but landing those precious sudden strike down).

[marjan]

I see ninja as not that great mix of monk and rogue. You'll have hard time optimizing his sudden strike (TWF doesn't work), he gets evasion later than the rogue, cannot wear armor (which means it's harder to boost AC), unlike monk has only one good save, has more MAD than rogue (monks need str, ninjas need int everything else is same), less skill points then rogue, worse skill list then rogue...

[Parvum]

They can take a feat to earn a smite attack that does not discriminate based on alignment (always good in certain books) as well as a bunch of other Ki feats that are just plain fun. Effective, though? Debatable.

[Just Alex]

Most effective ninja I could come up with was out of the Eberron system.
Either a Talenta Halfling or Xendrik Drow with a level of fighter to pick up martial weapon prof. Take Boomerang Daze and Boomerang Ricochet, then start pulling Ghost Steps to get the Sudden Strikes and making the DC save on Boomerang Daze really high. I like it better than with rogue because you can more easily pull off repeated ranged Sudden Strikes than SA. Sillyness can happen if you take the Ninja/Fighter multi class feat so you can pickup Weapon Supremacy and throw boomerangs while in a grapple, but that's not really necessary.

[Ikkitosen]

...You'll have hard time optimizing his sudden strike (TWF doesn't work)...

Sorry, why not? If you're standing next to your opponent you can turn invisible as a Swift Action and full attack the crap out of them with multiple Sudden Strikes. Remember, they're invisible for a round, not a round or until they attack.

[EvilElitest]

not as good as samurai
from,
EE

[kentma57]

The ninja base class is OK, IF you want a ninja that is closer to a true ninja. But it does not specialize well and I prefer not to play them.

[Baron Malkar]

In my oppinion the ninja spy from Oriental Adventures 3.0 is a better ninja in both abilitys (still gets sneak attack) and role playing reasons (you have to earn the pristige class).

[Craig1f]

Ninjas make great NPCs, but subpar NPCs. If the party isn't powergaming, then they're not bad. But they don't really fill the rogue's shoes.

[marjan]

Sorry, why not? If you're standing next to your opponent you can turn invisible as a Swift Action and full attack the crap out of them with multiple Sudden Strikes. Remember, they're invisible for a round, not a round or until they attack.

Didn't it have a line something like "as per invisibility spell"? Don't have book with me right now.

[wadledo]

@marjan:It's on Crystal Keep, so as I can see it, no.

I like the class, because it feels a bit more like a combination of scout, monk, and rogue that actually churns out something better than their base parts.
A better way of looking at it is as a mini Assassin.

[Tengu]

Ninjas are completely not how are they supposed to be. Where's chakra usage, where are various ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu? It doesn't even have the ability to create illusionary clones!

Spoiler

Show

And on a serious note, the worst thing about the class is that everything it can do, a rogue can do better - they have better damage output because sneak attack is superior to sudden strike, are better skillmonkeys because they have more base skill points and broader skill selection, and are less MAD - no use for wisdom.

[Hasivel]

Didn't it have a line something like "as per invisibility spell"? Don't have book with me right now.

I just checked my book, it doesn't say as per invisibility spell. Ikkitosen is right, it's 1 round, not 1 attack. I would have sworn it was the other way around too.

Even so I think it's fairly weak, particularly as the levels increase. A lot of things can see invisible as you go up and that weakens it a good bit.

A Ninja is pure bad but I think, in comparison to the Rogue, the big hit is the loss of 2 skill points and the almighty UMD skill. UMD is what lets the Rogue play with the Wizards and other casters on their level. The Ninja without it gets left behind with the fighter and monk as levels go up.

[wadledo]

Ninjas are completely not how are they supposed to be. Where's chakra usage, where are various ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu? It doesn't even have the ability to create illusionary clones!

Spoiler

Show

And on a serious note, the worst thing about the class is that everything it can do, a rogue can do better - they have better damage output because sneak attack is superior to sudden strike, are better skillmonkeys because they have more base skill points and broader skill selection, and are less MAD - no use for wisdom.

Dragon mag made some really cool feats for ninjas that replicate a bunch of naruto esque. stuff.
The biggest benefit of the ninja is that it truly is the master of sneakyness, even better(level for level) than the shadowdancer.

[Talya]

Yeah, yeah. Ninja might seem to be an okay class at first glance, but it's a trap! The moment you run into anyone with the Swashbuckler, Dread Pirate, Scarlet Corsair, or similar classes, (or even 5 ranks in Profession: Sailor and a chaotic alignment) you automatically lose!

[nargbop]

I disliked the ninja class enough to make me homebrew it entirely for a campaign of mine. Fixes included :
1 ) sudden attack became sneak attack, stacking with other sneak attacks. A ninja should be able to knock someone out for interrogation
2 ) more ki powers, and more interesting ki powers. I'm encouraging my players to write their own.
3 ) ki dodge became a raw AC bonus, not concealment. I don't like concealment, it takes more rolls and much longer time to resolve a single player's turn.
4 ) evasion. Evasion! Come on!

