Monk Challenge!

[Talic]

Ok, everyone's been ragging on the monk, so I thought I'd give everyone the opportunity to help a monk shine. Using any non-diplocheese, non-infinite method, build a character (all classes must be monk or monk-themed PrC) that can singlehandedly, and reliably, defeat in single combat, an....

Ancient White Dragon.

Use any level you like up to 20.

Please utilize the balance skill in your builds, as most white dragons love icy lairs, given their icewalking ability.

RULES:
* Monk is the ONLY base class allowed.
* All PrC's must be explicitly monk-themed. Any PrC that "could be" monk-themed with proper choices is not enough.
* It must be Single combat. The dragon isn't taking leadership, neither are you.
* No Diplo-cheese.
* Nothing infinite.
* No Use Magic Device wins.
* All magic items must be from sources published by WotC.
* Levels are 1-20, and lowest level reliable build wins.
* Character does get WBL, no more than 25% WBL on any single item.
* Alternate races are allowed, but let's try to make the class shine, not the race. Lowest total ECL wins.

[Cuddly]

Suggested rules modfications:
No UMD or custom magic items
Get rid of the 75% monk levels, so you can take 10 or 15 levels in monk PrCs.

[Talic]

Original post edited, and suggestions factored in. Good idea, both of them.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Something like Factotum - 3, Monk -3, Psionic Fist - 10, Tattooed Monk - 3, Sword Sage -1 without transparency.

[Talic]

Something like Factotum - 3, Monk -3, Psionic Fist - 10, Tattooed Monk - 3, Sword Sage -1 without transparency.

Is Factotum monk-themed? And Sword Sage is neither Monk, nor a monk-themed PrC.

[13_CBS]

Is Factotum monk-themed? And Sword Sage is neither Monk, nor a monk-themed PrC.

It can be if the Sword Sage is unarmed.

[Alleine]

Factotum is the ultimate jack of all trades, and can be monk themed if it wants/needs to be.

[Kaelik]

I will enter with the Ultimate Monk (adding a new rule of what not to do) and the perfect defense of the "Core is balanced" fan club (IE Giamoco).

Monk 20. Maxed Charisma.

Leadership. Improved Cohort.

Wizard 19 Cohort battles White Dragon.

[CompositeSanta]

^
He said singlehandedly in single combat.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Is Factotum monk-themed? And Sword Sage is neither Monk, nor a monk-themed PrC.

It depends on where you draw the line. I was responding to the original post which I understood to allow up to 25% non monk levels.

IMO most people can build a monk capable of defeating most specific monsters in a combat by using suggested wealth by level. The 3 Factotum levels mostly give the PC monk a boost or an edge in most other unknown encounters by taking advantage of utilizing Inspiration Points during the encounter.

IMO utilizing Inspiration Points with the Factotum special abilitie in combination with existing Monk abilities is similar to taking Rogue levels and having Sneak Attack stack with Unarmed Damage using the Ascetic Rogue feat, there is a nice synergy between the class abilities.

I disagree the Monk is the original unarmed specialist Martial Adept who can also use weapons.

The Sword Sage is another type of martial adept who can be an unarmed martial adept.

[Xefas]

^
He said singlehandedly in single combat.

Well, Leadership is a feat, and the cohort doesn't even factor into XP division like a separate entity would.

Plus, that's probably the most effective Monk build possible without an infinite loop.

[Talic]

Factotum is not specifically monk themed, therefore it is out. This test is here to help monk shine. Not to fall back on the same crutches people use for every character build.

And single combat does mean single combat. Take leadership if you want, but assume all your cronies are washing dishes at your monk bed and breakfast.

If it is a base class and its title does not start with "M" and end in "onk", it's out. This includes Sword sage, and all other ToB base classes.

If it is a prestige class and is not explicitly for monk, then it is out. We're not using monk to complement another class. Monk IS the class being used here.

[Yami]

Wait what!? Swordsage is not monk themed?

Take a good long look at that class. Maybe even play it a bit. Swordsage is the monk of ToB. Just like warblade is the barbarian and crusader the paladin. Fighter of course, still gets relegated to 2 level dips, but I digress.

[Talic]

Wait what!? Swordsage is not monk themed?

Take a good long look at that class. Maybe even play it a bit. Swordsage is the monk of ToB. Just like warblade is the barbarian and crusader the paladin. Fighter of course, still gets relegated to 2 level dips, but I digress.

The point is not whether Sword sage is the "monk of ToB". This test is specifically to try to show some good in the MONK class. Not the Monk of ToB. Therefore, the only base class allowed in the Challenge is Monk.

We're not arguing if Swordsages make better monks than monks. They do. We all know this. That's not the point of the challenge. The challenge is seeing what you can do with an handicap. This is your chance to shine. Don't fall back on the power classes. The spirit of this challenge is making a bad class look good. That's what the goal is.

Not whether or not Sword Sage is monk themed.

