Gestalt as a LA?

[Gaiwecoor]

The title says it all: could a gestalt character work in a regular campaign as a character with a level adjustment?

According to the gestalt rules:

... In general, a party of four gestalt characters can handle multiple encounters with a single monster of a Challenge Rating equal to their average level + 1. If the monster poses a challenge because it forces the characters to succeed on life-threatening saving throws (such as with a medusa or a wyvern), it’s even weaker against gestalt characters, who have few or no weak saves. Characters can handle multiple encounters with such monsters at a Challenge Rating equal to their average level + 2. ...

Could this mean that a gestalt character could be allowed with a LA of +1? A LA of +2? Would this unbalance the game to mix gestalt in with regular folks?

Of course, this LA would be one that can't be bought off using the LA reduction rules.

[Fax Celestis]

No way. There's no way to reconcile gestalt with non-gestalt that I've ever seen that left everyone happy.

[Skjaldbakka]

I ran a mixed gestalt/non-gestalt game, and it worked out fine. Gestalt characters receive 1/2 the normal experience reward, to represent that they are splitting their focus.

I also didn't allow the allow gestalt characters to multiclass normally. The gestalt characters wind up at about 3/4 the party level, on average. It balanced out pretty evenly.

edit-
-Becoming gestalt was a function of plot (it was a literal joining of two souls in one body). It was also not an in-game decision, although I did ask the players if they were willing to have it happen.

[CASTLEMIKE]

IMO it would work best if the gestalt will be limited to noncasters for gestalts or NPC class gestalts like the Adept, Aristocrat, Expert, Gleaner (GitP), Magewright (ECS), and possible a sorcerer based Witch (DMG page 175) for full casters without variants applied (Battle Witch (Bard, Sorcerer, Wilder spring to mind)) or PRCs and enforcing the experience penalties for non humans and half elves or some other game rule exeception.

[Gaiwecoor]

No way. There's no way to reconcile gestalt with non-gestalt that I've ever seen that left everyone happy.

Hmm... I was suspecting as much. Of course, I'm always convinced that there's a way to do anything you want in this game. It just takes some time to figure it out.

I ran a mixed gestalt/non-gestalt game, and it worked out fine. Gestalt characters receive 1/2 the normal experience reward, to represent that they are splitting their focus.

1/2 XP? That seems pretty severe, though it's probably not. It would make the characters extremely powerful at low levels, but not so much at higher ones. Was that the only penalty to taking gestalt? Might a 75% penalty make it worth while, if the second gestalt class had to be an NPC class?

[Skjaldbakka]

Keep in mind that lower level PCs receive a higher base amount of XP. The end result is a 50% reduction of XP award puts them at 2/3 to 3/4 the average party level. I ran a game for two years with two characters gestalted this way. They were 17th level when the rest of the PCs hit 21st level (using non-epic rules). Also keep in mind that gestalt isn't as good as it looks, especially if you are lower in total level than the other party members. The lower HD matters.

You don't get as high an attack bonus, max skill ranks, saves, HP, spell levels, etc.

[CASTLEMIKE]

The other way to keep everyone happy is to give the players who want to play single class PCs a freebie +2 or +3 LA template or race but don't include the LA buydown variant in the game so gestalt PCs can't use LA buydown rules.

[Gaiwecoor]

Although the 50% XP probably works, it seems a little messy for me. (Kudos on figuring out that sweet spot, by the way ) I'd rather find something that works with an ECL, if possible. It would still give the lower HD, attack, spells and the like, but it's a fixed amount instead of something that changes as time goes on.

The other way to keep everyone happy is to give the players who want to play single class PCs a freebie +2 or +3 LA template or race but don't include the LA buydown variant in the game so gestalt PCs can't use LA buydown rules.

This is pretty close to what I was initially thinking - but does it really work? Does that keep the party power-balanced? I would probably allow LA buydown for the templates and races, but not gestalt... because, let's face it. At high levels, a human gestalt character can do a whole lot more than a single class drow.

So what would it be? To call the gestalt characters a +1 or +2 LA seems to fit along with how the variant is described... a +3 seems like it would be a bit much (I'm open to being convinced, though). I'd be willing to call it a +2 - especially if someone has tried it and thinks it works.

[Skjaldbakka]

I don't think a clean solution like that will work. You might consider giving a higher point buy to the non-gestalt characters, a stat boost every three levels instead of 4, and an extra bonus feat at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level.

[Wordmiser]

What I don't understand is why you would want to do this.

Why not just give everybody the option to gestalt? They don't have to ruin their concepts to do it (just slap Feat Rogue levels on the other side of the build and call it good).

[CASTLEMIKE]

This is pretty close to what I was initially thinking - but does it really work? Does that keep the party power-balanced? I would probably allow LA buydown for the templates and races, but not gestalt... because, let's face it. At high levels, a human gestalt character can do a whole lot more than a single class drow.

