The suck that is Dodge

[Fruan]

So, I have a player that's interested in going for Spring Attack. The only problem is that Dodge is such a horrible feat - not just in terms of power, but mainly in terms of bookkeeping.

I'm certain I recall hearing about another feat that doesn't have the headache which can count as dodge for the purposes of Mobility's prereqs, but I can't find it anywhere - Did I dream this feat, or is it somewhere obscure?

[Nerd-o-rama]

My vote is say screw it and let Dodge give +1 Dodge AC against everyone. But that's just me.

The only official feat prereq substitution I know off the top of my head is Improved Toughness for Toughness. And Sudden Strike can count as Sneak Attack for meeting prereqs, but that's a class feature.

[JackMage666]

Expeditious Dodge, from Races of the Wild, I think can.

As well, theres a feat in Tome of Battle that can, though I don't remember itto well. It was a Desert Wind-related feat.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

wait for 4th ed...if SW Saga is any indicator, 'Running Attack' is th enew spring attack and it has NO prereqs at all. Just a dex minimum.

[Nowhere Girl]

Desert Wind Dodge from page 29 of the Tome of Batte is what you're looking for.

[Tokiko Mima]

Expeditious Dodge, from Races of the Wild, I think can.

As well, theres a feat in Tome of Battle that can, though I don't remember itto well. It was a Desert Wind-related feat.

You mean Desert Wind Dodge. Desert Wind Dodge takes the place of Dodge as a prerequisite and adds +1 dodge AC (versus everyone) and +1 fire damage to melee attacks on any round where the character moves 10 feet or more. I think it's the best published option.

There's also Midnight Dodge from Magic of Incarnum. But it's basically just like regular Dodge, but you have to invest essentia in it and it gives +essentia AC versus a single foe. Not really much of a solution, since it's even more work to track!

[Aquaseafoam]

My vote is say screw it and let Dodge give +1 Dodge AC against everyone. But that's just me.

Thats what ive done. The feat still sucks, it just has less of a sting to it.

[Kurald Galain]

Here's a thought: if you're going to houserule anyway, simply allow the player to take Spring Attack without having Dodge. It's not like that's going to be overpowered or anything

[Altair_the_Vexed]

How about this for a House Rule for you?

The dodge bonus scales with level. At 5th level, 10th level, 15th level and 20th level, the character gains another point of dodge bonus, which may be assigned to the same opponent, or split between opponents. Thus a 15th level character with the Dodge feat may assign a plus 4 bonus to AC against one opponent, or a plus 2 bonus against two opponents, or a plus 1 bonus against four opponents.

That make Dodge worth having at higher levels, reduces suckitude, and keeps it fairly balanced.

[Kurald Galain]

How about this for a House Rule for you?

It makes it worse - the main problem with dodge is the bookkeeping.

[Zenos]

It makes it worse - the main problem with dodge is the bookkeeping.

Just make it a constant modifier that scales with levels then.

[kemmotar]

Actually, there is also one good point about dodge...it's the only prereq for defensive throw...Also at lower levels +1 AC is a good boost and at higher levels it won't hurt...All you need to do is figure out if the feat you want to take is worth taking dodge as a prereq...imo spring attack isn't all that useful but in the case of defensive throw i think it's more than worth it...

[Zenos]

Actually, there is also one good point about dodge...it's the only prereq for defensive throw...Also at lower levels +1 AC is a good boost and at higher levels it won't hurt...All you need to do is figure out if the feat you want to take is worth taking dodge as a prereq...imo spring attack isn't all that useful but in the case of defensive throw i think it's more than worth it...

Remember he also doesn't want to do so much bookkeeping.

[UserClone]

Actually, there is a feat called Dextrous Dodge from Ultimate Feats (Mongoose. Yeah, I know.) which specifically counts as dodge for the purpose of prereqs. Its function is to increase your Dex by 2 for the purposes of AC only. (Note: Effectively, this is a +1 dodge bonus, as they share the limitation of not functioning when you are caught flatfooted or are otherwise denied your Dex to AC.) I see nothing unbalancing about swapping it out for dodge.

[Kurald Galain]

Actually, there is also one good point about dodge...it's the only prereq for defensive throw...Also at lower levels +1 AC is a good boost and at higher levels it won't hurt...

Being a prerequisite doesn't make it good; it merely means you sometimes need crappy things in order to take good things. Besides, defensive throw already has several other prereqs, so it doesn't need that particular prereq to be balanced.

A +1 bonus to armor class (or indeed, to just about anything) is never a good boost. It is a mediocre boost at low levels, and an irrelevant boost at high levels. This is why, for instance, Power Attack is a much better feat than Weapon Focus.

Heck, WOTC is even aware that Dodge and that +3 HP feat are extremely bottom-tier, hence they have made several attempts at obsoleting them by feats that actually do something useful.

[Curmudgeon]

The only official feat prereq substitution I know off the top of my head is Improved Toughness for Toughness.

Since when is that "official"? Here's what an official substitution looks like:

Expeditious Dodge [General]

You're good at avoiding attacks while moving quickly.

Prerequisite: Dex 13.
Benefit: When you move 40 feet or more in a single turn, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to your Armor Class until the beginning of your next turn.
Special: Expeditious Dodge can be used in place of the Dodge feat to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. A fighter may select Expeditious Dodge as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[kemmotar]

Being a prerequisite doesn't make it good; it merely means you sometimes need crappy things in order to take good things. Besides, defensive throw already has several other prereqs, so it doesn't need that particular prereq to be balanced.

A +1 bonus to armor class (or indeed, to just about anything) is never a good boost. It is a mediocre boost at low levels, and an irrelevant boost at high levels. This is why, for instance, Power Attack is a much better feat than Weapon Focus.

