Monks

[new1965]

If they all hit, that means your level 20 character is flanking something with an AC of about 12.

Were you being sarcastic?


Outside of the first attack. the monks attack bonuses at 20 lvl are equal to or better than the fighters and you get 1 more attack using flurry

fighter +20/+15/+10/+5
monk flurry of blows +15/+15/+15/+10/+5

The first shot has a 25% less chance to hit but the third 1 has a 50% greater chance to hit

[new1965]

Fighting a bunch of vampires. They're immune to stunning (not that it was very useful anyway). Fast healing negated most of the damage I did to it. Grappling it would have been ... unwise. Couldn't disarm it (it wasn't armed); couldn't trip it (my poor BAB); couldn't hurt it. Didn't have Holy on my unarmed strike yet. Flanking would have done no good, as they're immune to the rogue's sneak attack anwyay. I basically did full defense the entire combat. Not fun, at all.

Fighting a Dragon. High AC meant I couldn't hit it. Not trippable, not grapple-able, not disarm-able. Best I did was flank it and fight defensively. Again, not fun.

We happen to be fighting a bunch of undead now and since our DM decided that based on the rules a monks unarmed strikes could be permanently enchanted like any weapon, our monk has 1 energy type for each extremity
( flaming/electrical/cold/acid dont ask me how he eats or anything). Since Monks get their full attack even if their hands aren't free, he can get his full attacks in with with the most appropriate energy type. Hes running all over the place and things are currently eating acid and flaming damage on top of his unarmed damage of 2d8+ whatever his strength bonus is and his Armbands of might (hes level 12 but hes got a monk belt).

[Kurald Galain]

Ah, there we go again.

Thats the thing. the way i see the monk, it isn't a "speciality" class. Its a jack of all trades.

... and master of none.
Need to fight in melee? You can't do that very well; you should have played a barbarian, paladin, or druid.
Need to scout ahead? You can't do that very well either; you should have played a rogue, druid, or wizard.
Fighting spellcasters? That's just laughable, spellcasters will wipe the floor with you, using no-save no-SR spells.
Injured? Well, you can heal yourself for a bit, but this just means the enemies will ignore you while they take out the actual threats.

Its not the strongest class in any one role and it makes an almost completely ineffective "5th character"

The first shot has a 25% less chance to hit but the third 1 has a 50% greater chance to hit

Except that in actual combat, you don't get to make full attacks all that often. And except that less MADness really does make the fighter a better hitter.

[Kurald Galain]

We happen to be fighting a bunch of undead now and since our DM decided that based on the rules a monks unarmed strikes could be permanently enchanted like any weapon, our monk has 1 energy type for each extremity

Yes, exactly. The point is that the monk needs houseruling (like this) or DM fiat to be effective - you're making our point for us.

[Telonius]

Were you being sarcastic?


Outside of the first attack. the monks attack bonuses at 20 lvl are equal to or better than the fighters and you get 1 more attack using flurry

fighter +20/+15/+10/+5
monk flurry of blows +15/+15/+15/+10/+5

The first shot has a 25% less chance to hit but the third 1 has a 50% greater chance to hit

Well, let's work it out.

An average roll is 10.5; let's call that an 11. Now, depending on whether or not you have the Exalted feat that lets you use Wis instead of Str for attacks, you may have better or worse MAD. Let's figure about a 24 (all told) for whichever attacking stat you use, so +7. You're flanking, so +2.

11 (roll) +5 (to hit) + 7 (stat) + 2 (flank) = 25. (Maximum result 34, minimum result 15). You have a 50% or greater chance of hitting something with an AC of 24 or lower with your fifth attack. You are guaranteed a hit on anything other than a 1 for something whose AC is 15 or lower. Anything with AC of 34 or above, you need a 20 to hit it with your fifth attack.

Compare this to the sorts of creatures you will likely be facing at level 20.

