How smart is Int 10?

[Zeful]

I've been designing an adventure and have run into a couple of snags.

The Background:

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The PCs are hunting down a group mercenaries for the killing of a baron's daughter. They're supposed to capture a mercenary named Jedd and bring him in for questioning. They're defeating the mercenaries and are about to subdue Jedd when an arrow shoots out from the under brush and kills him. Investigating they find a masterwork shortbow and 49 arrows just left on the ground. This is the only calling card of a nigh-legendary assassin only called The Shade. This leads the PCs on sort of a wild goose chase because many mercenaries and assassins claim the title to simply get ahead. However a lead shows up when a powerful Baroness and her Master at Arms (dude in charge of mansion security) are found dead.
It turns out that the Real Shade was the Baroness's bastard child by an elven diplomat. Instead of killing the child she raised him to be a killing machine, training him in infiltration, stealth, and assassination. Ever since the age of 14 when he made his first kill he had been furthering his mother's interests. Then one day he killed her. No one knows why. At this point the PCs have three choices, 1)leave it alone and move on. 2) Capture/kill Shade for his ten years of assassination. 3)Befriend Shade and get a powerful ally.

The Issue:
Shade has a 10 Int but has been trained for 14 years on how to kill without leaving a trace. So would it be fair to the players if they incur Shade's wrath for him to use plans and strategies that would be more acceptable from a 15 int military tactician? (picking off the Wizard, CdGing sleeping party members etc.)

[MisterSaturnine]

Well, 10 is average intelligence. So I'd say yes, especially when that's what he's been trained since 14 to do. Plans and stuff have been etched into his memory, I'd think.

[Zeful]

I thought so but the intensive training could be interpreted by some to be a boost to intelligence, so I thought it was better to ask and get different opinions.

[herrhauptmann]

Totally in favor of your idea.
A 'normal' person might not be especially smart or dumb on average, but ask them a question regarding their interests or specialties (especially one they've been trained in) and their apparent intelligence goes through the roof.

On the other hand, ask that normal person a question on something in which they have no experience or interest, and their apparent intelligence will plummet.

Besides, 14 years of assassinations?? Man, thats a long time killing people. He better have gotten good at it by now.

[ZeroNumerous]

Uh.. Better question: Why does it matter?

As an NPC, Shades has exactly the INT you want him to have, so I'm failing to understand the problem.

[Roog]

So would it be fair to the players if they incur Shade's wrath for him to use plans and strategies that would be more acceptable from a 15 int military tactician? (picking off the Wizard, CdGing sleeping party members etc.)

Any tactic that the average player with years of experience at D&D could reasonably use, should be reasonable for the character.

[Zeful]

Well I like having concrete stats for important NPCs, so that I have a frame of reference if I need to know what the character should reasonably know without it being DM fiat.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Aside from the "unfairness" of killing the whole party while they sleep, I don't see a problem with those plans.

INT 10 is, as Mr Saturnine says, normal for humans. It's not dumb. An INT 10 person can easily work out that a wizard is a serious threat and needs to be isolated from the rest of the group. As for Coup de Grace on sleeping targets - that's the safest way to win a fight. Those sort of tactics aren't "smart", they're "not stupid".

Besides, one doesn't need to be really clever to work out a good plan - it could be down to insight and determination to think through every action, rather than raw intellect. I doubt most of my players (and myself) have higher than INT 13 or so.

To reflect the intensive training the assassin has had, you could maybe put some ranks into "Profession (Assassin)".

Just be careful that you don't go straight into TPK. The players won't call that fun - unless you have some really cool adventures in the afterlife for them.

[Fhaolan]

I've been designing an adventure and have run into a couple of snags.

The Issue:
Shade has a 10 Int but has been trained for 14 years on how to kill without leaving a trace. So would it be fair to the players if they incur Shade's wrath for him to use plans and strategies that would be more acceptable from a 15 int military tactician? (picking off the Wizard, CdGing sleeping party members etc.)

Okay, a character of average human intelligence, but has been through a grinding training process to produce the ultimate killing machine.

This means you're dealing with a lot of trained responses. Yes, he can come up with plans and strategies that would *seem* to be from a high-Int military tactician, but they'll be missing little details. That's because they come straight from his training, with less adaptability to the current situation than what the actual high-Int tactician would do. (Though he can modify some, because he does have average human intelligence.) Basically, he's running on trained reflexes and his memory of the tactics taught rather than his actual ability to plan.

[MisterSaturnine]

Aside from the "unfairness" of killing the whole party while they sleep, I don't see a problem with those plans.