[mabriss lethe]

I'm thinking ratling monk 20 Lawful evil

exotic weapon proficiency with tail spikes.
Multi-whatever fighting that seems to fit best with the DM.
fiery fists, lots of extra stunning. ability focus (stunning fist) Vile ki strike.
flaming burst gauntlet and a curse spewing tailspike., vile weapon ring, (maybe...) A basic suite of protective items.

max ranks in tumble, jump, balance and whatever else I feel like filling in the blanks.

theory: lots of attacks per round with minimized penalties. 1st round fiery strikes and curse spewing, second round, stunning fist. lather, rinse, repeat.

There are some grey areas about how many attacks, etc. (haven't seen dragon mag's updated ratlings, so...shrugs.)

[Nebo_]

Since this is level 20 and not ECL 20, my entrant is an Ancient Gold Wyrm Monk 20.

[Talic]

Sigh. Some people just don't understand the concept behind "making a bad class shine". The race is doing all the work. While alternate races ARE allowed, please, please keep it reasonable. I left them open so that you all can run illumians, half-ogres, and the like without worrying overmuch about ECL adjustments. Try not to abuse that overmuch, k?

[Talic]

I'm thinking ratling monk 20 Lawful evil

exotic weapon proficiency with tail spikes.
Multi-whatever fighting that seems to fit best with the DM.
fiery fists, lots of extra stunning. ability focus (stunning fist) Vile ki strike.
flaming burst gauntlet and a curse spewing tailspike., vile weapon ring, (maybe...) A basic suite of protective items.

max ranks in tumble, jump, balance and whatever else I feel like filling in the blanks.

theory: lots of attacks per round with minimized penalties. 1st round fiery strikes and curse spewing, second round, stunning fist. lather, rinse, repeat.

There are some grey areas about how many attacks, etc. (haven't seen dragon mag's updated ratlings, so...shrugs.)

Interesting, and I think the first serious entry. Hitting the AC might still be a bit rough, but doable. Question... Why Vile? It always seemed to me that vile damage was really only good for long term. If you're planning on wrecking shop, vile ain't quite as hot...

[Kurald Galain]

If it is a base class and its title does not start with "M" and end in "onk", it's out.

Isn't there a Master Gronk class out there somewhere?

Anyway, the two obvious solutions to this puzzle are (1) polymorph cheese, and (2) using as many levels as possible in some combination of races and templates. In the last monk contest, it turned out that the most effective "monk" was one who tried the hardest at being "not a monk".

[Talic]

Isn't there a Master Gronk class out there somewhere?

Anyway, the two obvious solutions to this puzzle are (1) polymorph cheese, and (2) using as many levels as possible in some combination of races and templates. In the last monk contest, it turned out that the most effective "monk" was one who tried the hardest at being "not a monk".

And in this one, the biggest goal is: "Make monk look good." I want to see if someone can find a way to cheese the monk abilities, not rely on the same tried and true cheese.

[Kurald Galain]

And in this one, the biggest goal is: "Make monk look good." I want to see if someone can find a way to cheese the monk abilities, not rely on the same tried and true cheese.

Yes, I get that, but someone will be along shortly to tell you that the game is soooo balanced because monks can polymorph.

Frankly, I don't think this challenge can be won by fighting fair; the monk does not seem to have much of a chance against the dragon, except by resorting to leadership cheese / gating cheese / poly cheese or other kinds of gouda.

[Kurald Galain]

For the record, here are the dragon's stats.

Some highlights: 375 hp, +39 attack, +49 base grapple, saves 23/17/19, and a frightful presence DC of 27. AC 37, casts as 9th level sorcerer. Note also that it has a Burrow speed.

In particular, this means that Stunning Fist is not going to work unless you invest heavily in wisdom. With a DC of 20 + wis mod (at level 20) against the dragon's save of 23+1d20...

(edit) This means that if you end your turn within 10 feet of the dragon, you are subject to its full attack routine of bite (14), claw (12), claw (12), wing (9), wing (9), tail (22), for an average total of 78 damage. Since its BAB is more than likely higher than your armor class, these will all hit. Plus, the dragon has Power Attack listed as a favored feat, which means it can, say, take -10 to hit, still hit pretty much automatically, and up the damage to 138 average.

Assuming 16 con, the monk has 164 hit points. It would seem that getting close to the dragon is not such a viable strategy.

[Talic]

Considering that a level 20 monk has a BAB of 15, that AC of 37 will be a tough nut to crack without at least a +10 in other bonuses... Quite attainable. Monks have high movement, so that can be a defense, maybe with spring attack? Unarmed strike is perhaps one of the only attack styles which benefits both from Weapon Finesse AND Power Attack.

Monks have:
Good saves
High number of attacks
High movement
Lots of immunities

If you can reliably get to melee, then perhaps something can be done. Bear in mind also, ToB maneuvers are ok to use, by non ToB characters.

WBL items can more than make up for some of the dragon's good stuff...

Things to think about:
Dealing with Fear.
Dealing with Breath Weapon.
Preventing Full Attacks.
Dealing with HP.

Now, the first two can be handled by a good cloak of resistance, as the monk's saves are already pretty stout.