CR 20 creatures:
Black Dragon Wyrm: AC 39, 459 HP
Ancient Brass Dragon: AC 38, 387 HP
Very Old Bronze Dragon: AC 37, 375 HP
Very Old Copper Dragon: AC 36, 362 HP
Balor: AC 35, 290 HP
Pit Fiend: AC 40, 225 HP
Old Red Dragon: AC 33, 378 HP
Old Silver Dragon: AC 35, 350HP
The Tarrasque: AC 35, 858 HP

You need a 20 to connect on the fifth attack for everything but the Red Dragon. You will not kill a single one of the monsters by HP damage (though they may fail their massive damage saves, except for Big T).

[new1965]

Yes, exactly. The point is that the monk needs houseruling (like this) or DM fiat to be effective - you're making our point for us.

Its actually not much of a house ruling... its just vague as hell in the PHB and needed the DM's ok

It says that a monks unarmed strikes can be treated as as a manufactured weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that improve weapons. The rally question was whether or not it would be dispelled permanently in an anti-magic field or just suppressed like a magic weapon

[horseboy]

I don't understand why Monks get 3/4 BAB. As a person who trains in unarmed combat, (and do it rigorously), I don't see why monks would be less likely to hit an opponent than a fighter or a barbarian would. I would think that Monks would be more likely to hit since so much of martial arts requires precise strikes to the body in order to trap, disarm, etc.

Oh yeah, because so much of sword fighting is swinging wildly, hoping someone walks into it.

If it weren't for Monk, what low-powered class would they post about? Samurai is a possibility, but its weaknesses are so obvious that there would be essentially no argument. So yes, I would say that the Monk fits its niche uniquely well.

The fighter, duh. He's next on the pecking order.

[new1965]

11 (roll) +5 (to hit) + 7 (stat) + 2 (flank) = 25. (Maximum result 34, minimum result 15). You have a 50% or greater chance of hitting something with an AC of 24 or lower with your fifth attack.

That was my point. you said the monk would have to flanking an AC of 12... and is why I asked if you were being sarcastic

[Telonius]

I'm afraid it is very much a houserule, and the rules are not vague on it. It is one of the big drawbacks of being a monk.

Craft Magic Arms And Armor [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 5th.

Benefit
You can create any magic weapon, armor, or shield whose prerequisites you meet. Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes one day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features. To enhance a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you must spend 1/25 of its features’ total price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this total price.

The weapon, armor, or shield to be enhanced must be a masterwork item that you provide. Its cost is not included in the above cost.

You can also mend a broken magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.

Masterwork Weapons
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.

You can’t add the masterwork quality to a weapon after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork weapon (see the Craft skill). The masterwork quality adds 300 gp to the cost of a normal weapon (or 6 gp to the cost of a single unit of ammunition). Adding the masterwork quality to a double weapon costs twice the normal increase (+600 gp).

Can a monk get her unarmed strike enhanced as a
magic weapon?

No. Even a magic gauntlet or spiked gauntlet isn’t the ideal
answer, since these aren’t listed as special monk weapons (and
therefore aren’t as versatile as unarmed strikes).
The amulet of mighty fists (Dungeon Master’s Guide, 246)
grants the wearer an enhancement bonus on unarmed and
natural weapon attacks, which would include the monk’s
unarmed strike.

[playswithfire]

You need a 20 to connect on the fifth attack for everything but the Red Dragon.

As does the fighter on his fourth, unless we're saying the fighter has better than 24 str, which i grant may be likely. Assuming even attack stats (let's assume monk has intuitive attack), then the difference in their capabilities (15/15/15/10/5 vs 20/15/10/5 boils down to the one attack at +20 vs the two attacks at +15

Using the AC 40 as a target and +7 to stat, the fighter has a 40 percent chance to do one hit for .4 hits on the differing attacks and the monk has a 2.25 percent chance of hitting twice and a 25.5 percent chance of hitting once for a total of .3 hits so the fighter gets .1 more hits on average per full attack than the monk in this situation; obviously varies with to hit stat and target AC

I like monks, but I realize they have issues. Just thought I'd chip in with some math

Also, scorpion kama = excellent

[Emperor Demonking]

Could a warforged have a masterwork fist?

