Old WoD Trivia question

[The_Shaman]

Hi, I was looking through some old WoD books I borrowed from a friend, and I found references to a Cappadocian bloodline called the Lamia. I've found the clan quite interesting, so I wanted to know more about this offshoot... Can anyone help me by saying more about it and where I can find additional stuff about them?

So far I've found some snippets about them that imply that the bloodline was fully or mostly female, tended to have a rather martial bent, and supposedly many of its member paid homage to Lilith... The latter struck me as quite odd given their loyalty to the Cappadocians. Also, is there anything that suggests that some of their members might have survived the Giovanni purge?

[ErrantX]

Oh the Lamia...

Anyhoo, yeah, they all died in the Giovanni purge. They were an interesting sect of all female vamps. They had a horribly infectious bite, the Bite of Lilith or some such thing. It gave folks diseases and such, nasty stuff. They were kind of like a special group of vamps that protected the Cap's who were important.

You'll find more information on them in the Dark Ages Companion, I believe that was the sourcebook it was in. Same book that had the Salubri and the Baali as well, if I'm not terribly mistaken.

-X

[Closet_Skeleton]

I only know about the original mythological Greek Lamia, not these White Wolf rehashes.

Mythological lamia are basically female vampires except they sometimes have a snake's tail instead of legs. They're also almost indestinguishable from Lilim, which are the children of Lilith, which is probably what the White Wolf writers are referencing. They're closer to succubi than they are to lilim though, but Lilith is sometimes associated with the serpent in the garden of Eden so lilim and lamia can sometimes share snake associations. Lilith however is a foreign mythological feature later adopted by Hebrews so she wasn't originally intended to be the serpent. The garden of Eden serpent is just an explanation of why snakes have no legs and hate people. But this if you're talking about the game where Cain became a vampire (as opposed to being marked by god out of pity) then you don't care about the original intent of Jewish myth writers.

[Clementx]

Revelations of the Dark Mother also has a short section detailing the torture of a Lamia Bahari (devotee of Lilith). If you want to play up the Lilith connection, or just want really nice heresy and source material, dig up that book.

[Mortanious]

The Lamia are detailed in the Dark Ages Companion, if I recall clan disciplines were Potence, Deimos, and Mortis. Clan weakness was they passed a disease to anyone they fed off of, stamina roll difficulty 8 for males (6 for females) to avoid getting infected. The disease was a black plague-like illness. the founder of the bloodline was embraced by Lazarus and was killed defending the Cappadocians in the Giovonni purge, along with most of the bloodline. The last of the bloodline was killed off by a Camarilla bloodhunt in the 1700s, as stated in the bloodline future in the Dark Ages Companion.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Off-topic curiosity from a non-Vampire player, but how does Lilith figure into the Masquerade mythos? I know she comes from Sumerian mythology and later Talmudic writings in real life, but what does she have to do with vamps?

EDIT: And according to Wikipedia, shows up in a lot of other places.

[CthulhuM]

She was involved in a some versions of the legends about the Vampires' origin, always connected to Cain's (Cain being the mythical first vampire, according to almost all versions of the story) early years as a vamp, though in varying capacities. I think the most common was that Lilith either taught Cain how to tap into the magic inherent in his blood (i.e. use disciplines), or actually imbued it with some of her own power.

The two of them had a falling out at some point (one of the apocalypse campaigns actually involved Lilith's long-running plot to destroy Cain and all of his offspring), so for most vamps worshiping Lilith would be fairly heretical. Then again, for most vampires in the modern setting, worshiping Cain would also be heretical.

[The_Shaman]

Off-topic curiosity from a non-Vampire player, but how does Lilith figure into the Masquerade mythos?

Depends on which mythos you mean. As far as I know, the "general" one has her as Caine's first tutor since he fled to the lands of Nod, around which time he spurned the angels' offers of reconciliation, and was cursed with what since became typical vampiric weaknesses (inability to taste food/drink, sunlight, and fire). It's believed that they had a failing out later - however, this is the perspective given in the Book of Nod, hence Caine's view of the entire affair. Anyway, Lilith features more in some sourcebooks and is even given her own Gehenna scenario when she decides to get some payback from her former companion and his entire get.

[ZeroNumerous]

Off-topic curiosity from a non-Vampire player, but how does Lilith figure into the Masquerade mythos?

For a non-Vampire?

Mage: She eats you.

Werewolf: She kills you then eats your corpse.

Mortal: She eats you.

Changeling: She eats your soul.

Wraith: She eats your dead soul.

[shaggz076]

Actually if you follow the WoD books Lilith was (after their falling out) killed by Caine. You can also find an interesting little snippet of this in the video game Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. In the art gallery there are 4 paintings detailing Lilith and Caine's relationship.

As for tha Lamia question, the books do say that they are all dead but then again they say that the Caps are too and yet in the sabbat guide they have returned under the name Harbinger of Skulls (you have to know a lot about VTM to catch this link)

This also bring up a god question here, I have asked int the Other games list and got no response. Are there any players of the WoD set near Sarnia Ontario? I am trying to get a game up and running

[The_Shaman]

Well, I haven't found anything definitive on whether all Cappadocians are dead... The Giovanni would like to think so (damn it, why didn't those church mages wipe them out early enough?), but iirc Clanbook Cappadocian mentions that a few may well survive in modern nights. I'm pretty sure that there are surviving offshoots - and I'd say the Harbingers and the Samedi certainly exhibit some traits of Cappadocius' blood - so I'd certainly like to believe that some few Graverobbers might have been able to sleep through the worst of the persecutions or just stay a few steps ahead of the necromancers.