INT 10 is, as Mr Saturnine says, normal for humans. It's not dumb. An INT 10 person can easily work out that a wizard is a serious threat and needs to be isolated from the rest of the group. As for Coup de Grace on sleeping targets - that's the safest way to win a fight. Those sort of tactics aren't "smart", they're "not stupid".

Besides, one doesn't need to be really clever to work out a good plan - it could be down to insight and determination to think through every action, rather than raw intellect. I doubt most of my players (and myself) have higher than INT 13 or so.

To reflect the intensive training the assassin has had, you could maybe put some ranks into "Profession (Assassin)".

Just be careful that you don't go straight into TPK. The players won't call that fun - unless you have some really cool adventures in the afterlife for them.

...can we pretend I said that? 'Cause I think Altair kinda hit the nail on the head there.

EDIT: Oh, also, Fhaolan has a really good point with the trained responses thing. Plus, it means that you can have a guy who has really good plans, ambushes the PCs, deals a lot of damage, gets 'em nice and scared, but won't TPK them. It's an enemy that has good plans, but if they come up with something creative, it's probably gonna have good results. Which is always fun.

[Zeful]

To reflect the intensive training the assassin has had, you could maybe put some ranks into "Profession (Assassin)".

Just be careful that you don't go straight into TPK. The players won't call that fun - unless you have some really cool adventures in the afterlife for them.

That's kind of the issue I'm stumped with, how should I mechanically represent a lifetime of killing people without leaving a trace (aside from his calling card)? Ranks in Knowledge (tactics)? Profession (Assassin)? Higher int?

Also Shade would arguably be the most dangerous character in the campaign setting due to his knowledge.

[Lemur]

To reflect the intensive training the assassin has had, you could maybe put some ranks into "Profession (Assassin)".

Or Knowledge (Murderizing) or Craft (Head on a Stick).

If you really do need to feel some mechanical justification though, a few skill ranks are exactly what you're looking for. People of ordinary, or even below average intelligence can and often do have specialized knowledge about something which can make them an expert in their field, even if they're not a super genius.

Profession (Assassin) or Knowledge (Tactics) can be used to represent this fairly well. If he's really top caliber, he may also have one or more points in Knowledge (Local) and/or (Nobility).

[The Extinguisher]

It's normal. Average. Sure he's not likely to get into Harvard, but he's not going to be stuck in fastfood all his life.

I remember a discussion with my DM on intelligence scores. I was comparing my score (a 16) to our parties wizard (an 18).
He basically summed up everything that is wrong with INT in one phrase. "Oh, poor you. I guess you'll be stuck with discovering the fundemental laws that govern the universe instead of discovering cold fusion. What a tragedy"

So yes, it's perfectly reasonable that a person with an INT of 10 would come up with a plan to kill everyone semi-efficiently, not including the training the character already has, which would make him a very dangerous person to be dealt with.

[Zeful]

I think my best bet would be two or three Ranks in knowledge (Tactics) and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), as he's been a slave to his mother since birth I don't think that ranks in Profession (Assassin) are relevant, he's never made money, nor his mother, so I don't think it applies to much.

[shadowdemon_lord]

I'd say max out ranks in knowledge (tactics), probably proffession (assasin) as this represents what he's been doing all this time. Probably skill focus knowlege (tactics) also. Also, depending on his level (which should be quite high) he might be better at making a plan and then making contingency plans, and then more contingency plans, and ways to deal with trip ups to his plans, etc. I mean 14 years is a long time, he must've seen a lot of different tricks, and been able to come up with ways to counter them all. His training must've been really comprehensive, and enough training makes certian things obvious not because you can think on your feet, but because you've dealt with that before.

On the other hand, maybe his mom was the true brains behind it. In which case he'd be good, really really good. Basically once he had a plan of how to kill you, better luck next time pal, cause this life is over. But maybe he's not so good at the creative side (setting the ambush, determining the idea place and time, etc) and has only what he's been able to generally pick up from his mothers plans that she laid out for him. Then he'd know some contingencies, but not to many. Honestly I think this deals with wisdom more then intelligence, was he wise enough to really get invovled in figuring out all the details of how he'd avoid the guards, how he'd know exactly where his target was, etc, or did he let mommy do it?

[JackMage666]

I don't know where you guys are from, but I live in the United States, and the "Average Intelligence" of a person is a frightening stat. I don't think he could fire a bow, let alone use military strategy. Maybe he could get a beer and open it with his teeth, but that's all the credit I'd give him.