[new1965]

Except that in actual combat, you don't get to make full attacks all that often. And except that less MADness really does make the fighter a better hitter.

Thats odd as our monk seems to get his full attacks in frequently.

Of course, he plays decoy a lot and stays 10 feet ahead of the enemy chasing him with his high movement. When he turns the corner , my barbarian with combat reflexes is waiting there in ambush with an AoO. Whatever was chasing the monk usually stops to face my barbarian since he did damage and the monk takes a 5ft step and unleashes his full attack

[horseboy]

As does the fighter on his fourth, unless we're saying the fighter has better than 24 str, which i grant may be likely. Assuming even attack stats (let's assume monk has intuitive attack), then the difference in their capabilities (15/15/15/10/5 vs 20/15/10/5 boils down to the one attack at +20 vs the two attacks at +15

Using the AC 40 as a target and +7 to stat, the fighter has a 40 percent chance to do one hit for .4 hits on the differing attacks and the monk has a 2.25 percent chance of hitting twice and a 25.5 percent chance of hitting once for a total of .3 hits so the fighter gets .1 more hits on average per full attack than the monk in this situation; obviously varies with to hit stat and target AC

I like monks, but I realize they have issues. Just thought I'd chip in with some math

Also, scorpion kama = excellent

This is also assuming, of course, that full attack is an option.

[Arbitrarity]

As does the fighter on his fourth, unless we're saying the fighter has better than 24 str, which i grant may be likely. Assuming even attack stats (let's assume monk has intuitive attack), then the difference in their capabilities (15/15/15/10/5 vs 20/15/10/5 boils down to the one attack at +20 vs the two attacks at +15

Greater than 24 strength at level 20? Easy. Elite array gets 26, assuming you boost STR and get a +6 item. 38 is plausible, though not probable. (18 base, 4 race, 5 level, 5 tome, 6 item)

[Telonius]

As does the fighter on his fourth, unless we're saying the fighter has better than 24 str, which i grant may be likely. Assuming even attack stats (let's assume monk has intuitive attack), then the difference in their capabilities (15/15/15/10/5 vs 20/15/10/5 boils down to the one attack at +20 vs the two attacks at +15

Using the AC 40 as a target and +7 to stat, the fighter has a 40 percent chance to do one hit for .4 hits on the differing attacks and the monk has a 2.25 percent chance of hitting twice and a 25.5 percent chance of hitting once for a total of .3 hits so the fighter gets .1 more hits on average per full attack than the monk in this situation; obviously varies with to hit stat and target AC

I like monks, but I realize they have issues. Just thought I'd chip in with some math

Also, scorpion kama = excellent

You should also figure in a +5 weapon to the fighter's total; by 20th level he's likely to have one. I'm not familiar with the Sidewinder Monk's abilities - does the sneak attack only apply to unarmed strikes, to all monk weapons, to all weapons? (Either way, it's a variant from Dragon Magazine rather than a core class that's pulling this off).

[playswithfire]

Greater than 24 strength at level 20? Easy. Elite array gets 26, assuming you boost STR and get a +6 item. 38 is plausible, though not probable. (18 base, 4 race, 5 level, 5 tome, 6 item)

And a monk can do the same with wisdom, I would think, though maybe not +4 from race. Anyway, I was just bored and wanted to do math

Personally, I'd like them to make a 3.5 (or I guess 4.0) Shiba Protector, as No Thought is great, but generally not allowed as 3.0. Swordsage (yeah, I like the maneuvers; probably like swordsage better than monk) / Shiba Protector with Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse = DEX and WIS to AC, attack and damage; good times (no kama though)

You should also figure in a +5 weapon to the fighter's total; by 20th level he's likely to have one.

And I'll make my scorpion kama +5 or get amulet of natural attacks +5 to keep the gap the same

Meh; at higher target ACs, the full BAB classes beat the monk more and more; that's a given (all other modifiers being equal)

[new1965]

I'm afraid it is very much a houserule, and the rules are not vague on it. It is one of the big drawbacks of being a monk.