Staying out of Full Attack range will deal with number 3...

How to get damage up, with 1 attack per round?

[Fenix_of_Doom]

How to get damage up, with 1 attack per round?

House rule flurry as a standard action?

[Talic]

House rule flurry as a standard action?

For two attacks, sounds reasonable. Not for Full Attack.

[Kurald Galain]

It would seem that the dragon can nullify the monk's speed through its Solid Fog ability, usable three times per day. Also, if you're going to play the Spring Attack game, note that the dragon's fly speed is higher than the monk's.

White dragons also prefer sudden assaults. They have decent stealth skills, are liable to ambush from under water or underground (burrow speed), and have enough sorcerer levels to take Greater Invisibility.

I believe that if the monk can "reliably get to melee", then so can the dragon - and the dragon easily outdamages the monk.

(edit) another nasty dragon strategy is to simply land on the monk, possibly after trapping him in a web or solid fog or something. This means the monk must make a DC 31 ref save or be pinned, and take an average of 24 automatic damage per round.

[MammonAzrael]

Staying out of full attack range will be probably trigger some AoO, might need to handle that.

Don't forget that the Monk gains SR at lv 13: 10+Class Level. a SR 30 neuters any offensive spells from the dragon.

A Large lv 20 Monk has base unarmed damage of 4d8, which is nice. How much is it to get +5 Greater Magic Fang Permanenced onto the Monk?

Where can I find how much gp you get for items?

A Ring of Energy Resistance(Cold) could be worth looking into, though the Monk does get Improved Evasion, and great saves.
Boots of the Winterlands can help counter the grease effect from Freezing Fog.
Ioun Stones can provide another small boost.
Manuel/Tome of X?
Cloak of Resistance. Amulet of Mighty Fists/Natural Armor/Wisdom (maybe combine them). Bracers of Armor. Yawn.

I'm assuming Vow of Poverty help also defeats the purpose of the challenge.

[Talic]

It would seem that the dragon can nullify the monk's speed through its Solid Fog ability, usable three times per day. Also, if you're going to play the Spring Attack game, note that the dragon's fly speed is higher than the monk's.

White dragons also prefer sudden assaults. They have decent stealth skills, are liable to ambush from under water or underground (burrow speed), and have enough sorcerer levels to take Greater Invisibility.

I believe that if the monk can "reliably get to melee", then so can the dragon - and the dragon easily outdamages the monk.

True, but the monk isn't trying to prevent all melee. Just charges and full attacks. Through some WBL items, I'm sure you can increase his survivability, and such. Since the att bonus of the dragon is ridiculous, perhaps things that offer miss chances? Blindsense doesn't negate concealment, after all.

You bring a valid point. The monk needs to boost damage. Ideas?

[Kurald Galain]

Don't forget that the Monk gains SR at lv 13: 10+Class Level. a SR 30 neuters any offensive spells from the dragon.

Except for conjuration effects, which don't allow spell resistance. The grease effect isn't what matters for solid fog - the lockdown is.

I don't think energy resistance is all that necessary, because a white dragon's breath weapon is only 10d6 damage (as opposed to 20d10 from his red cousin).

I don't think VOP defeats the purpose, really. It is commonly said to be not all that great, except for druids, warlocks and sorcerers. I don't have the BOED at hand, but it would seem it makes it difficult for you to e.g. fly or see invisible opponents - such as our flying invisible white dragon.

(edit) while miss chances sound like a good strategy, note that the dragon has Blindsense.

[Talic]

Staying out of full attack range will be probably trigger some AoO, might need to handle that.

Don't forget that the Monk gains SR at lv 13: 10+Class Level. a SR 30 neuters any offensive spells from the dragon.

A Large lv 20 Monk has base unarmed damage of 4d8, which is nice. How much is it to get +5 Greater Magic Fang Permanenced onto the Monk?

Where can I find how much gp you get for items?

A Ring of Energy Resistance(Cold) could be worth looking into, though the Monk does get Improved Evasion, and great saves.
Boots of the Winterlands can help counter the grease effect from Freezing Fog.
Ioun Stones can provide another small boost.
Manuel/Tome of X?
Cloak of Resistance. Amulet of Mighty Fists/Natural Armor/Wisdom (maybe combine them). Bracers of Armor. Yawn.

I'm assuming Vow of Poverty help also defeats the purpose of the challenge.

DMG has WBL guidelines. Cloak of Resistance +5 is pretty much a must, as it's dual purpose on the dragon. Ring of Free action fits, and protects against any attempt to stop the monk. Ring of Invisibility, perhaps, to grant at least a 50% concealment, when maneuvering between attacks? Perhaps something that doesn't dismiss itself every attack.

Vow of poverty wouldn't be too out of line, though your WBL goes to 0.

I wouldn't go too heavy into cold resistance, as the dragon's breath weapon isn't likely to be used (inefficient against single enemies compared to attacks, likely to save for 0 damage anyway, and 50% even if he doesn't).

As far as AoO goes, either Tumble (monk skill) or Spring Attack would work well.