It might be kind of wishful thinking, but old bloodlines are not that easy to extinguish in the World of Darkness. Heck, a few Salubri managed to evade the much better organized and connected Tremere, so it shouldn't be much of a surprise. As for Lilith, where does it say that she was killed?

[Xanos]

Well, I haven't found anything definitive on whether all Cappadocians are dead... The Giovanni would like to think so (damn it, why didn't those church mages wipe them out early enough?), but iirc Clanbook Cappadocian mentions that a few may well survive in modern nights. I'm pretty sure that there are surviving offshoots - and I'd say the Harbingers and the Samedi certainly exhibit some traits of Cappadocius' blood - so I'd certainly like to believe that some few Graverobbers might have been able to sleep through the worst of the persecutions or just stay a few steps ahead of the necromancers.

It might be kind of wishful thinking, but old bloodlines are not that easy to extinguish in the World of Darkness. Heck, a few Salubri managed to evade the much better organized and connected Tremere, so it shouldn't be much of a surprise. As for Lilith, where does it say that she was killed?

I'm pretty sure there are some Cappadocians living in the waters of Venice. I can't exactly remember where I read it, though.

[LongVin]

In Clanbook Giovanni they talk about the Vampires in the waters of Venice that they feed with the blood of Young Giovanni.

[The_Shaman]

Cappadocians in Venice? That I have to see to believe. Heck, the Giovanni rule over Venice is supposedly much more complete than any Fiend's power over his own freaking demesne!

Well, it would be one hell of an application of "Hiding in Plain Sight" principle, but it sounds much too weird. I'd expect them to be in places where the Giovanni can't do much about them even if they do find out about them, not where they can just call on pappy and the gang and wipe them out for one evening.

[comicshorse]

The one's hanging out underwater in Venice are Cappadochian's in the same way Augustus Giovanni is a Cappadochian (i.e) they were embraced before the Giovanni purged the rest of the Clan and so were called Cappadochians.
It's made clear the Giovanni are well aware of them and I think its pretty certtain they are loyal to the new Clan head no matter what their origins were.
This is all from the Giovanni Clan book btw.
As for Cappodochian survivours. The Harbingers of Skulls seem pretty definitely to be the highly pissed off remnants of the Cappodochians. And the Giovanni clan book suggests Lazarus one of Cappadochus's chulder is still kicking around.
As far as I'm aware no book even hints any Lamia survived. Even if the Giovanni didn't get them their status as walking disease carriers would mean every other sane Kindred would want rid of them once the Cappadochians protection had been removed

[The_Shaman]

Yep, the Harbingers seem to be related to the old clan, certianly, but they are also somewhat different. Clan weaknesses shouldn't change easily, even when the change is arguably not that big.

[The_Shaman]

Yep, the Harbingers seem to be related to the old clan, certianly, but they are also somewhat different. Clan weaknesses shouldn't change easily, even when the change is arguably not that big.

Anyway, I can't find the book that has the Lamia. What was that Deimos discipline of theirs about, anyway?

[bignate]

the lamia are printed in the dark age players guid i believe. i have it but not with me.

[wormwood]

As for Cappodochian survivours. The Harbingers of Skulls seem pretty definitely to be the highly pissed off remnants of the Cappodochians.

The only thing I ever read about the Harbinger explicitly stated that they WERE the pissed off Cappadocian survivors. I don't recall what book it was in, though, so take it or leave it.

[Fax Celestis]

The rest of the surviving Cappadocians are the Samedi.

[TheElfLord]

In Vampire the Dark ages (Second Ed), Lamia are covered in the Dark Ages Companion.

In Dark Ages: Vampire (Revised) they are mentioned in the Dark Ages storyteller's companion and the Player's Guide to the High Clans.

While there is nothing specific that states that any Lamia survied, it would be easy enough to let one slip through the cracks.

[The_Shaman]

The rest of the surviving Cappadocians are the Samedi.

Hmm, do you know why these survivor groups both look as bad as Nosferatus?

[comicshorse]

In the case of the Samedi I think its because they are an off-shoot of the Nosferatu. As I remember White Wolf hinted for ages that the Samedi were the Cappadochian remnants but in the end brought in the Harbringers of Skulls as the Cappadochian survivors.
I think the Harbringers looked that way because of centuries of exiles in the deadlands where the constant exposure to that energy warped thier form.
As for the Lamia's power all I remember is it was to do with was the harnessing of the vaious biles that medieval physicians thought existed in the body. The 3rd level power involved breathing out a cloud of black gas, any kindred caught in it had to make a willpower roll or collapse in a temporary torpor. I rtemeber this one because a Lamia nailed me and a Nosferatu with it with one shot.

[The_Shaman]

Yeah, I found out more about the Lamia. Thanks all, it looks like the Witches are a fun bunch. They are quite the interesting group, too - very strongly pagan despite the links Cappadocians often have to religion, and quite devoted to the Dark Mother. I was actually surprised at their loyalty to the main clan, given what the Lilin faith actually says about Cappadocius' role in the destruction of the Second Garden.

Also, I can't help but wonder just what Lamia said to Lazarus to make him run like a, sorry for the bad joke, little girl. It ain't easy scaring the hell out of a Cappo methuselah, after all.

[Mojo_Rat]

My understanding with regards to the Capadocians is there was a suggestion (i forget which book) that the clans weakness was getting worse. I believe some rare capadocians as far as the middle ages went were more corpse like.

The Appearance of the Harbringer of Souls and the Sahmdei(sp?) are both potential outcomes of this worsening curse.

[The_Shaman]

I don't know where you have it from, although it could work... for some clans, at least. IIRC the only place that mentions clan weaknesses becoming more pronounced - or just more - was the Lilith-centered Gehenna scenario.