You are definitely right and our monk is gonna be pissed

hmmm.... with a regular gauntlet, you are still considered unarmed. so would the monks unarmed strike bonus work with it?

[horseboy]

You are definitely right and our monk is gonna be pissed

hmmm.... with a regular gauntlet, you are still considered unarmed. so would the monks unarmed strike bonus work with it?

If they spend a feat gaining proficiency.

[new1965]

You should also figure in a +5 weapon to the fighter's total; by 20th level he's likely to have one. I'm not familiar with the Sidewinder Monk's abilities - does the sneak attack only apply to unarmed strikes, to all monk weapons, to all weapons? (Either way, it's a variant from Dragon Magazine rather than a core class that's pulling this off).

I honestly cant remember as its the DM's copy of dragon and Id rather not go strictly by the crib sheet on Crystal Keep but its PROBABLY at least monk weapons so you could add the +5 there as well.

And hey... its still a monk whether its core or not. If the topic was restricted to just core monks, id probably have a lot less to say in this thread.

[Thinker]

Thats odd as our monk seems to get his full attacks in frequently.

Of course, he plays decoy a lot and stays 10 feet ahead of the enemy chasing him with his high movement. When he turns the corner , my barbarian with combat reflexes is waiting there in ambush with an AoO. Whatever was chasing the monk usually stops to face my barbarian since he did damage and the monk takes a 5ft step and unleashes his full attack

So the monsters in your group are retarded and are pulled like an MMO? Wow, I guess we can see why they're not so bad in your games. Doing 38.5 damage per attack (including +5 enhancements and 20 strength) is still not impressive. Let's look at a barbarian: Str 37 [15 base + 2 racial + 5 levels + 6 item + 5 tome + 4 rage] is +13. Add 20 BAB, a +5 enhancement bonus, and +2 flanking. You get +40 to hit. He can power attack for a lot and still hit so he can deal plenty of damage per round, forcing massive damage saves and actually hurting the opponents.

How does your monk handle flying enemies, anyway?

I honestly cant remember as its the DM's copy of dragon and Id rather not go strictly by the crib sheet on Crystal Keep but its PROBABLY at least monk weapons so you could add the +5 there as well.

And hey... its still a monk whether its core or not. If the topic was restricted to just core monks, id probably have a lot less to say in this thread.

If its not core how is the monk still competing at anything? It is made of fail and suck.

[new1965]

If they spend a feat gaining proficiency.

I'm not too sure abut that as Im not talking about the spiked gauntlet...

listed on the weapon chart in the unarmed attack category along with unarmed strike is Gauntlet.

Sounds like it could be argued that Improved Unarmed Strike SHOULD cover it. And if it does, you could get it masterwork and enchanted and keep your unarmed strike bonus

[horseboy]

I'm not too sure abut that as Im not talking about the spiked gauntlet...

listed on the weapon chart in the unarmed attack category along with unarmed strike is Gauntlet.

Sounds like it could be argued that Improved Unarmed Strike SHOULD cover it. And if it does, you could get it masterwork and enchanted and keep your unarmed strike bonus

Monks are not automatically proficient with all simple weapons. He'd have to burn a feat to be proficient in gauntlet. It's in the FAQ.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I challenge -you- (all of you) to come up with examples of times you played a monk and didn't have fun because you were too underpowered. Specific examples don't prove anything, but neither does number-crunching and strategy generalizations, since they have little or nothing to do with how the game is played.

Well, I can't offer you exactly what you want, I've never played a monk myself, but I have been in a party with one once, we had lots of fun, but the monk died horribly.

[new1965]

So the monsters in your group are retarded and are pulled like an MMO? Wow, I guess we can see why they're not so bad in your games. Doing 38.5 damage per attack (including +5 enhancements and 20 strength) is still not impressive. Let's look at a barbarian: Str 37 [15 base + 2 racial + 5 levels + 6 item + 5 tome + 4 rage] is +13. Add 20 BAB, a +5 enhancement bonus, and +2 flanking. You get +40 to hit. He can power attack for a lot and still hit so he can deal plenty of damage per round, forcing massive damage saves and actually hurting the opponents.