That's why i said that it becomes a "good" feat if it's a prereq for a feat that is worth it even if it isn't, per se, a good feat...for example in the case of defensive throw, dodge in itself is a really crappy feat, but because defensive throw is actually very good it's more than worth one crappy feat. It's no use saying that defensive throw doesn't need dodge to be a balanced feat because it has dodge as a prereq and it is a balanced feat...wotc isn't gonna change it. If your DM houserules you don't need dodge that's fine.

Also a +1 AC may not seem much but there are times you wish you had that extra 1 AC that makes the difference between death and life in many cases, or that extra +1 AR. No feat, no matter how crappy it is, isn't useless. Plus, if it's a prereq for a great feat, then it makes taking the one crappy feat more than worth it outweighing the uselessness of one feat the usefulness of the other.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Since when is that "official"? Here's what an official substitution looks like:

After checking my Complete Warrior, I seem to be full of crap. But Desert Wind Dodge is what the OP was looking for.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm certain I recall hearing about another feat that doesn't have the headache which can count as dodge for the purposes of Mobility's prereqs, but I can't find it anywhere

If you're trying to find a better way to meet the Spring Attack prerequisites, you should also consider the Mobility armor special ability. You're basically buying the feat at a +1 armor enhancement cost. The main limitation is that it won't work on medium or heavier armor. But it would work as an add-on to Bracers of Armor, if you can afford it.

[Kurald Galain]

So, I have a player that's interested in going for Spring Attack.

One solution is to give the player a means of flying, then give him Flyby Attack. It works essentially the same but doesn't have the silly prereqs. Depends on what level this is at, of course.

[JMobius]

If you're trying to find a better way to meet the Spring Attack prerequisites, you should also consider the Mobility armor special ability. You're basically buying the feat at a +1 armor enhancement cost. The main limitation is that it won't work on medium or heavier armor. But it would work as an add-on to Bracers of Armor, if you can afford it.

Errr, do feats provided by items really count as meeting prereqs?

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, feats provided by items meet the prerequisites; and you stop meeting the prerequisites when you lose the item. It's confirmed in the FAQ.

[Leicontis]

IMO, Dodge isn't the weak prereq for Spring Attack - Mobility is. It's made partially obsolete by the Tumble skill, and partially obsolete by the very feat it's requried for. Granted, +4 AC is nothing to sneeze at, but what how often are you going to, when spring attacking, run past another opponent without successfully tumbling? To be honest, I think you'd be better off taking Acrobatic or Skill Focus: Tumble than Mobility.

Dodge, especially with the (apparently popular) houserule of providing a continuous +1 dodge bonus (which puts it on par with Improved Natural Armor), is quite useful at low levels, and even at high levels is still giving the same useful bonus - it decreases most enemies' chance to hit you (and confirm crits) by 5%. That's approximately a 5% reduction in overall physical damage taken - not too bad for a feat.

But, as stated above, you're better off gaining flight somehow and taking Flyby Attack, especially since it allows ANY STANDARD ACTION during the move.

[Severedevil]

That's approximately a 5% reduction in overall physical damage taken - not too bad for a feat.

Actually, it means that 5% of the time an attack that would've hit you misses. That's more than a 5% reduction in damage, and dodge bonuses count against touch attack, so it's not only physical damage.

Mobility is valuable if you fix tumble in some way. Of course, most fighting classes can't tumble very well anyway. But what if we combine Dodge and Mobility:

Dodge [General]

Prerequisite: Dex 13.
Benefit: You receive a +1 dodge bonus to armor class. This bonus increases to +5 against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area.

[Wordmiser]

IMO, Dodge isn't the weak prereq for Spring Attack - Mobility is. It's made partially obsolete by the Tumble skill, and partially obsolete by the very feat it's requried for. Granted, +4 AC is nothing to sneeze at, but what how often are you going to, when spring attacking, run past another opponent without successfully tumbling? To be honest, I think you'd be better off taking Acrobatic or Skill Focus: Tumble than Mobility.

Tumbling cuts your speed in half, which really makes Spring Attack fairly pointless. Mobility is pretty okay as far as I can see.

If he's getting his base speed to 40+ft, Expeditious Dodge (as has been mentioned but not emphasized) gives a flat +2 to AC as long as he moves 40ft in a round. It seems to be the one to go for.

---
But I'm a fan of boosting the flat bonus feats to scale by level. Most I would give +1/four levels (Though some feats like Toughness and the Animal Affinity/Self Sufficient types are exceptions. For those two skill types, I'd boost the bonuses to +1/level and +1/six levels, respectively)

[Hurlbut]

Tumbling cuts your speed in half, which really makes Spring Attack fairly pointless. Mobility is pretty okay as far as I can see.

If he's getting his base speed to 40+ft, Expeditious Dodge (as has been mentioned but not emphasized) gives a flat +2 to AC as long as he moves 40ft in a round. It seems to be the one to go for.

Sound like something a scout would do.

[Yami]

Something that a pouncing spring attack scout would do! ^_~

[CactusAir]

I just houseruled dodge and mobility into a single feat.

[Curmudgeon]

Tumbling cuts your speed in half, which really makes Spring Attack fairly pointless.

It doesn't have to cut your speed. Accelerated Tumbling just means you bump the DCs up by 10. If you're a Rogue who's going for Shadowdancer (same prerequisites as Spring Attack, which is the only way a Rogue can justify this feat tree), then using Tumble at full speed with Spring Attack is pure sweetness: see the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick in Complete Scoundrel for why.

[Stephen_E]

Dodge isn't to bad. If you're getting Elusive target you need it to make 2 of the 3 abilities gained work.

But it's true that all feats aren't equal, and Dodge is one of the weaker ones that is mostly taken for prereq purposes. It's still more useful than Greater TWFing.

Stephen