Taking Prisoners

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm putting my players up against a slavers caravan. I remember once reading something about mancatchers or some other kind of polearm that is good for grappling. Does anybody know where I can find the info on it?

Also, if anyone has any tips on capturing the PCs alive, feel free to chime in.

The PCs are at level 5. The party consists of a Rogue, Swashbuckler, Monk, Fighter (longbow specialist), Cleric (tank), Wizard (necromancer), and Psion (telepath). Right now I thought using a combination of nets and mancatchers could work out, plus ranged poison attacks to cause sleep or paralysis, and maybe adding in some kind of alchemical items to round it off. (I'm sure there's some alchemical item that would help, but I haven't looked into it yet.)

It's not going to be an ambush, but the slavers will naturally be ready to do their thing as soon as they and the PCs notice each other. Oh yeah, it's not my intention to actually capture the PCs, but I want the slavers to do their best. Any suggestions?

[Jack_Simth]

Nets (Entanglement), Whips (Trip, Disarm), and assorted Pole weapons that do similar things.
Whips, saps, or other weapons that deal nonlethal damage (including magic weapons with the Merciful enchantment, if you want to throw that kind of cash around).
Grappling.
Oddly, Necromancy spells are some of the best for the "bring them back alive" scenario.
Enchantment(Compulsion) spells, such as Dominate Person or Command.

[Doresain]

drow knock out posion

[Jack_Simth]

drow knock out posion

Most poisons in D&D are useful for taking prisoners, actually - the only ones that aren't are those that deal Con damage - other forms of ability damage don't kill.

[Hallavast]

Most poisons in D&D are useful for taking prisoners, actually - the only ones that aren't are those that deal Con damage - other forms of ability damage don't kill.

True, but Drow poison takes fewer doses (usually).

And the mancatcher is from 2nd edition. Weird weapon. It was like a pair of giant chopsticks chained together with clampy bits at the end...

[Glyphic]

I'd just like to throw out that the head of the slavers could be a Sorcerer or Beguiler who specializes in Whelm spells >.>

[TheLogman]

There are two of such weapons in the Book of Exalted Deeds. The first is the Entangling Pole, which allows you to catch things by their clothing from up to 10 feet away, without an attack of opportunity for grappling, and even at a +4 bonus. You must, however, make a melee touch attack to initiate the grapple

The second is the Grasping Pole, which can grapple at 10 feet with no attack of opportunity as a free action. Any person that has been grappled in such a way can be brought to the ground with a trip attack.

EDIT: Dealing Subdual damage via saps and whatnot is also effective. Finally, spells like Hold Person, Slow, Blindness/Deafness and other save vs. bad stuff spells can be easily used to subdue a party.

[KillianHawkeye]

Wow, lot's of quick responses! These slavers are going to be mostly mundane classes, although they will of course have some magical gear. They probably won't have more than 1 or 2 spellcasters in the group, so their tactics would have to depend on incapacatating the PCs quickly or doing things the PCs don't expect.

And the mancatcher is from 2nd edition. Weird weapon. It was like a pair of giant chopsticks chained together with clampy bits at the end...

Hmm... I'm almost positive I read about a weapon like this in 3E (maybe in 3.0). I already looked in Arms & Equipment and Sword & Fist with no luck. Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me?

There are two of such weapons in the Book of Exalted Deeds. The first is the Entangling Pole, which allows you to catch things by their clothing from up to 10 feet away, without an attack of opportunity for grappling, and even at a +4 bonus. You must, however, make a melee touch attack to initiate the grapple

The second is the Grasping Pole, which can grapple at 10 feet with no attack of opportunity as a free action. Any person that has been grappled in such a way can be brought to the ground with a trip attack.

EDIT: Dealing Subdual damage via saps and whatnot is also effective. Finally, spells like Hold Person, Slow, Blindness/Deafness and other save vs. bad stuff spells can be easily used to subdue a party.

Maybe that's what I'm thinking of. I'll have to check, though, because BoED is not something I've looked at more than a couple times. And unfortunately, I think I've already used up all the Blindness/Deafness that my players are willing to put up with. Ray of Enfeeblement would probably work great, though.

[hylian chozo]

If you want alchemical items the tanglefoot bag is the best for that. I also suggest a smokestick and thunderstone if you want to disorient them first. I admit that this is blindness/deafness but at least it's not permanent right?