How does your monk handle flying enemies, anyway?




If its not core how is the monk still competing at anything? It is made of fail and suck.

If most creatures in the game weren't stupid, the characters would be killed outright in most low to mid level campaigns. In real life a party of first level adventrues would walk into a goblin village and get piled on by the whole village at the same time.

The decoy tactic doesn't work on everything buts its good against zombies and stuff like that

All the number I've been quoting have been without racial benefits or magic items (except when i was stalking strictly about magic items and the monk of course). I could just as readily picked a race with a strength bonus, taken power attack and used and enchanted spear to boost the numbers and a level of Raging monk. but thats more number crunching than I am willing to do while im working..

Who is competing? Its a game and the purpose is to have fun, not compete. All Im saying than monks can be effective and (i cant believe im saying this) core isnt everything in some cases

BTW.. he uses his light crossbow for flying enemies

[Wordmiser]

The Monk does have a niche--It's obvioulsy intended to be the Mage-killer.

It has a problem, though--It sucks.

To fix it, I would second the "give it a Full Base Attack and turn the extra Flurry Attacks into a Swift Action which doesn't kill Power Attack" group, also adding Abundant Step as an at-will ability as a Standard Action at fifth level, Move action at tenth level and as a Swift Action at fifteenth level. Cut out the "no further actions this round" thing as well.

[Thinker]

All the number I've been quoting have been without racial benefits or magic items (except when i was stalking strictly about magic items and the monk of course). I could just as readily picked a race with a strength bonus, taken power attack and used and enchanted spear to boost the numbers and a level of Raging monk. but thats more number crunching than I am willing to do while im working..

Who is competing? Its a game and the purpose is to have fun, not compete. All Im saying than monks can be effective and (i cant believe im saying this) core isnt everything in some cases

BTW.. he uses his light crossbow for flying enemies

I didn't mean compete as in a direct competition with other players so much as a term for how does he stay viable? How does he contribute? You could take the spear and proficiency for it to help not suck, but then why not play something that gets those for free? If you're not using monk abilities then you're not comparing the monk. So you do 4 damage to flying enemies? Hold the phone! Monks are bad at everything they do whether you like it or not. With DM help they can contribute, but it requires stupid enemies or massive buffs that are against the spirit and words of the rules.

[new1965]

I didn't mean compete as in a direct competition with other players so much as a term for how does he stay viable? How does he contribute? You could take the spear and proficiency for it to help not suck, but then why not play something that gets those for free? If you're not using monk abilities then you're not comparing the monk. So you do 4 damage to flying enemies? Hold the phone! Monks are bad at everything they do whether you like it or not. With DM help they can contribute, but it requires stupid enemies or massive buffs that are against the spirit and words of the rules.

As I said in a previous post... the monk can get those for free and use it as a monk weapon to use flurry of blows, and channel their ki based abilities with Ki focus

[Thinker]

As I said in a previous post... the monk can get those for free and use it as a monk weapon to use flurry of blows, and channel their ki based abilities with Ki focus

The monk still doesn't have the BAB to spare Power Attacking for much, doesn't have the wisdom to make the ki based abilities effective, or the chance to full attack very often. I don't see why its difficult to grasp so I will stop trying to help. If you want to continue replying about this it will be with yourself.

[new1965]

Monks are not automatically proficient with all simple weapons. He'd have to burn a feat to be proficient in gauntlet. It's in the FAQ.

Well that makes zero sense as I doubt most people would say that a monk wearing gauntlets of ogre power couldn't use flurry of blows but it IS in the FAQ

I limits his "swiss army knife" preparedness somewhat but still doesnt keep him from being useful

[Talya]

Well that makes zero sense as I doubt most people would say that a monk wearing gauntlets of ogre power couldn't use flurry of blows

Gauntlets of Ogre Power are wondrous items, not weapons. They don't affect unarmed strike at all, apart from the strength bonus.