So what would it be? To call the gestalt characters a +1 or +2 LA seems to fit along with how the variant is described... a +3 seems like it would be a bit much (I'm open to being convinced, though). I'd be willing to call it a +2 - especially if someone has tried it and thinks it works.

It mostly depends on your game IMO for a few games it could be a lot of fun and only a little bit more work for a campaign it could be a lot more work.

What types of PCs do they normally play? Mixed group, Fighter/Rogue types, Fullcaster types and how optimized they normally are. Would they all be Pun Pun if they could?

Gestalt is a lot more powerful and is generally +2 LA (On par with the +2 LA Saint template IMO) because players don't normally suboptimize the class synergy like Monk - 20, Paladin - 20 they go Battle Sorcerer and take PRCs like MotAO and ACM maybe a level dip in Marshal to get Motivate Aura Charisma with Charisma and being able to cast in light armor without ASF and there are plenty of better ways to do it than that.

In a mixed group I'd say it's more 2&1/2 it will generally be better than taking a +2 LA tmeplate like Half Fey, Phrenic or Shadow Creature all strong +2 LA templates IMO.

Consider what a Factotum - 8, Monk -2, Marshal - 1 Motivate Aura Intelligence, Other Non PRC class levels 9 - X to personal taste bring to a 1D4 HD wizard or:

Beguiler - 20, Factotum - 3 or 8 (Extra action with IPs), Ur Priest -10, Marshal - 1 others to taste or:

Just Warblade -20 or Factotum - 20 or Beguiler - 20/Erudite - 20 with the Variant Spells to Power and cherry picking the best spells from all spell lists.

[Gaiwecoor]

Why not just give everybody the option to gestalt? They don't have to ruin their concepts to do it (just slap Feat Rogue levels on the other side of the build and call it good).

Well, of course everyone would have the option - the point is that some people would rather not. It's kind of strange, but that's how it is.

What types of PCs do they normally play? Mixed group, Fighter/Rogue types, Fullcaster types and how optimized they normally are. Would they all be Pun Pun if they could?

We have a good mixed group. While they play to their strengths, they don't go overboard with optimization (no - Pun Pun would not happen). I'll admit I don't know most of those classes you talked about; we play core plus a couple of the Complete books (Arcane and Adventurer).

There would be a couple of house rule limitations. Mostly, it builds off the idea that you shouldn't be able to do significantly more than a character of your level can do. For example: a lvl 9 gestalt character can't have higher than a lvl 9 caster level (no Wizard / Archmage combos). I think this tones down some of those things you were bringing up. Maybe I'm wrong.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Actually it wouldn't although gestalt rules don't let the PC cast spell better than normal spellcasting. Most of the examples were SAD or very minor Mad (Taking advantage of a decent charisma with a Marshal to motivate another main ability like Factotum (Int) or Wizard (Int) or Psion (normally Int).

The Factotum is a nice 1, 3, 8 (Mostly for spellcasting type classes) or 19 level class (better to take a level of Marshal for Motivating Intelligence Minor Aura with Charisma (even with a 10 for the stat and items it's not a bad deal IMO with Inspiration Points and the way they recover)). There is a nice handbook on it at Wizard's which gives a good ideal of what the class can do in the game. IMO a single level dip of Factotum is better than Fighter for going Eldritch Knight the way IPs work along with the Font of Inspiration feat)

The nice thing with the Warblade/Psion gestalt is Warblade brings D12 HD, Full BAB and is an intelligence based fighter with a good Fort save. The psion or erudite is intelliegence based, D4 HD, poor BAB and weapon proficiencies and no problems using psionics wearing armor along with a good Will save. Gestalt makes the PC D12 HD, Full BAB, Armor wearing Intelligence based "fighter and caster type" with 2 good saves Fort and Will who gets Battle Clarity (Reflex saves based on Intelligence).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I wrote up earlier today a gestalt with 3 (yes, 3) full caster advancements. Wiz3/Beguiler4/UltimateMagus7/Beg6//Druid3/ArcaneHeirophant4/Druid7/ArcaneHeirophant6. It's not even optimized, you end up with Wiz20, Druid20, and Beg17, and it took me under 10 minutes from idea to conception. If even one of your players might try this, you shouldn't gestalt. Just my 2cp.

[Skjaldbakka]

That build isn't legal for gestalt. There are two different hybrid PrCs, which are explicitly not allowed, for that very reason.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

That build isn't legal for gestalt. There are two different hybrid PrCs, which are explicitly not allowed, for that very reason.

A: Not at the same time.
B: I didn't know that, where is it?

[CASTLEMIKE]

Here's the link for gestalt:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...staltCharacter