[Arutema]

Hmm... I'm almost positive I read about a weapon like this in 3E (maybe in 3.0). I already looked in Arms & Equipment and Sword & Fist with no luck. Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me?

It's in Complete Warrior.

[Corlis]

Maybe also have a wizard running around with Subdual Substituted Fireballs as well?

[KillianHawkeye]

It's in Complete Warrior.

Yes, that's the one! Thanks!

So far my plan of attack is to have archers fire sleep arrows or arrows with blue whinnis poison while the rest throw tanglefoot bags and flash pellets and the sorcerer opens up with ray of enfeeblement. Then they'll move in with the nets and mancatchers to try and bring the PCs to ground.

[Khanderas]

If you got sorcerors among the slavers, why not the Sleep spell ?
Sure bit low on PC's but on NPC's (something that is what the slavers expect) it should work fine.

[hewhosaysfish]

There are two of such weapons in the Book of Exalted Deeds. The first is the Entangling Pole, which allows you to catch things by their clothing from up to 10 feet away, without an attack of opportunity for grappling, and even at a +4 bonus. You must, however, make a melee touch attack to initiate the grapple.

How does it work against things without clothing, like Owlbears or the streaking minstrel?

[Funkyodor]

I really think that slavers would be reluctant to use expendables and would think about profit first. They would favor items that can be re-used. Bane Saps, Brilliant Energy Nets (wow that one just came to me and sounds like an awesome but expensive option), Bane & Merciful Crossbows, and Maybe a couple of expendables for that one very prized catch they don't want to risk putting a mark on (wink, wink). Sorcs using spells would be good, but probably would want to have his lackeys do most of the work like a good corrupt spell caster.

[Narmoth]

In 2nd ed, there's the bolas, a throwing weapon that trips the victim.
I would expect the slavers to take commoners as slaves and kill any more serious opponent, especially spellcasters and mid-level enemies rather than try to capture them, and would expect them to have a lot of lethal weapons as well as the nonlethal cathcing equipment.

[Subotei]

I don't think anyone's mentioned Web yet - always good for locking people down or cutting off their escape.

[Zenos]

I'm putting my players up against a slavers caravan. I remember once reading something about mancatchers or some other kind of polearm that is good for grappling. Does anybody know where I can find the info on it?

Also, if anyone has any tips on capturing the PCs alive, feel free to chime in.

The PCs are at level 5. The party consists of a Rogue, Swashbuckler, Monk, Fighter (longbow specialist), Cleric (tank), Wizard (necromancer), and Psion (telepath). Right now I thought using a combination of nets and mancatchers could work out, plus ranged poison attacks to cause sleep or paralysis, and maybe adding in some kind of alchemical items to round it off. (I'm sure there's some alchemical item that would help, but I haven't looked into it yet.)

It's not going to be an ambush, but the slavers will naturally be ready to do their thing as soon as they and the PCs notice each other. Oh yeah, it's not my intention to actually capture the PCs, but I want the slavers to do their best. Any suggestions?

I think there was one in Complete Adventurer. If not, it was in the Complete Warrior.

[Person_Man]

I would actually avoid using poison for this particular encounter. Poison is really expensive. Why would slavers waste money on it, when they can just beat the tar out of people using saps and similar weapons? Also, as a DM I've found that Paralyzation and Sleep poisons are a bad idea. If the PC fails their Save, they are totally screwed. If they make their Save, nothing happens. Instead, I prefer to use poisons that deal ability damage against them (anything but Con) so that they are slowly incapacitated without being killed, and without losing the battle just because they screwed up on on Save roll.

I'd go with lots of weak enemies using subdual damage. For extra fun, have the slavers stand away from combat with bolas and nets (and lethal sheathed weapons), forcing a mass of slaves (with their feet chained so that they can only move at half speed, and can't Charge) armed with saps to attack and capture the PCs. That way, the PCs will have to choose between attacking and potentially harming innocent slaves, or trying to run around all of them (potentially provoking AoO) in order to take out the slavers.

[KillianHawkeye]

I really think that slavers would be reluctant to use expendables and would think about profit first. They would favor items that can be re-used. Bane Saps, Brilliant Energy Nets (wow that one just came to me and sounds like an awesome but expensive option), Bane & Merciful Crossbows, and Maybe a couple of expendables for that one very prized catch they don't want to risk putting a mark on (wink, wink). Sorcs using spells would be good, but probably would want to have his lackeys do most of the work like a good corrupt spell caster.