Good things about the original ninja :
1 ) invisibility for a single round, not more. You have to creep up to your target, then in a single round, turn invisible then sudden attack them. You cannot idle around invisible. This is a reasonable D&D interpretation of the ninja.
2 ) fewer class skills than the rogue. Ninjas should not hiders, sneakers, killers, AND performers.

[OverWilliam]

Dragon mag made some really cool feats for ninjas that replicate a bunch of naruto esque. stuff.
The biggest benefit of the ninja is that it truly is the master of sneakyness, even better(level for level) than the shadowdancer.

Is that actually online anywhere? I have (briefly) dipped into the vastness of the interweb looking for them and I have drawn a blank... That sounds very interesting and I would like to do more reading on that.

[Tengu]

Dragon mag made some really cool feats for ninjas that replicate a bunch of naruto esque. stuff.
The biggest benefit of the ninja is that it truly is the master of sneakyness, even better(level for level) than the shadowdancer.

I was being sarcastic, but good to know, I'd guess...

And unluckily, the bad thing about sneaking is that when you're scouting around, more often than not the rest of the party sits there bored, doing nothing.

[NobleSavage]

I think by level ten the two skill point loss is negated. Ghost Step (ethereal) makes Open Lock and Disable Device (when not sabotaging something) obsolete. Oh, treasure? I'll just step through said wall/locked door grab it, and bring it out. You can always smash locks.

Didn't pick up on the uniqueness of its invisi-ability, good catch.

[Necromas]

In the end a ninja from complete adventurer is kind of like a weaker rogue, personally I'd rather play a rogue and flavor him as a ninja than play a ninja, but the class isn't bad enough to be useless.

There's a ninja in another book, a setting called rokugan or something like that, that is what I figured a ninja should have been, it's more combat focused then a rogue, with the biggest difference being full BAB, but it doesn't get all the juicy rogue abilities.

[The Faceless]

Yeah, yeah. Ninja might seem to be an okay class at first glance, but it's a trap! The moment you run into anyone with the Swashbuckler, Dread Pirate, Scarlet Corsair, or similar classes, (or even 5 ranks in Profession: Sailor and a chaotic alignment) you automatically lose!

It doesn't even have a "Totally flip out and kill people" class feature.

[Talya]

There's a ninja in another book, a setting called rokugan or something

Okay, Oriental Adventures (Rokugan) is THE d20 orient/far east setting. The Ninja/Samurai/Wu-Jen/etc. classes in the "Complete" series of books are crap. If you really want to play an eastern flavored class, go pick up OA. (it is, unfortunately, 3e, not 3.5e, so it takes some minor conversion to make them work on occasion.) That setting was so wonderfully thought out and put together, it puts D&D to shame.

[NobleSavage]

It doesn't even have a "Totally flip out and kill people" class feature.

Heh, yeah.

Their weapons should also always be vorpal.

[Draz74]

Yeah, yeah. Ninja might seem to be an okay class at first glance, but it's a trap! The moment you run into anyone with the Swashbuckler, Dread Pirate, Scarlet Corsair, or similar classes, (or even 5 ranks in Profession: Sailor and a chaotic alignment) you automatically lose!

YARRR! QFT.

I agree with people who were saying that you can generally make a better ninja out of a Rogue than out of a Ninja. (Or Swordsage. It's even better for rejlacing the Ninja than it is for replacing the Monk.)

Hmmm. The ultimate showdown, Pirate vs. Ninja ... who are both actually the same (pure Rogue) build save for a couple differences in skill and feat selection. Fun.

[ALOR]

I really like the ninja, and combined with a warlock and weilding a spiked chain. Well it's just so much fun.

[EvilElitest]

Okay, Oriental Adventures (Rokugan) is THE d20 orient/far east setting. The Ninja/Samurai/Wu-Jen/etc. classes in the "Complete" series of books are crap. If you really want to play an eastern flavored class, go pick up OA. (it is, unfortunately, 3e, not 3.5e, so it takes some minor conversion to make them work on occasion.) That setting was so wonderfully thought out and put together, it puts D&D to shame.

why did they drop that whole genre, i think foreign styled D&D would be amazing (Middle Eastern, Indian, Native American, Chinese, Japanese, Mongolian, Indonesian, Africa, Egyptian ect)
i liked that Book and the SE arabian adventures
from,
EE

[Tengu]

For a feudal Japan-style game, just play Legend of the 5 Rings, the non-d20 game that introduced Rokugan first. It's much better and more flavorful than DND (though frankly, that's not hard).

[Shas aia Toriia]

Ninja's aren't that effective in my opinion, but I agree with the AP for a Japanish game.

[EvilElitest]

For a feudal Japan-style game, just play Legend of the 5 Rings, the non-d20 game that introduced Rokugan first. It's much better and more flavorful than DND (though frankly, that's not hard).

1. I do play Rokugan, but it certainly isn't totally feudal Japan (some chinese mix) but i like it, the system puts me off edge though and i don't like the way they do their lore. Good system though
2. Any chance that there is a middle eastern version, i've always wanted to be Sinbad
From,
EE