[Zeful]

First different people have different definitions of Average jackMage666. I've had to deal with mostly 'gifted' people my entire life so my average is different from most peoples, which is why I'm asking.

Now on to the questions:

On the other hand, maybe his mom was the true brains behind it. In which case he'd be good, really really good. Basically once he had a plan of how to kill you, better luck next time pal, cause this life is over. But maybe he's not so good at the creative side (setting the ambush, determining the idea place and time, etc) and has only what he's been able to generally pick up from his mothers plans that she laid out for him. Then he'd know some contingencies, but not to many. Honestly I think this deals with wisdom more then intelligence, was he wise enough to really get invovled in figuring out all the details of how he'd avoid the guards, how he'd know exactly where his target was, etc, or did he let mommy do it?

The Master at Arms had the most contact with Shade, kind of like the guy briefs soldiers nowadays. He would give Shade the marks name, title, and then drop him off two or three miles away from the target. When Shade first entered the field the Master at Arms would guide him through simpler kills. But after The Shade became a legendary figure his mother took a more active role in the briefings. After a couple of years he needed less information and needed only a name and a description.

Does that answer your questions SDL?

[Talic]

Bear in mind, wolves have an int of 1 in D&D, but they are capable of tactics such as flanking, feinting, and team effort. They know that sleeping targets are better to go after than alert ones.

Int has little to do with battle tactics, unless you're getting into formations, layered defenses, and the like.

[Fixer]

Intelligence deals with one's ability to learn new things and quickly assimilate new information.

This fellow with the 10 INT doesn't have to have ranks in esoteric skills in order to be an effective assassin. He simply makes plans that don't require quick-thinking and follows them.

Now, when things do NOT go according to plan he is most likely to withdraw and make a new plan than attempt to 'run with it' and think up a new plan on the fly. He would know his limitations and quick-thinking isn't one of them. Recognizing a weakness is necessary for success, even as an assassin.

[Talic]

Intelligence deals with one's ability to learn new things and quickly assimilate new information.

This fellow with the 10 INT doesn't have to have ranks in esoteric skills in order to be an effective assassin. He simply makes plans that don't require quick-thinking and follows them.

Now, when things do NOT go according to plan he is most likely to withdraw and make a new plan than attempt to 'run with it' and think up a new plan on the fly. He would know his limitations and quick-thinking isn't one of them. Recognizing a weakness is necessary for success, even as an assassin.

Of course, with 14 years experience, he likely has a wealth of experience of different things that have gone wrong, and the steps he took to counter them.

Experience is an effective substitute for intellect, provided your experience covers that area.

[SilverClawShift]

Experience is an effective substitute for intellect, provided your experience covers that area.

Exactly. Remember that your behavior is not governed by a single stat. Your intelligence, your perceptiveness, your drive (personality, charisma), and what you realize that you are or are not capable of doing will all come into play.

Average INT means that you need a sheet of paper to work out mathematical equations, not that you can't learn mathematical concepts. It means you aren't actively trying to form logical conclusions until you've stopped and told yourself you need to.
It doesn't mean you're incapable of understanding or learning just about anything, it's just a measure of how naturally it might come to you and how rapidly you can adapt your mindset to include new information.
Someone with perfectly average intelligence could still become, say, an expert chef with 14 years of training and practice. They could become an architect. They could become a blacksmith.
It's really a question of what they sat down and actually learned how to DO.

So I would say a 10 INT creature with a half a lifetime of military and assassination training would be an incredibly capable killer. But if something deviated from their planned course of actions, they'd probably flat out dissapear for a length of time while trying to formulate a new plan.
If a hired killer thought your party didn't have a healer, but then on bringing one of you into negatives, found out that the fighter was actually a cleric who could heal the teamates allready 'killed'... well, a 10 INT creature might not immediately know what to do with that new peice of info, but they WOULD be smart enough to know it was time to bail out and come up with a new plan.

[Tormsskull]

I don't know where you guys are from, but I live in the United States, and the "Average Intelligence" of a person is a frightening stat.

I laughed a little bit, then noted your location, and laughed a lot more. I can totally understand where you are coming from.

Zeful, I'm going to sidestep your initial questions (as other posters have given plenty of good input on that matter) and address a different matter. The information you listed in "Background" reads like a static piece of information. This will happen, then this will happen, then this will happen.

Always allow for freedom and flexibility in your plans as the PCs will sometimes surprise you. Try not to get too caught up on the exact events that are going to transpire, and give yourself some time to contemplate other outcomes should the PCs change your plans.