The problem with this approach is the cost of those kinds of magic items is much higher (getting into the several thousands of gp range). The leader of the slavers might have ONE of those, or something like it, but they all won't be able to. (It would completely break their NPC wealth level.) In contrast, sleep arrows only cost 132 gp each and blue whinnis poison only costs 120 gp per dose, and they really only need to have a few of these items.

I would actually avoid using poison for this particular encounter. Poison is really expensive. Why would slavers waste money on it, when they can just beat the tar out of people using saps and similar weapons? Also, as a DM I've found that Paralyzation and Sleep poisons are a bad idea. If the PC fails their Save, they are totally screwed. If they make their Save, nothing happens. Instead, I prefer to use poisons that deal ability damage against them (anything but Con) so that they are slowly incapacitated without being killed, and without losing the battle just because they screwed up on on Save roll.

Saps and such would work fine against commoners, but it should be immediately obvious that the PCs are going to be more challenging. I see what you're saying about the sleep/paralyzation, though. Maybe I'll switch to large scorpion venom. It has a higher save DC, does pretty good Strength damage, and it's essentially free if you can find large enough scorpions. It'd also make it harder for the prisoners to escape once captured, and allows me to let the spellcaster do something else with his time. And the reason I'm not considering using spells like web or entangle is mostly because I wanted the slavers to move in with nets and catch-poles and didn't want to risk them getting in the area. It might work to put up a web to block the PCs' retreat, though. Unfortunately, sleep would not work (the PCs are too high of level), and even the better version could only affect 2 of them.

I'd go with lots of weak enemies using subdual damage. For extra fun, have the slavers stand away from combat with bolas and nets (and lethal sheathed weapons), forcing a mass of slaves (with their feet chained so that they can only move at half speed, and can't Charge) armed with saps to attack and capture the PCs. That way, the PCs will have to choose between attacking and potentially harming innocent slaves, or trying to run around all of them (potentially provoking AoO) in order to take out the slavers.

I'm not really sure how effective a bunch of chained up slaves would be at capturing other slaves. I don't think the slavers would be very smart to arm and mobilize a mob of people whose main targets to attack would be the slavers themselves.

@ Narmoth: Thanks for reminding me about the bolas. They have them in 3.5 as well, and I think I'll add them to my plans. They're probably exotic weapons, though.

I suppose its worth mentioning that they're capturing people in order to make sacrifices to Tiamat. I just called them "slavers" before because I didn't know another word to clearly describe the intent of the encounter.

Thanks for all the help so far! And I'm still open to other suggestions or alternative strategies as well.

[LibraryOgre]

Brilliant Energy is a useless enchantment on a net. It ignores armor. So does a net.

[Lycar]

Unfortunately, sleep would not work (the PCs are too high of level), and even the better version could only affect 2 of them.

Yes, but your villainious sorceror won't know this until he tries it. And against low level (or rather, low hit-dice) threats, it is an excellent spell.

So, if he does know the sleep spell, it really ought to be his first choice, especially if the PCs do him the favour of approaching in 'fireball' formation.

Not having him try this is kinda metagaming. After all, the slavers don't know if the people attacking them are 1st level or 4th or 20th.

And once he realizes that the sleep spell didn't effect the PCs at all, then he will know that it is time to bring on the expensive expendables which they saved for a rainy day... like being attacked by adventurers.

Also you don't want to have all that expensive stuff fall into the greedy hands of your PCs, now do you.

Lycar

[daggaz]

Hmm.... I coulda swore the Kuo-toa had some nifty pincer staff weapon which could be used to initiate a grapple as well as doing regular lethal damage at reach.

Yeah... they did. Two handed exotic 1d10 bludgeoning 20/x2, if you hit a small or medium sized creature, it starts a free grapple check and does another 1d10 automatic each round the creature is held.

[NaYoN]

There's a PrC called Justiciar in complete warrior that specializes in taking prisoners, it has many abilities for knocking out and catching people.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yes, but your villainious sorceror won't know this until he tries it. And against low level (or rather, low hit-dice) threats, it is an excellent spell.

So, if he does know the sleep spell, it really ought to be his first choice, especially if the PCs do him the favour of approaching in 'fireball' formation.

Not having him try this is kinda metagaming. After all, the slavers don't know if the people attacking them are 1st level or 4th or 20th.

And once he realizes that the sleep spell didn't effect the PCs at all, then he will know that it is time to bring on the expensive expendables which they saved for a rainy day... like being attacked by adventurers.

I'm not too sure about this. I suppose it's possible, but I kinda figured that you'd be able to tell the difference between a group of low level nobodies and an eclectic group of well-equipped adventurers. Since low level guys tend to all look alike (within the group, i.e. wearing the same uniform, etc.), then it stands to reason that the more unique each member of a group looks, the more likely that they are experienced adventurers.

Plus I figure the smartest thing to do would be to avoid using a spell with such limitations if you feel like the chance of it being effective isn't very high.

Also you don't want to have all that expensive stuff fall into the greedy hands of your PCs, now do you.

Well, that WAS one of my motives for making a strategy that involved cheap, expendable items rather than expensive, permanent magic items.

[Malachite]

Disarming, tripping and beating into unconsciousness sounds like a good strategy. Nets are good flavoursome weapons, as would clubs/saps.

Also, depending on how high a level the slavers are, remember that an assassin's death attack can also cause paralyzation rather than death. I made a monk/assassin bounty hunter NPC based on this once.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yes, I am aware of the paralyzation version of death attack. But even if the enemies were high enough level (probably won't be), I don't think its a situation that I want them to waste 3 rounds studying the PCs in order to accomplish it.

Besides, I have an Assassin encounter in mind to use on the PCs later, so I wouldn't want them to face a weaker one right now. It'd spoil the surprise!

[Lycar]

I'm not too sure about this. I suppose it's possible, but I kinda figured that you'd be able to tell the difference between a group of low level nobodies and an eclectic group of well-equipped adventurers. Since low level guys tend to all look alike (within the group, i.e. wearing the same uniform, etc.), then it stands to reason that the more unique each member of a group looks, the more likely that they are experienced adventurers.

Plus I figure the smartest thing to do would be to avoid using a spell with such limitations if you feel like the chance of it being effective isn't very high.

Question: How similar is the gear of even a 1st lv. adventuring group ? How are the slavers going to tell at a glance, if they are experienced or not ? Full plate is one indication of being more then freshlings, because even non-magical full plate is hideously expensive. Swords or staffs visibly crackling with arcane energy of any type are a dead giveaway of course.

So, if your party sports some obviously powerful items, it is fair to assume that the enemy will place caution before miserlines.

If they don't, however, then sleep ought to be a viable option in the minds of the NPCs.

Sure, you have to go a bit before gear becomes obviously powerful. Until it's burning, a magic sword could as well be simply masterwork.

At least let the NPCs make some spot checks. Maybe one of them cries out something like 'Watch out ! They have a [insert magical dodad here]!' .

Of course, if the party gets famous, bards will spread the words of their exploits. And bards love to embellish tales. Then you can even justify enemies to be prepared for or expecting even more from the PCs then they are actually capable of. Savvy players might use this for circumstance boni on intimidate checks though ....

Lycar

[Talic]

Yes, but your villainious sorceror won't know this until he tries it. And against low level (or rather, low hit-dice) threats, it is an excellent spell.

So, if he does know the sleep spell, it really ought to be his first choice, especially if the PCs do him the favour of approaching in 'fireball' formation.

Not having him try this is kinda metagaming. After all, the slavers don't know if the people attacking them are 1st level or 4th or 20th.

And once he realizes that the sleep spell didn't effect the PCs at all, then he will know that it is time to bring on the expensive expendables which they saved for a rainy day... like being attacked by adventurers.

Also you don't want to have all that expensive stuff fall into the greedy hands of your PCs, now do you.

Lycar

Not true. Trained personnel can look at others and tell in short order if they're disorganized rabble, or a well-oiled, efficient team.

The power of the buffs in place, the way the fighter stands to minimize the impacts of range, the way he can't see the rogue, the way the monk is positioned on his heels, ready to dodge anything at a moment's notice.

Further, the overall appearance of the equipment (lowbies don't run in encased in mithral full plate, with masterfully crafted flaming blades, and flying).

EDIT: This goes double if they're flying on horses with FLAMING HOOVES.

[KillianHawkeye]

I was also getting at the fact that a group of guardsmen for example wouldn't just have low powered equipment, but they probably all have the SAME equipment, outfits, etc. Whereas adventurers all have their own unique appearance, style, outfits, and equipment.