Always give the PCs a chance to do the unexpected, or else it will seem less like a game and more like a choose-your-own-adventure book.

[de-trick]

isn't there a lose formula for IQ and int stat like add a 0 so a 10 would turn out to be a 100IQ. I believe I have a 106IQ(Could be higher or lower was a online test) and I'm in pre-calculus math and have a decent mark 70 I think (I'm on a holiday). remember that a 18 stat is very broken because a 18 stat is humanly not possible I believe even the greatest minds of us only have a 14INT maybe a 16INT at most.

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Now with this shade character and INT think of it like you and D&D, you being shade and D&D assassinating. Core was very hard to learn at first and needed help to learn it. Then once you got a little experience and got comfortable with it a new book was introduced say a complete book. took a little time to master it but not as much as before. Then after that a setting book and you get that first read. Same goes with assassinating you said he was trained by the man-at-arms and baroness that would be the core took the longest to learn. Then he only needed less information to us and using D&D complete books. Then only a name and description would be the setting.

[Telonius]

This isn't really an issue of a high or low INT score. Intelligence is (among other things) a measure of how quickly you can pick up on things. Planning an assassination would probably be more of a Profession (Assassin) thing. (Actually carrying out would probably be based on actions within a round). Profession is a Wisdom-based skill, not an Intelligence-based skill. I think that gets at the root of the problem. Shade knows lots about killing people, not because he's smarter than anybody else, but because he's had 14 years of training and experience. That's more like Wisdom than Intelligence.

[KoDT69]

I posted this in another skill thread, but really applicable here:

In my games, I handle trade skills like Craft and Profession differently than RAW. Killing monsters and solving riddles will never allow these skills to get any better. I have it set up normal at character creation for 1st level, then they can gain Academic bonuses for time spent in apprenticeship after 1st level and/or Experience bonuses +1 per year of active skill use. I feel this much better explains why a master blacksmith can forge dragonscale armor and have 8hp. 20th level commoners are retarded. a 0 level guy working diligently at his craft for 30 years makes more sense to me that he would be better for the job. 30 years experience trumps 4 points of INT any day. Just because you can figure out A WAY, doesn't mean you automatically know THE BEST WAY to get the job done.

OK so for the assassin guy, 14 years experience by my rules would gain a +14 Experience modifier, we'll be modest and say he got the equivalent of an Associate's Degree in the field (4 very full time semesters IRL) for a +4 Academic bonus from time under his mentor, and his initial 4 ranks at 1st level that any class is entitled to. Assuming also a 10 WIS he would still have a total Profession (Assassin) modifier of +22. That's a pretty significant bonus on most levels (you didn't mention what level the PC's are in this scenario).

[Craig1f]

My opinion is that IQ = INT * 10.

This would put the smartest living tested human IRL at INT 20.

Mensa has set the minimum bar at between 132 and 148 (depending on the test). I think 140 is generally considered genius.

[Xyk]

int 10 is 100IQ. anybody who has been trained as a silent killer for 14 years (which is a ridiculously long time) is gonna know to kill them while they sleep because if it gets to open combat every master assassin knows to run. If he did take the time to kill one of them it would be a wizard. He would probably set an ambush soon after.

He probably wouldn't be able to do much math for you but if you ask him for a list of ways to kill someone, he'd know about every one.

[Riffington]

Any tactic that the average player with years of experience at D&D could reasonably use, should be reasonable for the character.

This. Think of the people on this board. They are capable of using the internet and playing D&D, therefore have an Int of 8+. Intelligence is normally distributed. So that suggests*: 75% of the people on this board probably have Int between 8 and 12. 20% have Int between 12 and 14. 5% have Int above 14.

So any tactic you can explain on this board and not get a whole bunch of "wtf mate?", this character understands better than you do.

*Yes, I see the possible flaw in the above reasoning, but I don't believe it skews the results much in either direction.

[Tengu]

My opinion is that IQ = INT * 10.

This would put the smartest living tested human IRL at INT 20.

Mensa has set the minimum bar at between 132 and 148 (depending on the test). I think 140 is generally considered genius.

I don't think if that works that way. Do all the tactical feats like Feint require 130 IQ? You have to be cunning to use them efficiently, sure, but not close to being a genius!

I think there's no easy conversion between DND's intelligence and IQ. Especially since IQ doesn't increase as you age or get more experienced, and intelligence does.

[Yahzi]

To reflect the intensive training the assassin has had, you could maybe put some ranks into "Profession (Assassin)".

Exactly. And then let him roll against his skill to come up with killer plans.